Author Topic: Quality NY toppings & techniques  (Read 52237 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #100 on: August 31, 2005, 01:14:56 PM »
Michael,

Welcome to the forum.

The dried dairy whey I am talking about is a dairy product (it's a by-product of cheesemaking) but it is not dried milk, although dried milk (preferably high-heat baker's grade) is often used by professionals as an alternative to the dried dairy whey. I found my dried dairy whey in the bulk bins at Whole Foods but I believe Bob's Red Mill (and others) sell it in packaged form. It is quite inexpensive. I use around 3% by weight of flour for the doughs I have made.

Potatoes are sometimes used in deep-dish doughs. The potatoes can be fresh or dry (usually in potato flour form). Potato flakes (like the kind sold in the supermarket) usually have bisulfites added. The bisulfites prevent discoloration of the potatoes but they can also impair yeast activity. It's not surprising to find potatoes in one form or another in baked goods. When I was at the supermarket the other day, I found potatoes (potato flour) listed as an ingredient in several brands of breads, buns and rolls, and donuts. Of course, gnocchi (pasta) is based on potatoes (fresh, not in powder form).

Peter


Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #101 on: August 31, 2005, 04:49:27 PM »
Vitamin C = Ascorbic acid.

I am sure you can find many ionformation on the use of ascorbic acid as an improver in dough.

Offline giotto

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Re: Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #102 on: August 31, 2005, 09:10:05 PM »
When working with dairy products such as milk, keep in mind that lactose can help brown the crust, and the fats soften the dough.  So you need to account for these things if complementing sugars (for browning) and oils (for softening).  Although dairy (cheese) whey did not give me much of a softening effect, it was employed also for the browning process within the A16 Neapolitan project, where no sugars and Caputo flour were employed.  Potato bread is good stuff, often soft.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2005, 09:13:37 PM by giotto »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #103 on: August 31, 2005, 09:22:00 PM »
giotto,

You raise a good point. When I used the dairy whey (apart from the Caputo 00 doughs), it was in a dough recipe that called for no sugar and only 1% oil.

Peter

Offline giotto

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Re: Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #104 on: August 31, 2005, 09:31:15 PM »
Pete-zza:

As you mentioned, dairy whey could not be consumed by yeast, which is another advantage I look for.  Apparently it's the lactose in dairy whey that can't be consumed by strains of commercial or wild yeast...
« Last Edit: September 02, 2005, 04:41:44 AM by giotto »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #105 on: August 31, 2005, 09:58:22 PM »
giotto,

The dairy whey includes lactose, which I believe is the only simple sugar that is not metabolized by yeast. It also has one of the lowest sweetness factors among sugars so it doesn't contribute much to sweetness. You get better color in the crust but very little sweetness. That's a nice combination, especially for supplementing flours with protein levels too low to provide much browning.

Peter

Offline giotto

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Re: Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #106 on: August 31, 2005, 10:32:09 PM »
While it is not consumed by yeast, it is converted to lactic acid by bacterial fermentation, which potentially adds character to taste over time. 
« Last Edit: September 03, 2005, 03:02:40 AM by giotto »

Offline giotto

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Re: Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #107 on: September 21, 2005, 08:54:12 PM »
Just picked up a new book, Pizza More than 60 recipes for homemade pizza, by Tony Gemignani. I covered it under the book reviews, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1909.0.html.

My review of this pizza book is simple, it sure helps when you you have Tony's World Champion team stature to bring insights from top pizzerias into New York and so many other styles.  There is a lot of talent wrapped inside this book.  I'm excited to try recipes that were first reviewed by top pizzerias in the nation.  I think Peter Reinhart has an excellent point regarding Tony's passion to spur the pizza renaissance in America to greater heights.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2005, 08:56:39 PM by giotto »

Offline giotto

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Re: Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #108 on: September 23, 2005, 10:31:46 PM »
I thought that I would update this thread with pictures addressing the desire for more of a Ciabatta feel and voids in the cornicione (outer edge), since many other points regarding this topic are mentioned in this thread.  Here's some guidelines that have helped me here.

