Author Topic: My first pizza thread: Pete-zza's 2 day Papa John's clone attempt  (Read 810 times)

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Offline pepapi

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Hi guys, here is my attempt at Pete-zza's 2 day Papa John's clone from his epic stickied thread above.  I let it go 3 days due to unforeseen circumstances and it was still good.  I will try this one again!

Flour (100%):
Water (56%):
IDY (0.28%):
Salt (1.9%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5.55%):
Sugar (5.89%):
Total (169.62%):
339.29 g  |  11.97 oz | 0.75 lbs
190 g  |  6.7 oz | 0.42 lbs
0.95 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.32 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
6.45 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.16 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
18.83 g | 0.66 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.15 tsp | 1.38 tbsp
19.98 g | 0.7 oz | 0.04 lbs | 5.01 tsp | 1.67 tbsp
575.51 g | 20.3 oz | 1.27 lbs | TF = N/A

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My first pizza thread: Pete-zza's 2 day Papa John's clone attempt
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2016, 04:09:14 PM »
pepapi,

You did a very nice job with your first PJ clone pizza. Most of the PJ clones I came up with can tolerate a bit more fermentation time than I used or specified.

Can you tell me what type and brand of flour you used, and also the type and brand of cheese you used?

Also, how did you bake the pizza, that is, on what kind of pan or screen, in what kind of oven, at what rack position, and the oven temperature and bake time you used?

Peter

Offline parallei

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Re: My first pizza thread: Pete-zza's 2 day Papa John's clone attempt
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2016, 10:13:58 PM »
I don't look in this thread very often because this isn't a favorite style of mine.

That said, that is a great looking pie pepapi. :chef:

Offline pepapi

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Re: My first pizza thread: Pete-zza's 2 day Papa John's clone attempt
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2016, 10:39:38 PM »
pepapi,

You did a very nice job with your first PJ clone pizza. Most of the PJ clones I came up with can tolerate a bit more fermentation time than I used or specified.

Can you tell me what type and brand of flour you used, and also the type and brand of cheese you used?

Also, how did you bake the pizza, that is, on what kind of pan or screen, in what kind of oven, at what rack position, and the oven temperature and bake time you used?

Peter

Thanks for the kind words.  Can you tell me effect the extra day would have had on this dough?  If I had made a 2 day and put it next to my 3 day, would I notice?

Flour was Robin Hood Bread flour, I'm up in Canada and I absolutely can't get a hold of King Arthur although I would love to.

I just ran to get the mozza I used, it's the following:  Ziggy's Pizza Mozzarella cheese, stretched, 8% MF (what does this mean?), 52% moisture (good, bad?). ingredients: partly skimmed pasteurized milk, modified milk ingredients, bacterial culture, salt, calcium chloride, microbial enzyme.  Made by Loblaws Inc.  I'm not 100% happy with it, sometimes it goes into the "plasticky looking" phase when cooked well, not entirely sure what does that, is there any way to avoid it?  I'm thinking I just need to spend more on quality cheese, although this one isn't exactly free!

I'm all ears for a mozza that is better, I just need to know what to look for specifically.

Baked it on a perforated screen in my 36" Bluestar gas range, middle oven position with convection on @ 500 for about 10 minutes.  The funny thing is, I had mistakenly left my pizza steel on the middle rack and didn't want to take it out at 500, so I just left it in and put the perforated pizza pan right on top of it, hoping to get a crisp bottom...wrong, it was the most disappointing part actually.  Any tips for oven position, convection on/off, broiler, etc?  I have the other doughball in the fridge right now thawing, should be good to go again Thursday and would like to apply any tips you can offer.  Thanks.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 10:41:26 PM by pepapi »

Offline pepapi

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Re: My first pizza thread: Pete-zza's 2 day Papa John's clone attempt
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2016, 10:40:00 PM »
I don't look in this thread very often because this isn't a favorite style of mine.

That said, that is a great looking pie pepapi. :chef:

Thank you sir, which style is your preferred?

Offline parallei

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Re: My first pizza thread: Pete-zza's 2 day Papa John's clone attempt
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2016, 09:49:49 AM »
Thank you sir, which style is your preferred?

I guess with round pies, thinner and not quite so heavy on toppings.  On the other hand, I like Detroit style pies, so maybe I don't know!  I rarely add sugar or oil to any dough. 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My first pizza thread: Pete-zza's 2 day Papa John's clone attempt
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2016, 10:18:08 AM »
Thanks for the kind words.  Can you tell me effect the extra day would have had on this dough?  If I had made a 2 day and put it next to my 3 day, would I notice?

