Quality NY toppings & techniques

[Pete-zza]

Giotto,

I think a big part of the problem is that the equipment used by professionals is so much different from what we use in a home environment, which they look upon as being "toys" compared with what they use.  They have the Hobarts, the coolers which are different than our home refrigerators, they have temperature and humidity controlled proofing equipment, and so on.  Because of that, I suspect there are a lot of unique aspects of dough processing that we also will not know about or be able to replicate at home.  And, finally, there are the tricks of the trade and the "art" aspects of dough making.  And many of those are likely to be uniquely tied to their equipment.  If there was some technical revelation that we could identify, such as when is the best time to add the yeast and at what temperature to add it, then we might be able to incorporate that revelation into our home operations, but even then, we might not succeed because the home operating environment is so much different.   We may be more likely to improve our pizzas by looking at what other home bakers do rather than what the professionals do because the similarities among home bakers are greater than between home bakers and professionals.

Peter

[giotto]

I learned a long time ago to pick up the secrets from the best.  In the case of certain ingredients of the pizza, I relied completely on my own family's instincts and non-professionals in general.  But with New York crusts, pros are often the best source to "leverage" to become the best at what we do.  Sometimes, though, it requires us to relate their techniques to our own environment and ultimately think out of the box to develop our own formula.  While some worry about temperatures of dough to achieve best results, for example, others worry about getting it in the refrigerator as quickly as possible to reduce its temperature and slow down yeast activity.  Putting the yeast in at a later state so it has minimal effect before refrigeration aims toward the same objective for me.  

For a professional though, this may be important to increase the amount of time that the dough will last; while I may leverage this technique to draw out more of the acids and sugars for the palate.  Putting the pieces together and watching them evolve into some great is the fun part for me.

Were you able to find any trace of the all purpose?

[Pete-zza]

 I wonder what the exact correlations are between active yeast and various dough temperatures when adding active yeast dry.  I'll have to ask about the temp of the dough at the end.  

I don't know if the following answers your question, but maybe it will help explain the effects of temperature on yeast performance: http://www.theartisan.net/dough_fermentation_and_temperature.htm The information at this site would seem to suggest that if active dry yeast (or any other form of yeast) is added to a dough mixture, it is likely to work best when it is within the most favorable range for yeast multiplication, no matter when in the sequence of operations the yeast is added.  

Peter

[giotto]

The sequence of operation in and of itself is not at question here.  It's elapsed times when yeast hits refrigeration that's significant, since refrigeration slows down yeast activity.  Earlier notes give examples of elapsed times as such.

Thanks for the site, I'll check it out.

[Pete-zza]

Giotto,

Now I get it.  Adding the yeast at the end of the process and going to refrigeration would certainly affect the duration of fermentation and allow you to extend the time before you have to use the dough.  I wonder how the fermentation by-products would be affected.  

Peter

[giotto]

Pete-zza:

You got it.  And positive by-products should develop out of it.

Rehydration of the proteins in the flour start very early in the mix cycle, and if refrigeration causes a negative impact on their gluten formation, then it's a problem of refrigeration in general.

The same holds true with starches, which enable enzymes to release sugars from the starches very early in the mix cycle.  

While refrigeration slows down yeast activity, the structure of the dough continues to strengthen, and sugars continue to be released, while other tasty treats like acids continue to develop.  Since most of the sugars are released within 8 hours, the only remaining tastes are really associated with the acids that are produced.  I have witnessed this first hand in many cases.  The secret however is to make sure that the yeast activity develops enough to create those neat little air bubbles that we hope to see when first preparing the dough.  

[giotto]

I purchased some non-hydrogenated palm oil today (vegetable shortening without trans fats).  A raw dough that I purchase uses this ingredient, along with a flour with an industry standard of 14% protein.  It doesn't seem to deaden the dough, which can happen sometimes with oils.  The raw dough's texture is extensible (easy to stretch) with some elasticity (it will pull back a little).  Not the best tossing dough; but it forms a nice New York crust that is strong with a nice crunch.

