Author Topic: Quality NY toppings & techniques  (Read 54670 times)

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Offline giotto

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #60 on: September 08, 2004, 05:41:07 PM »
Pete-zza:

Your crust on the 14" doesn't look that thin and your outside crust is good.  It reminds me that a 14 oz dough (about 8.5 oz of flour with 60% liquid) used to meet my needs for a 14" pizza.    

I'm stepping aside from Giusto's 13 - 13.5% flour for awhile.  The flour is like dust when mixed with water-- oversaturates way too easily. The lack of pigmentation is an issue no matter how little/manual it is mixed (always white oxidized look to it).  

I'm trying a Pendelton Power hi-gluten unbleached flour.   I assume it's around an industry 14.1% protein.  Really easy to work with when it comes to a 60% fluid to flour mix.  Decent cream color when mixed, and easticity is created with minimal kneading.  It stretches, yet never over-stretches when tossing it.  Oven browning and rising were excellent with only 4g (1 TBL) of sugar, 3/4 tsp salt, 3/8 tsp active yeast (proofed) and 20 hours of refrigeration.  

Regarding the pizza screen, I would recommend starting near the top, and moving it to the bottom for close to a minute-- sometimes without the screen.  This will give the crust a slightly crisp bottom, without burning.

For those who wonder how little yeast is really needed, here's an example where a professional is using 4 tsp of instant yeast for 40 lb of high gluten flour, which is about the amount that I've seen used.  This is about 1/16 tsp per 10 oz of flour.  The owner's only crime is leaving the dough out a regular temperature too long according to Tom L at PMQ:

http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/noframes/read/986
« Last Edit: September 08, 2004, 08:01:42 PM by giotto »


Offline giotto

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #61 on: September 09, 2004, 10:53:47 AM »
Pete-zza:

At 22 oz of flour, 1 tsp active yeast was more than I needed.  I'm down to 3/8 tsp active yeast for 11 oz of flour, and that is plenty for a good rise, bubbles, etc.  I expect that 1/4 tsp active yeast will be good for my next mix.  With my SAF instant, I'd feel comfortable with 1/8 tsp.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2004, 10:56:17 AM by giotto »

Offline giotto

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #62 on: September 11, 2004, 03:41:17 AM »
Since 4 tsp of instant yeast is enough for 40 lbs of flour, this is what 1/4 tsp of active yeast will give you with 10 oz of flour:

Enough for a nice outer crust:
(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/qtr-yeast.JPG)


With a nice medium thickness toward the end:
(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/qtr-yeast-slice.JPG)

Offline Pierre

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #63 on: September 11, 2004, 04:59:40 AM »
very nice looking Pizza Giotto....

I wrote a long time ago after speaking to a Master Baker here in Germany that very little yeast is necessary, I've been using 1ml of yeast (1/5 tsp) for 250 grams of flour for quite awhile now.

I think the amount can be decreased even more.  

Pierre

Offline Foccaciaman

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #64 on: September 11, 2004, 12:50:04 PM »
Giotto:

you get some very nice color in the edge of the crust.
To what do you attribute this to.

Do you brush it with oil?

How much, if any, sugar is in your dough?

At what temp., where in the oven, and on what was it cooked (stone/screen)?

How Long was it cooked???

Thanks ;D ;D ;D
Ahhh, Pizza The Fifth Food Group

Offline Pete-zza

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #65 on: September 11, 2004, 01:04:38 PM »
Giotto,

Is the pizza dough you made based on the Pendleton Power high-gluten flour that you mentioned in a recent post?  If so, it produces a mighty fine pizza, even with the algae :).

Peter

« Last Edit: September 11, 2004, 04:56:15 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline giotto

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #66 on: September 11, 2004, 03:41:59 PM »
Foccaciaman:

I attribute the color to many of the things you mention.  Although I don't like to rub the crust with oil before going in the oven-- it seems to deaden the texture for me.

Ingredients:
- ratio of salt to sugar, in this case 1 to 3 (1/2 tsp salt to 1 1/2 tsp sugar).  
- Low amount of active yeast (1/4 tsp Red Star active proofed)
- High Gluten Flour (Pendleton in Oregon, available at restaurant supply stores)

Refrigeration:
- Immediate refrigeration.
- Set in steel holder for first hour, before switching to a plastic bag (the free stuff from produce sections)
- Remove after 14 hours, in this case 20 hours.
- Let sit out 1 hour before preparing for oven.