Flour was Robin Hood Bread flour, I'm up in Canada and I absolutely can't get a hold of King Arthur although I would love to.

I just ran to get the mozza I used, it's the following:  Ziggy's Pizza Mozzarella cheese, stretched, 8% MF (what does this mean?), 52% moisture (good, bad?). ingredients: partly skimmed pasteurized milk, modified milk ingredients, bacterial culture, salt, calcium chloride, microbial enzyme.  Made by Loblaws Inc.  I'm not 100% happy with it, sometimes it goes into the "plasticky looking" phase when cooked well, not entirely sure what does that, is there any way to avoid it?  I'm thinking I just need to spend more on quality cheese, although this one isn't exactly free!

I'm all ears for a mozza that is better, I just need to know what to look for specifically.

Baked it on a perforated screen in my 36" Bluestar gas range, middle oven position with convection on @ 500 for about 10 minutes.  The funny thing is, I had mistakenly left my pizza steel on the middle rack and didn't want to take it out at 500, so I just left it in and put the perforated pizza pan right on top of it, hoping to get a crisp bottom...wrong, it was the most disappointing part actually.  Any tips for oven position, convection on/off, broiler, etc?  I have the other doughball in the fridge right now thawing, should be good to go again Thursday and would like to apply any tips you can offer.  Thanks.
pepati,

I will try to answer your questions in the order you presented them.

An extra day of cold fermentation is unlikely to have much of an effect on the finished product. But this answer presumes that the conditions to which the dough is subjected remain the same. And in a typical home setting, and all else being equal, the factor that most governs the fermentation of the dough is the refrigerator temperature. So, if the refrigerator runs on the warm side, then the dough will ferment faster, and if it runs on the cool side, then the dough will ferment more slowly. In most households, the refrigerator temperature will vary because of the way that members of the household go in an out of the refrigerator over the course of the day. But, even then, I don't think the final product will vary much in either direction because of the extra day of cold fermentation. At least not to my palate.

As for the flour you used--the Robin Hood bread flour--it is a good flour. But here in the U.S., even the King Arthur bread flour (KABF) would not be the equal to the flour that Papa John's uses. The flour that PJ uses is milled exclusively for them and has a protein content that is higher than either the KABF or the Robin Hood flour that you used.

I am not familiar with the mozzarella cheese you used, or any other Canadian mozzarella cheeses for that matter. In the U.S, grading and labeling of cheeses is governed by the FDA and the USDA and maybe other governmental agencies. But the expression MF stand for milk fat. To get a better understanding about Canadian cheeses, you might take a look at this document:

http://www.danlac.com/news/understanding-how-cheese-made-and-what-look-cheese-labels

My best advice is to look for mozzarella cheeses that are just mozzarella cheeses without any fillers or other additives and that require that you grate them. From a flavor and quality standpoint, that will put you a step ahead of PJ itself, whose mozzarella cheese contains the following ingredients:

Part skim mozzarella cheese, modified food starch, sugarcane fiber, whey protein concentrate, sodium citrate, sodium propionate
(http://www.papajohns.com/company/papa-johns-ingredients.html)

I am perhaps not going to be much help to you with respect to your oven and the oven configuration and bake protocol you used. When I was trying to replicate the PJ pizzas, I used only my standard electric home oven and a pizza screen and no convection feature. But the dough and the oven have to be compatible in order to achieve the desired end results. That usually means having to master how your oven works and, once having achieved that, how to make the dough work in that particular oven. Some time ago, I set forth some of the ways that I have used my oven over the years, at Reply 45 at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2223.msg20965#msg20965

The above examples are for a NY style pizza, but the principles still apply to an American style of pizza also but with a greater degree of attention being given to the dough as it bakes because of the high amount of sugar in the dough that can lead to premature or excessive bottom crust burning. In this vein, I might add that it wasn't clear to me from your photos whether you were using a disk with perforations or a mesh-type pizza screen. You can see what a pizza screen looks like at:

https://www.katom.com/370-PS14.html

Once you clarify what you are actually using, maybe I can offer some additional advice.

Peter



Offline pepapi

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Re: My first pizza thread: Pete-zza's 2 day Papa John's clone attempt
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2016, 10:44:02 AM »
pepati,

I will try to answer your questions in the order you presented them.