I'll be using Giusto's high protein flour that I've been playing with for awhile (13.5%).  I'm switching out olive oil for the vegetable shortening to see if there is a difference.    

[giotto]

This New York style crust is worth a 2nd try in an effort to test the consistency for my own sake and others as well.  

(http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/slice.JPG)

The following ingredients, realizations and processes were key to the end result:

- I used a palm oil (non-hydrogenated vegetable shortening) instead of my usual olive or canola oil.  Similar to what your experiences with how butter can impose on the dough if not applied properly, I had similar experiences with oils mixed in with the dough.  I remembered one of my favorite pro doughs using non-hydrogenated no trans fat vegetable shortening, so I pulled out my ol' calculator and decided that less than a TBL should do the job.  And it did.  

- As I studied sugar more and more, I learned a few things.  First, it was naturally feeding the very source that I was trying to keep in check (yeast), and I was unable to maintain that relatively flat texture in the refrigerator, without giving up the soft bubbly texture-- regardless of salt usage.  Second, it's hydroscopic nature was keeping the moisture in; but at the same time, I learned that it was shielding the moisture as well.  Last, by reverse engineering a favorite tasting pro dough, checking with another favorite pro and putting one and one together on a 3rd, I realized neither was using sugar.  

Since I was using a higher gluten flour in this recipe (Giusto's 13.5% high protein flour), I decided that I may actually get a better taste without sugar.  So I ditched it, and I got a really naturally good tasting dough.

- I've always worried about color of the outer crust.  But I noticed that a crust at one of my favorite small pizzerias was light sometimes.  I left this in the refrigeration for more than 14 hours, probably a couple of hours longer than I should have in this case.  It was a bit lighter on top than I'm used to at 530 F, but the taste, bottom, crispiness and ability to fold it was very satisfying.

- I have messed with salt proportions more than I've touched a frigin calculator.  When I reverse engineered a pro dough, I was amazed to find that it contained an amount that I've used in the past.  So without the sugar, I decided to stick with just a touch over 3/4 tsp of salt for the 11 oz (just under 2 1/2 cups) of flour that I employed.

- As far as the one ingredient I'm forever trying to tame, I decided to use maybe a pinch over 1/2 tsp of Active Yeast.  I proofed it this time, because it was a disaster the one time I tried not to proof it.  I also added it after my first rehydration (rest) period.  

1st Rehydration rest period, after dough starts to come together, and before yeast was added:

(http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/rehydrate.JPG)

After active yeast and proofed water is added, and a couple of more minutes of mixing:
(http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/donedough.JPG)

- I like to include all fluids as part of the 60% calculation of flour, and I like to include the active yeast water & oils in this percentage.  I also like to avoid adding flour unexpectantly, since so many ingredients rely on it.  Knowing that I needed to include a TBL of water for the 1/2 tsp Active Yeast, and just under this for non-hydro palm oil, I went with 6 oz of room temp water (giving a total of about 6 1/2 oz of fluids).

Outside of ingredients, I worried about oxidization.  I know many pros use a lower level on their hobarts, so I decided to replicate mixing by hand.  I kept my kitchenaid at Level 1, mixed under 10 minutes total time (often stirring for a minute at a time which certainly mimics what I can do manually), and with room temp water, I ended with 78 F dough.  Well, I hope I didn't take you through all this unnecessarily, and I can get it to work a 2nd time; it will be worth posting as a summary recipe then.

I got a bit frustrated when I saw how extensible the dough was after an initial whirl in the air shortly after taking it out of the refrigerator.  Some people prefer this, since they extend it on the table.  I like elastic dough, where I have more control over where the dough is thin and thick.  

So I decided to flip it from top to bottom, and side over side, squash it gently to keep the bubbles in place, and wait another 15 minutes.  It made for a strong elastic dough and the final crust was well worth it.

[Pete-zza]

Giotto,

Thanks for sharing your efforts.  I felt like I was standing there looking into your mixer bowl .

When you say "reverse engineer", what exactly do you mean?  Do you mean testing the dough somehow, dumpster diving ,  extracting information from the pro whose dough you have bought, or possibly some combination of these methods?  