After the dough first comes together, I give it a short rest so I can gauge the water saturation of the dough (nothing worse than prematurely adding flour or water, especially since all ingredients are based on the flour weight). I try to simulate hand kneading with very short spurts on my small kitchenaid, run at the lowest level, which is interweaved with hand kneading.  This avoids friction and the less you knead, the more Ciabatta-like the feel (as shown in pictures earlier). The dough is smooth, and it gives a decent stretch when I pull at it.
(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/New-York-pizza-dough.JPG)

I pushed down the dough once and kneaded it during refrigeration to release alcohol and move food sources around for fermentation. 24 hours later, I removed this dough and let it come to room temp.  I don't expeet a rise or much activity from the yeast while in the refrigerator.  This has been my experience with many Ma and Pa pro dough that I have purchased as well. Since this dough contained 25% Caputo, I wasn't too worried about this short time in the refrigerator since Caputo produces a great taste. I wasn't looking for a sour taste, which is more likely over 3 days or better yet with a starter.   
(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/New-York-pizza-dough-24hrs.JPG)

After leaving it out for about an hour, I stretched it in the air.  Since our ovens are run at lower temps than brick ovens, I like to pre-heat the dough at 550F first to ensure separation of skin (Ciabata feel) among other advantages.
(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/New-York-pizza-dough-oven.JPG)

I use a screen, because it gives me control over exactly how I want to get the pizza.  In this case, I expected to get a lighter upper crust since I didn't use Sugar.  But I wanted a fairly well done bottom.  You can even take the pizza right off the screen and put it on a rack, upper or lower.
(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/New-York-pizza-bottom.JPG)

I expected a bit of breadiness as per a friend's request since the other 75% of the crust was made of regular unbleached Bread flour.  Fats help provide softness, such as oils and milk (which also provides some browning with its lactose).  I used about 1 TBL of fats.  I prefer Active yeast for delayed fermentation. I only had Instant, so I used just over 1/4 tsp.  As you can see, I still got more of an outer edge than I prefer; BUT it immediately drops down to a thin slice, which is good with an airy crust... kind of a Neapolitan look with a New York Meatball pizza outcome.
(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/New-York-pizza-slice.JPG)

 



« Last Edit: September 23, 2005, 10:42:24 PM by giotto »

Offline giotto

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Re: Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #109 on: September 28, 2005, 04:40:20 AM »
Pete-zza:

Trump is good stuff.  I tried a dough from a Pro nearby that used it, 100%. He tamed it a bit with milk fat along with oil though. 

Good to know that the 25% used at DiFara's is Trump, along with his 00 flour.  Mixing is pretty prevalent with 00 flours apparently... According to Reinhart, the DOC approved pizzerias that he visited in Naples all mixed with American flour.

Based on what I hear of Chris Bianco's time, I'm still blown away that he took time to talk to you.  He mentioned to you that he mixes with Giusto's... which is very unique, since he says that it feels like a disservice to give out secrets since people might think they are the reason it comes out sooo good.  Albatardi told me it was real good... thin and crispy, with the best toppings. I just founds out that Chris uses heirloom tomatoes... a favorite of mine from local farmers. 

Have you had a chance to visit Bianco's? I want to try the Wiseguy. I don't see his classes online; wonder if they are available still... Don't see a web site.  Although, based on his James Beard Award ceremony, a comment was made when he did not put pizza on the menu "It is a testament to his integrity that, without his signature wood-fired oven, there will be no pizza." 


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #110 on: September 28, 2005, 08:54:13 AM »
giotto,

It was Marco Bianco, Chris' brother, that I spoke with. Chris was unavailable at the time, so I might have spoken to him if he had answered the phone instead of Marco. Apparently Marco and Chris get calls all the time to talk about pizza, often from reporters and writers, so Marco seemed used to it. But we talked for a long time, and he didn't try to cut the conversation short, which he could have easily done. I have discovered time and time again in talking with people in the business that there is a certain kinship that develops out of the love of pizza, and they love to talk about pizza as much a I do. And if you have a good grounding in the subject, they don't talk down to you. They talk to you like an equal.

I haven't yet visited Pizzeria Bianco. My son and his family have a home in Scottsdale, but my last several visits with them have been in Mexico.

Peter

Offline giotto

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Re: Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #111 on: September 28, 2005, 01:48:37 PM »
Along those lines, the lesson that I've learned over time is that there are those owners who are into it, and willing to exchange accordingly, and then there are those owners who only know their recipe.  There's no guarantees in either case; but you can pretty well tell the difference.