An extra day of cold fermentation is unlikely to have much of an effect on the finished product. But this answer presumes that the conditions to which the dough is subjected remain the same. And in a typical home setting, and all else being equal, the factor that most governs the fermentation of the dough is the refrigerator temperature. So, if the refrigerator runs on the warm side, then the dough will ferment faster, and if it runs on the cool side, then the dough will ferment more slowly. In most households, the refrigerator temperature will vary because of the way that members of the household go in an out of the refrigerator over the course of the day. But, even then, I don't think the final product will vary much in either direction because of the extra day of cold fermentation. At least not to my palate.

As for the flour you used--the Robin Hood bread flour--it is a good flour. But here in the U.S., even the King Arthur bread flour (KABF) would not be the equal to the flour that Papa John's uses. The flour that PJ uses is milled exclusively for them and has a protein content that is higher than either the KABF or the Robin Hood flour that you used.

I am not familiar with the mozzarella cheese you used, or any other Canadian mozzarella cheeses for that matter. In the U.S, grading and labeling of cheeses is governed by the FDA and the USDA and maybe other governmental agencies. But the expression MF stand for milk fat. To get a better understanding about Canadian cheeses, you might take a look at this document:

http://www.danlac.com/news/understanding-how-cheese-made-and-what-look-cheese-labels

My best advice is to look for mozzarella cheeses that are just mozzarella cheeses without any fillers or other additives and that require that you grate them. From a flavor and quality standpoint, that will put you a step ahead of PJ itself, whose mozzarella cheese contains the following ingredients:

Part skim mozzarella cheese, modified food starch, sugarcane fiber, whey protein concentrate, sodium citrate, sodium propionate
(http://www.papajohns.com/company/papa-johns-ingredients.html)

I am perhaps not going to be much help to you with respect to your oven and the oven configuration and bake protocol you used. When I was trying to replicate the PJ pizzas, I used only my standard electric home oven and a pizza screen and no convection feature. But the dough and the oven have to be compatible in order to achieve the desired end results. That usually means having to master how your oven works and, once having achieved that, how to make the dough work in that particular oven. Some time ago, I set forth some of the ways that I have used my oven over the years, at Reply 45 at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2223.msg20965#msg20965

The above examples are for a NY style pizza, but the principles still apply to an American style of pizza also but with a greater degree of attention being given to the dough as it bakes because of the high amount of sugar in the dough that can lead to premature or excessive bottom crust burning. In this vein, I might add that it wasn't clear to me from your photos whether you were using a disk with perforations or a mesh-type pizza screen. You can see what a pizza screen looks like at:

https://www.katom.com/370-PS14.html

Once you clarify what you are actually using, maybe I can offer some additional advice.

Peter

I should have specified, I am using a 14" pan with what looks to be quarter inch holes, not like the mesh one you sent me.  I think that one would certainly get me a better bottom as it would allow more heat in.  I put my pan in at room temperature and the holes are probably too spaced out to really get a good bottom to it. 

Wondering if anyone has any advice about the convection.  I'm NEVER sure whether to use it in a variety of conditions.  I've heard it increases the brown on the crust, a good to know I guess but not sure about browning of bottom for example.  Since the heat comes from the bottom, I figure if I turn the convec off it would make the bottom cook faster than the top, so in my case not a bad thing since it was a bit underdone.

Long story short, time for another cook to see if I can answer some of these lingering thoughts :)

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My first pizza thread: Pete-zza's 2 day Papa John's clone attempt
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2016, 12:16:30 PM »
I should have specified, I am using a 14" pan with what looks to be quarter inch holes, not like the mesh one you sent me.  I think that one would certainly get me a better bottom as it would allow more heat in.  I put my pan in at room temperature and the holes are probably too spaced out to really get a good bottom to it. 
pepapi.

Over the past several years, PJ has actually been transitioning from screens to perforated disks, such as shown, for example, at:

https://www.etundra.com/kitchen-supplies/baking-supplies/baking-pans/pizza/perforated-disk/american-metalcraft-18914sphc-14-in-superperforated-pizza-disk/?utm_source=google+product&utm_medium=organic,

but there are some franchisees who may still be using up their screens before going to the perforated disks, which are orders of magnitude more expensive than the screens.