I looked at the recipe I have been using for making New York style dough (which I previously posted) and, making rough estimates of ingredients, it looks like you have moved closer in the direction of the recipe I use, which includes no added sugar, very small amounts of yeast (instant dry yeast), a little oil and modest amounts of salt (just enough for the palate).  When I look at the recipe I wonder why it should work.  But it does, and the lack of added sugar is no drawback.  I have been able to get 2 to 3 days in the refrigerator without the yeast running out of food (I use the KA Sir Lancelot flour), although by the third day or so the dough will be more extensible and less elastic and the crust will be lighter.  Based on the temperatures you mentioned, let me ask you this: was the temperature at your place when you made your pizza around 76 degrees F ?   .

I notice that you proofed the active dry yeast this time rather than using it dry.  Yesterday, I decided to try a new dough recipe and put active dry yeast at the end--by just sprinkling the yeast dry on top of the dough that was pretty much done and kneading it in for a couple or minutes or so.  When I was getting ready to put the dough into a bowl, I noticed that I could see little specks of the yeast distributed throughout the dough.   I decided nonetheless to let the dough rise at room temperature to see what would happen.  After about 6-7 hours, the dough had hardly budged.  Rather than leave the dough continue to work overnight, and seeing that it had some spring to it, I decided just to proceed as usual.  The dough looked like it was dead, but it wasn't.  I was able to shape it (it was elastic and fought back) and make a pizza, but the crust was more like a cracker crust.   Maybe it didn't help that I used cool water and used only the #1 speed of my stand mixer (which minimized heat production).  I suspect I would have gotten better results if I had proofed the active dry yeast in a little warm water.  I may repeat the experiment again sometime just to see what the dough does if I let it run out for a day or so at room temperature.  If the dough starts to behave normally, even though it may take some time, it might prove out your theory that using the active dry yeast at the end of the kneading process can significantly extend the fermentation period, if that is the desired objective.

Peter

[Foccaciaman]

Thanks Giotto, for sharing that with us.  

I really hope that you can have a repeat preformance with the crust/dough. The more I look at your pics the hungrier that I am getting.

[giotto]

Today, I had the painters out-- not much fun doing that stuff.  I'm certainly looking forward to another try at it. By the way, with 11 oz of flour sited above, I am making somewhere around a 15" pizza on a 16" screen (excuse the clumsy finger mark with sauce at top left).
(http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/ovendough.JPG)

Here's responses to Q's:

Reverse Engineer... In this particular case, the professional (... Fornaio) labels their dough for FDA purposes and I got the label (no trash cans).  Because I've worked with the USDA & FDA before, I can convert ingredients to their relative amounts pretty easily.  The sugar was a no-brainer since they were not listed in the ingredients, and specs were 0g.

Proofing yeast... I got the same results, Pete-zza, when I tried to add the Active Yeast without proofing.  The dough texture had a bunch of ugly pimples in it-- this doesn't happen with another pro I got this from-- I don't know its dough temp; but I'm back to proofing from now on in 1 TBL of water. This works well with my procedure to add it after the first rest period, giving the dough additional rehydration.

House Temp... Interesting, my house temp is 76 F now, and the temp has not budged in a week at this time of night, which is about the time I made it.

Non-hdrogenated shortening... I tell you, this stuff makes a difference.  I would never have used shortening before; but the idea of non-hydrogenated shortening, listed as Palm oil seemed to feel right.  So when I saw the stuff sitting on a store's shelf listed as organic, no trans fat, non-hdrogenated vegetable shortening, with Palm Oil listed in parenthesis, I decided to try it.  1/2 TBL seemed low to me; but oil can deaden dough, despite its other benefits, so it made sense to try it.

King Arthur... Sir Lancelot is 14.7% protein, which is even higher than industry standards of 14.1%, and more than a full point higher than Giusto's 13.5%.  I'm wondering if the palm oil would need to be increased just a bit (maybe a tsp).

Mixing differences... I mix the ingredients in slightly different steps than you like to, Pete-zza.  

