Author Topic: Quality NY toppings & techniques  (Read 54908 times)

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Offline giotto

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Re: Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #140 on: November 19, 2005, 12:41:08 AM »
Pete-zza:

I totally understand your thinking of high hydrations; but interestingly enough, the wetter the environment, yeast does better in a higher hydration environment according to bread books.  In fact, you'll have a hard time finding a book where 75% - 80% is not used for rustic breads, where rise and spring are very important.  A couple of examples of these high hydrations are KA's Baker's Companion (where they suggest their Ciabatta is so wet, you can't knead by hand) and Reinhart's Crust & Crumb.  As mentioned in another post, I recently got a first hand chance to visit a San Francisco all natural bakery, and sure enough, their rustic breads were almost 80%, and they had good rises and amazing air holes (from trapping bubbles) with lower amounts of instant yeast than recommended by various authors.  They did use starters, but only for their sour doughs. Otherwise, delayed fermentation was used with lower yeast amounts.  Over-fermentation is something to be careful of to reduce spring.

In breads, however, the high hydrations make sense because they want moisture in the rustic bread environments for a more moist interior and yeast fermentation.  I'm finding, however, that 65% - 67% to be plenty for pizza dough to give me a great texture, combined with longer knead times to give the chewiness as I believe you've noted as well. When I work at higher hydrations than this, I'm not sure if I am seeing enough of a result with pizza crust to justify the additional effort. 


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #141 on: November 19, 2005, 10:08:13 AM »
giotto,

I fully agree with what you say about hydration. Some time ago, I attended a King Arthur event held locally where I saw one of their bakers make a ciabatta bread dough. He said that the mistake most people make is to add too much flour, so that they can handle it, and he showed how to use a bench scraper to turn the dough rather than use his hands.

When it comes to using very high hydration for pizza dough, the fermentation is faster than normal and, if you hold the dough too long, you can experience extensibility problems. I held the Morgan/Gemignani dough for about 2 days, the maximum mentioned in the recipe, and it was very extensible even though it didn't rise much during fermentation and used some ice cold water (about half of the total water) and was held at a colder than normal refrigerator temperature. On the surface it looked like little was happening, but beneath the surface there apparently was a lot going on. But because the dough was dry I had no problem shaping and stretching it to the desired size. Next time it might be better to use a cold fermentation somewhere between the specified minimum of 10 hours and 2 days.

Peter

Offline RockyMarciano

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Re: Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #142 on: January 08, 2006, 11:33:42 PM »
its all about the cup n crisp margarita pepperoni

Offline giotto

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Re: Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #143 on: September 22, 2006, 08:10:58 PM »
Craig Ponsford is a preeminent baker in the SF area and a big proponent of yeast preferments for non-sour dough breads. I really respect guys like Craig and ACME bread's Sullivan because they work with more variations in a week than I can work with in a life time. Craig employs different temps, aging, and flours (rye, wheat, all purpose, etc.) to produce such a myriad of tastes.

Craig was forced into commercial yeast-based preferments when he helped the US win the specialty breads category in France in 1996 (Ciabatta, baguettes, etc.). His goal initially was to strengthen the French flours to meet his needs. Since then, he believes a poolish is almost the purest if you wish to bring out the closest taste to the real wheat. That’s an important distinguishing element, since these guys use natural starters for their sourdough.

Because the Ciabatas are so special, I decided to follow Craig and Sullivan's yeast preferment recommendation for a similar rough crust, amazing inside crumb, and natural taste of the Ciabatta.

Commercial yeast is aggressive. SO the amount of yeast they use is negligible in their preferments (between 1/16 tsp and 1/364 tsp). The goal is not to change the taste in the flours. But to bring them out. The yeast impacts rise and texture, while the change in temperatures result in acidity from bacterial fermentation.

These guys get way up there in % hydration, since they take about 18 minutes to produce their results at lower temperatures (about 425F). So I opted for a final result under 70%, which will be used with a higher temp in my oven.

I went with a cross between Craig’s Biga (which is stiffer, includes some whole wheat and sits in cold temperatures), and Sullivan’s poolish (which is more watery and left at room temp for a milder flavor). Their unbleached flours stay within the 11.5% protein levels. I went with a 12.7% KA bread flour, and later mixed it with a small amount of Giusto’s all purpose.

ACME shoots for a higher ASH rating and ensures that minimal oxygen is injected during his mixing period with rest periods to give an amazing cream coloring. Resting actually breaks down the tight gluten structures at this point, and reduces long kneading times which can introduce oxygen and oxidize the flour’s unsaturated fats and bleach its pigments. When these are oxidized, you lose the vitamin E content and alter their flavor.

I mixed 10 oz each of water and KA Bread Flour by hand with 1/32 tsp active yeast. After a couple of hours, it went into the refrigerator to keep the yeast activity down, and improve the chances for some minimal acedic acid.