I have never used a perforated disk to make a PJ clone because at the time I started the PJ clone thread most of the PJ stores were using screens. But I have tried using a perforated disk in my home electric oven, but it led to bottom crust browning issues. Because the disk is cold when it goes in the oven, it has to get up to a certain temperature before the crust can even start to cook. That takes time while the top is already cooking ahead of the warmup of the disk. If I had the convection feature in my oven and had I used it, the top might have been finished baking before the bottom crust was done. And that crust would not be crispy. Usually one of the best ways to get a crispier bottom crust, especially when the dough contains a fair amount of oil and sugar, both of which contribute to a tenderness in the finished crust and crumb, is to use a lower bake temperature and a longer bake time. But, even then, you have to watch the progress of the pizza, and especially the bottom crust color development. Once you get the desired bottom crust and the top is not quite done, you can always lift the pizza to a higher oven position, or even turn on the broiler for a brief period, to get more top crust heat and coloration.

Peter

Offline pepapi

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Re: My first pizza thread: Pete-zza's 2 day Papa John's clone attempt
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2016, 12:50:26 PM »
pepapi.

Over the past several years, PJ has actually been transitioning from screens to perforated disks, such as shown, for example, at:

https://www.etundra.com/kitchen-supplies/baking-supplies/baking-pans/pizza/perforated-disk/american-metalcraft-18914sphc-14-in-superperforated-pizza-disk/?utm_source=google+product&utm_medium=organic,

but there are some franchisees who may still be using up their screens before going to the perforated disks, which are orders of magnitude more expensive than the screens.

I have never used a perforated disk to make a PJ clone because at the time I started the PJ clone thread most of the PJ stores were using screens. But I have tried using a perforated disk in my home electric oven, but it led to bottom crust browning issues. Because the disk is cold when it goes in the oven, it has to get up to a certain temperature before the crust can even start to cook. That takes time while the top is already cooking ahead of the warmup of the disk. If I had the convection feature in my oven and had I used it, the top might have been finished baking before the bottom crust was done. And that crust would not be crispy. Usually one of the best ways to get a crispier bottom crust, especially when the dough contains a fair amount of oil and sugar, both of which contribute to a tenderness in the finished crust and crumb, is to use a lower bake temperature and a longer bake time. But, even then, you have to watch the progress of the pizza, and especially the bottom crust color development. Once you get the desired bottom crust and the top is not quite done, you can always lift the pizza to a higher oven position, or even turn on the broiler for a brief period, to get more top crust heat and coloration.

Peter

Your responses are excellent, thank you.  That disk is almost exactly what mine looks like except i have a lip around it.  I will try again with the perforated pan, with NO convection and I will move the pan to the bottom rack.  if I need to, I'll crank up the broiler and finish up the top.  I'll post the updated results in this thread or a new one.

One last question: is a pizza steel for this dough just not something that can be done without burning due to the sugar content?
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 01:55:06 PM by pepapi »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My first pizza thread: Pete-zza's 2 day Papa John's clone attempt
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2016, 03:10:28 PM »
One last question: is a pizza steel for this dough just not something that can be done without burning due to the sugar content?
pepapi,

I do not own a steel so I have not had a chance to test its use. But from what I have read in posts by other members, its use seems to be better for NY style and similar types of pizzas, which typically contain little or no sugar in the dough. And the bake temperature seems to be around 600 degrees F. At such a temperature, I think that a PJ clone dough with its high levels of sugar would end up with an overbaked bottom crust. Maybe it is possible to lower the temperature of the steel and bake a PJ clone pizza but that is something that one would have to put to the test. I know that we have had members bake PJ clone pizzas on pizza stones rather than on screens--despite my warnings that they do not do so--and they have been successful, but they monitored the bottom bake quite closely because of the increased risk of the bottom crust burning because of the high sugar level. In the commercial pizza making world, pizzas with high sugar doughs tend to be baked on conveyor ovens rather than deck ovens. In fact, when pizza operators have trouble baking such doughs in deck ovens, as a first step toward correcting that problem Tom Lehmann routinely counsels them to remove or significantly reduce the amount of sugar or other ingredients like milk or eggs from their doughs. You can see an example of Tom's advice in that regard in the thread at the PMQ Think Tank at:

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/problems-with-new-ovens.13332/

Peter

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Re: My first pizza thread: Pete-zza's 2 day Papa John's clone attempt
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2016, 07:24:23 PM »
Prepapi what a flawless pie! Look how perfectly round! Looks very tasty too. :chef: :pizza: ^^^
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