- I like the salt to make it all the way through the dough before the yeast is added, as a means to slow down the yeast fermentation.  I risk impact to rehydration since minimal time expires before I add the proofed water.

- I pre-warm the stainless steel bowl with warm water.

- I start by mixing the salt into the flour in the bowl, then add room-temp water with non-hydro vegetable shortening mixed in it.  I mix it with a dough hook just until it comes together, and let it rest for a few minutes.  

- Then I stir the proofed yeast and add it into the dough, and mix at intervals to simulate hand kneading (no more than a minute at a time).  

- I give it a tug to test it's glutency/elasticity.  It should never just break off (that would be really bad).  And it should slightly resist without breaking.  That's my windowpane test.  To get bigger holes in the outer crust, I let the gluten form during refrigeration, keeping my mix time to just a few minutes.

[Pete-zza]

Giotto,

Your mix and knead process is a little bit different from what I normally use.   My approach is more along the classic autolyse approach by keeping the salt away from the flour, yeast and water so that the salt, which is hygroscopic, doesn't interfere with hydration and doesn't slow down yeast growth.  In theory, this is suppose to shorten the time needed to develop the gluten and to shorten the hydration time.   Of course, if the objective is to increase fermentation endurance, then the approach you use is appropriate.  It shows that you have first determined what your objectives are and have adjusted the process accordingly to meet those objectives.  

I draw a distinction (which only registered recently, thanks to you) between slowing down yeast growth (and fermentation) and delaying the onset of yeast growth (and fermentation).  Adding the salt to the dough with the yeast already in it has the effect of accomplishing the former and adding the yeast after the salt has been added to the dough has the effect of accomplishing the latter.  I believe from our previous discussions that this is your understanding also and that was the rationale for adding the yeast after the salt.  

When I used to knead bread dough by hand and tried to add salt after the autolyse (with the yeast already in the dough), it was a bear to knead in the salt.  The dough would tighten, develop tears, and become more difficult to knead and stretch.  A machine does the incorporating job far faster and better, of course, but I still see the same effects moments after I add the salt to the dough.  The dough goes a little bit crazy and flails around all over the place until the salt has been fully incorporated.   Do you see the same effects of salt on yeast when you add the yeast after the salt?  

BTW, I used the standard equation to try to calculate your room temperature, based on what you said about the finished dough temperature and water temperature (room temperature water).  I assumed that your flour temperature was also at room temperature, as is almost always the case, and that your slow speed mixing and kneading was adding very little heat to the dough, maybe a few degrees.

Peter

[giotto]

Pete-zza:

Yes in each of your accounts. I keep the flour within a couple of degrees of room temp, since our room temp is pretty much 73 - 78 F year round (no air conditioning) during the day.  I noticed that many pros around here make their dough in the afternoon for the next day.

Right now, the flour is 73 F and the room is 75 F.  By the time it's mixed in the warm bowl with the salt, it's equal to room temp.  Just as sugar added to grapes doesn't immediately make wine, I use the temp of the dough during mix, yeast timing and full incorporation of salt prior to yeast addition, all for the delay over time as you suggest, so I can develop the acids and other tastes.

I've reduced the problem related to adding yeast later by reducing it down to just 1 TBL of water (lukewarm by the time it is added), AND kneading by hand for a couple of times in the bowl before restarting.

[Pete-zza]

Giotto,

I read that most professionals make their dough in the evening for use the next day because the coolers are most efficient during that time period.  During the day, workers are much more likely to open and close the cooler doors and reduce its efficiency and raise the temperature of the dough balls.  