In Reno, I stopped by a place that bragged of their NY authenticity.  It took awhile; but the owner finally warmed up, and then he decided to leverage my knowlege by asking if I thought it was authentic.  He had no idea because he bought the place some time ago and had never been to New York, nor researched the subject.  He was using a good flour; but the pizza suffered accordingly, including some really thick bad tasting sauce.  I wish I had ordered their Meatball sandwich, which looked much better. 

At A16, the first time I sat at the bar in front of the oven, I introduced my interests and the pizzaiolo said that anything I wanted to know, he'd be happy to answer.  What an exchange.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #112 on: September 30, 2005, 09:20:08 PM »
After having made a Lehmann NY style pizza recently, and while it was still fresh on my mind, I decided to try Peter Reinhart’s NY style pizza dough recipe as set forth in his book American Pie at page 114. I wanted to see how that recipe compares with those I have been using to make Lehmann doughs for over a year.

According to the book, the Reinhart NY style dough recipe makes three 12-ounce dough balls. Since no baker’s percents are given, and since no pizza size (diameter) is specified for the dough balls, I decided to calculate the baker’s percents for the Reinhart recipe and to modify the recipe to produce a single dough ball sufficient to make a 16-inch pizza. To parallel the Lehmann NY style, I assumed a thickness factor (TF) value of 0.10, which is characteristic of a NY style and a common value I frequently use to make the Lehmann doughs. The baker’s percents I calculated for the Reinhart recipe are as follows:

100%, Flour (high-gluten)
2.81%, Sugar
1.75%, Salt (regular)
0.71%, Instant dry yeast (IDY)
6.58%, Oil (Bertoli light olive oil)
62.4%, Water (70 degrees F)

Just looking at the baker’s percents, I concluded that the dough would be on the sweet side and with a soft and tender crumb. By contrast, the basic Lehmann dough recipe uses no sugar (unless the dough is to be held beyond 48 hours) and the oil is at 1%. Once the oil gets above 6%, it will usually manifest itself as a soft crumb in the crust. Additionally, the yeast level of the basic Lehmann dough recipe is about a third of that called for in the Reinhart recipe. This is not per se a problem, although it will increase the amount and rate of fermentation of the dough. In other words, the dough will rise more and faster, even while in the refrigerator.

In making the Reinhart dough, I followed the Reinhart instructions exactly, including the specified mixing procedure (4 minutes at low speed), the 5-minute rest, the final kneading step (2 minutes at medium-low speed), and a one-hour rest before putting the dough (in a sealed storage bag) into the refrigerator. The finished dough weighed 19.90 ounces and had a finished dough temperature of 78.4 degrees F. The dough remained in the refrigerator for 24 hours. During that time, the dough rose substantially and spread out to fill the storage bag completely, as I expected it would do.

After removing the dough from the refrigerator, I placed it (covered with a sheet of plastic wrap) on my countertop for 2 hours before shaping. The dough was extremely extensible (stretchy), far more, in fact, than the Lehmann doughs. However, I had no problem shaping and stretching it into a 16-inch skin to fit my 16-inch pizza screen. The skin was dressed in simple pepperoni style, and baked in a 500-degree F preheated oven, at the second rack position from the top, for about 5 minutes. The pizza was then shifted off of the screen onto a pizza stone (a rectangular stone) that had been placed at the lowest oven rack position and preheated for an hour at the abovementioned 500-degree F temperature. The pizza finished baking on the stone for about 2 to 3 minutes.

The photos below show the finished product. As I expected, the crust was very sweet--far more than I personally like. Also, the crumb was very soft and tender rather than chewy. I attribute this to the high levels of oil in the dough. If these are characteristics that one enjoys, then the pizza will be satisfying. The crust did exhibit most of the characteristics of a NY style, including crispiness of the rim, drooping tips in the slices, decent browning (at the rim and on the bottom) and a good flavor. I am always hesitant to comment on matters of personal taste, but I personally prefer the Lehmann NY style. I guess that is to be expected. I have been making Lehmann pizzas for over a year, and my taste buds have been programmed and sensitized to the Lehmann style.