Oven/Screen Technique:
- Screen only
- Oven 530 F (preheated only a few minutes)
- Heat 1 minute on bottom, no toppings
- Start 6" from top 6 1/2 to 7 minutes, with toppings
- Move to bottom 45 - 60 seconds (sometimes no screen)
« Last Edit: September 11, 2004, 11:33:58 PM by giotto »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #67 on: September 11, 2004, 04:17:43 PM »
Giotto,

Thanks for expanding on your efforts with the Pendelton flour.

I am curious about your 1 to 3 ratio of salt to sugar.  Is that a standard ratio, or something you came up with through your own work with doughs.  Also, I noted that you, like canadave, use a metal container (canadave uses cookie tins) for holding the dough before transferring it to a plastic bag.  I remember when I was into sourdough breads and following Nancy Silverton's recipes, she suggested that metal containers not be used to hold dough since metal conducts heat away from the dough.  For one hour, or even overnight, I can't imagine that this would be a problem.   Is there a particular reason why you have chosen to use a metal container?

Peter

Offline giotto

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #68 on: September 11, 2004, 04:40:27 PM »
Pete-zza:

Yes, Pendleton Power unbleached high gluten.  I was pleased as well when Tony G recommended it to me at a pizza party. Great guy who started the US Pizza team with PMQ.  Here's some of his other recommendations: http://www.pmq.com/mag/2002fall/dough.shtml

Pendleton is a breeze when using 60% water. Cost me a whopping $8 for 50 lbs at a restaurant supply store (United Cash & Carry).  Since I'm not working with all 50 lbs of flour at once or producing 70 doughs, I can mix minimally and get all the benefits of elasticity and airy crust while avoiding dough oxidization.  

I knead as follows:

- Low machine knead w/dough hook until put together.  
- Wait 3 minutes. Knead with hook another minute.  
- Hand knead 5 or 6 times, then finish off with just over a minute with the machine dough hook.  

I refrigerate with dough at around 81 F (discussed above) without any issues.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #69 on: September 11, 2004, 04:54:40 PM »
Pierre,

I know from having read just about all your posts that you are a big fan and advocate of the use of small amounts of yeast and cooler temperatures (e.g. water temperatures).  Do you follow this practice with all types of doughs, or only certain ones?  

Having thought about this some, it strikes me that there is a continuum that runs from using large amounts of yeast and high temperatures at one end of the spectrum to using small amounts of yeast and low temperatures at the other end of the spectrum, and that as you move from left to right along the continuum, and with all other things being equal, the quality of the end product (the crust) should in theory at least improve because of the increased by-products of fermentation and more developed gluten.   In other words, the duration of fermentation, whether it occurs at room temperature or in the refrigerator, or a combination of both, becomes the most important determinant of overall quality of the finished crust.  I realize that there are many other factors that come into play, such as types of flours and the use and amounts of other ingredients, such as salt, sugar, oils, etc., as well as technique, but does the proposition that I have expressed above fit with your understanding and reason why you favor using small amounts of yeast and low temperatures, or is there something else I am not properly taking into account?  

Peter
« Last Edit: September 11, 2004, 05:13:52 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline giotto

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #70 on: September 11, 2004, 05:03:10 PM »
Pete-zza:

Yes, I was taught 1 to 2 or 3 for 14% high protein as a standard, where consistency was everything.  I deviate from it every now and then with lower glutens, as you know, but it gives me the highest consistency in taste and color with the right flour.  

I've seen pizzerias throw out all their plastics, and switch to metal at a cost for the complete opposite reason.  It produces the coldest environment around the dough as quickly as possible.  I was told that if Neo style is what I wanted, then wood is preferable because how it affects hydration; otherwise, go for the cold.  Since I fold over the tops after an hour, I keep it loosely covered at first.