Your use of your hands raises a good point about the need in many cases to use your hands even when you have a mixer to do most of the work.  I'm sure we have all experienced having the dough rise up onto the dough hook and just rotate without really kneading, especially when the amount of dough is not all that great.   Some people recommend spraying the dough hook with a light oil spray, but I haven't found that approach to be infallible.  Usually, the best solution is to just stop the mixer and reorient the dough by hand--maybe several times to be sure that the dough gets enough kneading.  Stopping the mixer occasionally just to get a feel for the dough to be sure it isn't too wet or too dry or to test it to see if it has been sufficiently kneaded is also a good idea, if not a necessity.  And, like you, I will often knead ingredients like yeast, salt and sugar into a dough by hand before putting the dough into the mixer for further processing.  Most recipes are silent as to the need to occasionally intrude on the actions of the machines we use.  They basically say just mix things together and knead for specified times.  This may well be one of the biggest problems for beginning pizza makers or for those who didn't succeed even though they said "I followed the recipe exactly" . The only way I know to avoid using the hands altogether is to use a food processor or a bread machine.   Then, you will have a different set of procedures and challenges to contend with to be sure that the dough comes out right.

Peter

[giotto]

When the formula expands to accomodate more pizza doughs per run, I find it increasingly difficult to mix it in at later stages either by hand or machine.  In addition, the possibility of introducing dryness and machine oxidization goes way up in an effort to mix it in.

The use of colder water mixed with flour at the beginning stage intrigues me as a means to add the yeast at an initial stage (proofed in a very small amount of water that reaches room temp by the time it is added).  Based on the yeast temp tables, yeast multiplies at lower temps, just with a slower rate of appetite-- which is fine for me.

Regarding enviornmental temps, each region needs to consider its own seasonal temps (humidity, high heats, etc.) as well as how quickly they want the dough ready.  

[Pete-zza]

I recently made a batch of dough using my standard New York style dough recipe (previously posted).  I divided the dough in half to yield two dough balls each weighing about 13 ounces.  One of the dough balls was refrigerated for about 24 hours, following which the dough was allowed to come up to room temperature for about 3 hours.  This was longer than I had intended (I was looking for a 1 1/2- to 2-hour rise), but I was interrupted by other matters as the dough was rising.  The dough was extensible and quite elastic but, with a little additional rest, it shaped nicely.   After shaping, the pizza was dressed with a mixture of 6-in-1 and San Marzano tomato sauce with a little Penzeys pizza seasoning; a mixture of mozzarella cheese slices, fresh mozzarella cheese, provolone cheese and freshly grated grana padano cheese; pepperoni; chopped green pepper; a high-quality olive oil; and fresh basil (added after baking).  The pizza was baked on a pizza stone preheated for one hour at 500-550 degrees F.

The crust of the finished pizza was a little bit breadier than I like and not quite as leathery as I usually strive for in my New York style pizza crusts.  This may have been attributable to the longer period of rising after taking the dough out of the refrigerator.  It  strikes me that to make a good New York style pizza dough it is best not to have long knead times and gluten development and to not let the dough rise too much before shaping and dressing.  Along with that, the use of a small amount of yeast and little or no sugar would seem to insure that the dough not rise too much and develop an open crumb structure, which is conducive to breadiness rather than leatheriness.  The next time I follow the recipe, I plan to omit the autolyse and knead only the minimum, and let the refrigeration do most of the heavy lifting.  

In any event, the photo below shows what the finished pizza looked like.
Peter

[Pete-zza]

In my previous post, I indicated that I had made enough dough for two New York style pizzas.  Whereas the first piece of dough was subjected to a period of refrigeration of around 24 hours, the second piece of dough was subjected to a period of refrigeration of about 48 hours.  When I removed the second dough ball from the refrigerator to come up to room temperature, I noticed that the dough had expanded in volume a bit more that the first dough ball.  After a rise period of about 1 1/2 hours, the dough was soft and easy to handle--moreso than the first dough ball.  As with the first dough ball, I had little trouble tossing the dough as I was shaping it.  The second pizza was dressed almost identically to the first pizza except that I substituted sauteed mushrooms for the green pepper and I baked the pizza on a pizza screen rather than the pizza stone.  