I will be happy to provide the specific ingredient list I used to anyone who would like it.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #113 on: September 30, 2005, 09:23:28 PM »
And...slices


Offline giotto

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Re: Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #114 on: September 30, 2005, 10:14:56 PM »
Actually, his 12 oz dough balls are supposed to make 12" pizzas, as provided in each of his NY style recipes starting on page 194 to 196.  Since the end result may vary based on the cornicione you choose to create, I see no problem with this size.  He gives exact ounces of flour and water to for calculation.

You can validate your calculations of dry ingredients by seeing if they conform to the ratios he provides, once tbl or tsp is determined for any one ingredient when working with a small amount of flour.  If your calculation produces 1 TBL olive oil, for example, then sugar should be 1/2 of that amount.  Salt should be close to 1/2 sugar, etc.  If this conforms, then you know your % are in the range.

These things are so close in proximity that it reminds me of a recipe that I saw in an old cookbook that called for 1/3 c water to 1 c flour (about 60%), 1 tsp salt for 10 oz of flour, double the sugar, etc. In the end, it depends what you are looking for.  If you want softer crust, for example, you soften it with fats accordingly.  If you want to toughen the structure, you increase the protein level, etc. You can even increase the effect of steaming potentially by increasing the proportion of water.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2005, 10:47:52 PM by giotto »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #115 on: September 30, 2005, 10:47:48 PM »
giotto,

When I calculated the total weights for the ingredients specified in the recipe at page 114, I got closer to 39 ounces, or about 13 ounces per dough ball. I suspected each dough ball would make a 12-inch pizza, but the instructions at pages 114-115 do not specify a size, as one might reasonably expect.  All that is said at pages 114-115 is to roll out the dough balls. The preamble to the recipe says the dough should be rolled out to 1/4 inch. Since I wanted 16 inches, it didn't much matter once I got the baker's percents and selected the thickness factor (0.10) that I use for the Lehmann doughs. Using 12 inches for a 13-ounce dough ball would have given me a thickness factor of around 0.115.

As for the baker's percents, the flour is given by weight (22 1/2 ounces) but the rest of the ingredients are specified in volumes. I weighed the water (1 3/4 cups) but otherwise used my standard conversion factors to convert the remaining ingredients from volumes to weights. I then calculated the baker's percents. Some people have criticized the American Pie book because they wanted baker's percents laid out in black and white, as Peter Reinhart has apparently done in previous books on breadmaking. I would have preferred that also, but I don't expect it in a book intended primarily for home pizza makers.

Peter

Offline giotto

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Re: Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #116 on: September 30, 2005, 11:03:10 PM »
Pete-zza:

The way the book is layed out, he first shares the dough making, then he shows you how to use it in later recipes.  As mentioned above, on pages 194 - 196, his NY recipes tell you to use the 12 oz dough balls to make 12" pizzas.  I agree, it would be nice if he just told you up front; but I wanted to assure you that his goal was to provide 12" pizzas with 12oz doughs, as provided in each of his NY recipes later in the book.  He takes you through the same process for each of his doughs (e.g., Neapolitan 6 oz doughs make 9" pizzas in his recipes).

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #117 on: September 30, 2005, 11:23:08 PM »
giotto,

You were editing your earlier post as I was replying to it. You are correct that you can use rough ratios for the small, lightweight ingredients. Since I decided to use a spreadsheet to do all the work, I simply selected the pizza size (16 inches), thickness factor (0.10), and the baker's percents as I calculated them from the Reinhart recipe. I even embedded the conversion factors into the spreadsheet to convert from weight to volume for the salt, sugar, yeast, water, and oil. So, everything was laid out in front of me to use.

Peter

Offline giotto

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Re: Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #118 on: September 30, 2005, 11:29:20 PM »
I was suggesting to use his dry ratios to validate the end calculations.  I used to do this with his recipes.  After I performed the calculations, and I created the 1st recipe in TBL/tsp, I checked if my ratios were comparable to his recipes, which they should be.  If so, then I knew the % were what he had in mind.  Your oil for example is more than double the sugar, which is different for him potentially if this occurs once you break it into TBLs.  If it does, then you need to lighten the oil.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2005, 11:36:33 PM by giotto »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #119 on: September 30, 2005, 11:38:01 PM »
giotto,

You may not remember, but I tried the Reinhart recipe once before but made the mistake of using tablespoons of salt instead of teaspoons. That's when I should have done a check like you suggested. Needless to say, the pizza was a disaster :).

Peter


 

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