You'll notice that the one area where T. Lehman recommended immediate change in one of the URLs mentioned above was leaving the dough out for the first few hours, rather than cross stacking in refrigeration, and then restacking.  You'll also notice that he didn't touch the close to 1 to 3 ratio of salt to sugar or 4 tsp of yeast for 40 lbs of flour.  While some people like extensible doughs, others prefer elastic.  I like a combination.  And I know that it takes about 8 hours for enzymes to yield most of the sugars.  I get the best feel from lower yeast doughs, and prefer lower temperatures to reduce yeast activity from depleting the sugars in the dough, which in turn give the yeast enough time to churn out more acids.  In the end, I look to get great color and great taste without added ingredients over 16 - 48 hours.  I have seen 1 week without the use of any sugars work well with one pro's dough.  It will be interesting to see what longer terms yield with the new flour.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2004, 05:29:18 PM by giotto »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #71 on: September 11, 2004, 05:32:42 PM »
Giotto,

Thanks for the added insights.  

I read that DiFara's, the well-known Brooklyn pizzeria, uses wood trays for proofing purposes.  Although I haven't yet been to DiFara's to see for myself, based on what I have read about the DiFara pizzas I would describe their pizzas as a cross between Neapolitan style and New York style pizzas.  The DiFara dough is apparently made from a mix of Delverde 00 flour and a high-gluten flour.  Having played around with such a combination a few times, I would say that the pizza leans more toward the Neapolitan style than the New York style, especially when there is no refrigeration of the dough.

I went back to Nancy Silverton's book to see in what context she suggested that one avoid metal containers.  It was in the context of a room temperature rise, not specifically the retardation part of the process.  I think you (and canadave) are right.  It would seem that a metal container in the refrigerator would promote cooling faster than a non-metal container.  

Earlier this afternoon, I posted a message to Pierre, one of the well-respected pizza "technologists" on this forum, about the role that time plays in the process of producing a high quality dough and crust.   Knowing that you are an avid experimenter, I would welcome your observations also.

Peter

« Last Edit: September 11, 2004, 05:44:42 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline giotto

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #72 on: September 11, 2004, 06:17:43 PM »
Pete-zza:

I have learned that there are professionals who know what they know because they bought a place from someone else; and then there are those who seem to be in a whole different ball game.  This latter bunch can come in all kinds too.  My favorites are the ones with families from Italy, who were willing to continue to develop beyond their family secrets by rubbing major elbows world-wide.  By speaking to the latter, and reading to learn more on the topic, I have experimented as you suggest to see how I can best attain my own preferences at home.  But it's only after a great deal of learning, and after starting to see certain things validated from others.

The concept of cold and its impact on fermentation is covered briefly in American Pie.  Lehman has entire dissertations on similar topics, and he covers the relationship between ingredients on thin vs. thicker doughs which vary quite a bit.  You'll find some of my comments regarding delayed fermentation above.  

In the end, it's like I was reminded of recently... there is just no one way to do things, except your own.  And I'm quickly arriving at that point.  But even this varies.  Last night, for example, I enjoyed a bready calzone that I enjoyed in a pizza sandwich format.  Yet, I often try to avoid such a crust.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2004, 11:30:16 PM by giotto »

Offline giotto

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #73 on: September 12, 2004, 12:35:10 AM »
Oh man, I just saw a back yard wood oven to die for, apparently right out of Tuscany.  The owners love it and gave me this site.  There are reasons why the learning doesn't stop... just when I figure it out, the equation gets stuff added to it.  This is a trip that I can make though (compared to Italy anyways). http://www.mugnaini.com/
« Last Edit: September 12, 2004, 12:37:39 AM by giotto »

Offline DKM

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #74 on: September 12, 2004, 09:02:46 AM »
To quote my 4 YO, "I need, I need"

DKM
I'm on too many of these boards

Offline Foccaciaman

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #75 on: September 12, 2004, 02:47:08 PM »
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I know what I will be dreaming of tonight.....
I think I am going to have to start working on my wife now for next summer when I expand and redesign my deck. I will tell her she can have a hot tub if I can have one of those ovens delivered.
It may be a long shot but she has suprised me before. :)

Knowing myself the way I do though, I will probably spend more time trying to design my own version for fraction of the cost.
She'll love that even more. hahahahahahahaha ;D
« Last Edit: September 12, 2004, 02:48:29 PM by Foccaciaman »
Ahhh, Pizza The Fifth Food Group

Offline Pierre

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #76 on: September 12, 2004, 07:01:44 PM »
sorry, Pete-zza for the delay. We had some excitement over here in the night from Friday to Saturday. In our bathroom a corner valve just popped off sending the valve head flying thru the room. Luckily, I am a light sleeper and heard something abnormal and woke up from it.