The photo below shows the results of the second pizza.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

In a previous post (Reply 27 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,524.msg4691.html#msg4691), I indicated that I had made my first batch of pizza dough for a New York style pizza in my Zo bread machine.  I disregarded the instructions for dough making that I found in the instruction booklet for the machine and just used my standard New York style dough ingredients and quantities.  As previously noted, the dough coming out of the bread machine was warm to the touch.  The dough, weighing about one pound, was refrigerated and used the next day.  The pizza was dressed with a 6-in-1 tomato sauce with fresh sliced tomatoes; mozzarella and provolone cheeses; pepperoni; chopped green peppers; a good-quality olive oil; and fresh basil (added after baking).  I intend to try the bread maker again, but this time use cool or cold water to try to keep the finished dough temperature down.  

The photo below shows the finished product.

Peter

[giotto]

Pete-zza:

First and foremost, let me say, I am totally impressed that you took your talents beyond pizza making and into learning that digital camera of yours.

The pictures are very good and it looks seriously scrumptuous.   Maybe you can share the following with us:

1) you had talked earlier of combining screen & rock-- is this what you did the 2nd time, or did you just use the screen?

2) what was the difference in texture, taste (reduction in sweetness?) & color (browning looks similar despite additional 24 hours) between the 1st and 2nd?  

3) How did the 3rd differ in breadiness, chewiness, taste, browning, etc. (browning looks lighter; but maybe picture)?

4) What size pizza did you create with a 13 oz dough?

If you get a chance to photograph a cut slice for thickness, etc., that would be great.  

I noticed the comment suggesting an open crumb structure necessitates breadiness rather than a leathery texture.  Actually, I have had my share of San Francisco breads and NY pizza crusts with a nice airy structure and holes that have a wonderful pull and chew to them.

Thanks again for the pictures.

[Pete-zza]

Giotto,

I should be the one thanking you for coaxing me off of the sidelines with the camera, especially for a site like this one, where a photo conveys much more information than words alone.  Fortunately, after I got all of the photos out of the camera and onto my hard drive, I had some help from a friend who has the same model camera and a ton of experience using it.  He helped expedite the learning process, especially on how to size the photos so that they can be posted on this site.

As for the two pizzas I made on two separate days (the 26- and 48-hour versions), the first pizza had a diameter of about 14 inches (the largest size my peel and pizza stone can accommodate) and was baked directly on the stone; the second pizza was nearly 16 inches in diameter and was baked entirely on the 16-inch pizza screen.  So, the second pizza had a thinner crust.  The coloration of the top crusts for both pizzas was about the same, as you noted, however the bottom crust of the second pizza was darker than the first.  I attribute this to the close proximity of the pizza screen to the bottom electric coil (even though I was using a lower oven temperature than usual) and also to the thinness of the second crust.   Part way through baking, I moved the second pizza to a higher oven rack to keep the crust from burning.  In both cases, there was enough sugar left in the dough, along with the higher protein levels, to promote browning.  

I did not particularly notice any differences in sweetness.  I did not add any sugar to the recipe to begin with, and since most flours have only about 1 to 2 percent natural sugar bound up in the starch, I'm not sure that I would be able to detect the sweetness on the tongue (I understand that it takes above 4 to 5 percent sugar to detect it on the palate).

When I referred to breadiness, I was thinking more of the rims of the pizzas rather than the rest of the crusts.  The rims are thicker and that is where the open crumb is most noticeable, both visually and when eaten.  There was some openess to the structure of the rest of the crusts, but the crusts didn't quite have the chewiness and leathery character that I personally prefer in my New York style pizzas.  This is the reason I am thinking of slightly modifyng my original recipe to see if I can achieve those favored characteristics.  The previous time I made the recipe, I was using a food processor and it is possible that the dough formed using that machine was different from the one using the stand mixer.

With respect to the third pizza--the one made using dough processed by the bread machine--I found the crust of that pizza to be too bready also for my taste.  As I previously noted, I had allowed the dough to go through the full cycle of the machine, and it exhibited a faster rise than usual, both coming out of the machine and while it was in the refrigerator.  The more open character carried through to the baked pizza.  The next time I try the bread machine to make a New York style dough, I will remove the dough from the machine before rising and put it directly into the refrigerator.

When I checked the camera photos this morning, I noticed that I did take a photo of a slice--for the 26-hour version mentioned above.

Peter