At first, I hesitated to enter the bathroom due to the strange noise coming from within (it had no resemblance with anything I had personally heard before...it didn't sound like water  ???). When I finally opened the door, I was greeted by something similar to Niagra Falls!  :o

You'd be surprised at how much water can be pressed thru a small opening in a miniature valve when the pressure is high enough ! Since we live in an apartment house on the 4th floor, this was a massively critical situation. While I waded thru the gushing water to turn off the main valve, my wife placed everything we had on towels and bedwash she could find on the floors to hold up the water from trenching the neighbored apartments under ours. The water was 5 fingers high in the bathroom and poured quickly into the adjascent rooms.

We spent 3 hours wringing out the towels over and over and over again.... I'm not the type who uses expletives (I made an exception this time), but this is something I certainly "really needed", just like a hole in my head. Why do things like these happen on the Weekends, where no one from your apartment management can be reached!?  >:(

The neighbors under us are not home, I have no idea what happened below us. I'm already wondering what surprises our insurance company has for us when we report the damage tomorrow morning.... (nope sorry mr.Kiefer; see the exclusion paragraph § 3b, on side 24, section 12c, 4th sentence......)

Section 12c

sd asdfööösdf asd..asdf..a.sdfwer.we.r.wer.wer.w.erlkkksl ksdkl eksljels lejeriwoekl  Blue mooned evenings weljwejiw excluded for sure ew4 lkej34 lkjdklsj344llk skl34l3jlk skj3kl4j32kjk sd3.

Wait a second, let me get my magnifying glass (12" wide) out and then.....son $%&%#####&  !! :o :'(

It's very late right now here.... near 1am. I need to get some sleep and hope for the best tomorrow. I'll get back you all then. Wish me some luck guys. I need it!!

Pierre

Offline giotto

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #77 on: September 12, 2004, 08:41:31 PM »
Pierre:

Oh man, as soon as I saw the words "In our bathroom a corner valve just popped off sending the valve head flying thru the room," my head hit the computer.  I know exactly how much water can come through one of those things.  That's really scary to think that it happened in a complex where you are above others.  I don't even know where the main is on something like that.  Unfortunately, when I think of insurance, I am reminded of the comment "insurance is like wearing a gown in the hospital, you only think you're covered."  

Really sorry to hear about the disaster.  And to think that it occurred when you can't even get time off of work for it.  Best of luck!

Offline giotto

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #78 on: September 12, 2004, 09:05:47 PM »
Foccaciaman:

You gotta checkout these layouts just waiting to be architected on a deck:
http://www.mugnaini.com/ovens/gallery_unti_medio.html

Here's a do-it-yourself kit that appears to reduce one model's cost in half.  Scroll down to Medio 100 Al Fresco Kit:
http://www.mugnaini.com/ovens/ovens_medio100.html
« Last Edit: September 13, 2004, 09:12:11 PM by giotto »

Offline giotto

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #79 on: September 13, 2004, 09:48:19 PM »
Today, I decided to try my hand at pizza smoking and grilling.

Placed my ingredients on the table  8)
(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/table.jpg)

Started with my 2 level chiminea.  But the pizza would not fit through the door  ???
(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/chimney.jpg)

I moved onto my smoker   ::)
(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/bbq1.jpg)

Pre-heated it in my oven to compensate for the lower temp smoker.  Then indirectly smoked it for a few minutes:
(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/bbq2.jpg)

Performed the 3 second test to ensure coals/wood were at 500 F, then directly grilled it for less than a minute to brown the bottom.
(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/bbq3.jpg)

All paticipants agreed, the spray of smoke over the Grande Mozzarella, tasty assortment of bell peppers, juicy sliced garden tomatoes, crispy pepperonis, and nicely browned bottom crust were a perfect match.  ;D
« Last Edit: September 13, 2004, 10:27:35 PM by giotto »