In the AM, I left it out for 2 hours and then mixed it with about 50% more flour and a water hydration that would bring it to 67% hydration. I started with about the flour and gave it a 20 minute rest period before adding the yeast and just under 3% salt with the rest of the flour. Turning the first hour, I turned over the dough a few times on a floured board, which minimizes any stickiness. I put a couple of doughs in a tin in the refrigerator, and left out a 13 oz dough.

Amazing color, and check out this amazing extensibility with a lower protein flour.

https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/extensibility.JPG

https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/poolish-mix.JPG

Well, it’s sitting out at room temp now, and tonight I’ll give the left out dough a shot. I’ve worked with similar procedures before and have no question of their results. So if it doesn’t come out right, I only have myself to blame. Commercial yeast is not what develops the taste. But it can compete with the sugars extracted from the starches, and this can adversely impact the minimal bacterial fermentation process; when over developed, the structure also weakens. So the important thing is to not over-ferment, and enjoy the natural taste of the wheat.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2006, 08:12:39 PM by giotto »

Offline giotto

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Re: Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #144 on: September 22, 2006, 11:33:13 PM »
Well, these slices pretty well sum it up (oven was brought to 540F and screen was immediately put in):

https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/poolish-slice1.JPG

https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/poolish-slice-last.JPG

The upside: It was light and definitely had a chew to it. It smelled like a good artisan bread and tasted like a good pizza crust, without any tainty or sour taste. During the dough making process, I added 1/4 tsp active yeast and made over 39 oz of dough. It never took on an alcohol smell and had no visible bubbles after leaving it out 7 hours today. I was planning on making this 13.3 oz dough into a 12" pizza; but it stretched so quickly that I turned it into a 14.5" pizza. It held the toppings very well: 2 small organic heirlooms diced up fresh (no need to remove skin or pre-cook these), pancetta, 4 oz of Grande mozzarella and a light sprinkle of thin white sauce.

The downside: Hard to believe; but it was a bit too chewy. I normally pre-bake my dough for 1 minute; but I skipped this step; I was supposed to wait 45 minutes after laying out the dough, which I've never done. Either of these could have made it even more airy. Then a friend reminded me of another important point... man are we screwed after Heirloom tomato season is over. I wait every year for them. Maybe I can smoke them to preserve them like I saw on Tyler's show in Italy.

Conclusion: All in all, I'm able to come close to the taste and airy texture when very little yeast and all steps are combined at once and then followed by delayed fermentation in the refrigerator. HOWEVER, even though I normally follow the same procedure for adding flour in baby steps as I did here in the final phase (including a 20-60 minute rest time), the chewy texture is much more pronounced when you go through this process, which was the reason that Ponsford implemented it in the first place.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2006, 11:48:30 PM by giotto »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #145 on: September 23, 2006, 11:23:55 PM »
giotto,

I couldn't quite figure out all of the quantities of ingredients you used to make your pizza dough, but the approach seems to be one that is gaining in favor. Some while back, acting on an approach described by Tom Lehmann, I made a home version of a take-and-bake pizza dough in which a "biga" (my best description) was used to increase the crust flavor in a dough that was not subjected to a prolonged cold fermentation. I, too, noted a chewy character to the finished crust, as well as a crust flavor that seemed to me to be reminiscent of a baguette. While I was pleased with the results overall, I am still not certain that that is what I want in a pizza crust. If you are interested in the results of my efforts along these lines, please see Reply 362 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg23239.html#msg23239.

Peter

Offline giotto

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Re: Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #146 on: September 24, 2006, 05:20:50 PM »
So often, I find people tainting the heck out of their crusts, over acidifying them, adding milk, beer, etc., just because they can't get a decent taste to begin with. Oh, what I would have done for a taste akin to a good baguette when I first started out. The chew though is something to tame.

Offline jamesw6777

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Re: Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #147 on: August 20, 2008, 09:33:01 PM »
Pete-zza when you let the dough rest for one hour then refrigerated for twenty four hours, would it make a difference if you just let the dough rest for 15 minutes before refrigerating ? I am a newbie and I plan to make this recipe and I want to get it right.
JAMES

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #148 on: August 20, 2008, 09:54:32 PM »
James,

I assume that your question is in reference to my 16" version of Peter Reinhart's NY style dough as discussed in Reply 112 in this thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,524.msg17203.html#msg17203). If so, I don't think it will make much of a difference if you use 15 minutes as the rest period before placing the dough in the refrigerator. In fact, that is what the Reinhart recipe specifies (at page 115) for a cold fermented dough. To be honest, I don't really recall why I gave my dough an hour rest. In re-reading the instructions for the Reinhart recipe, it is possible that I erroneously followed the instructions for the same-day dough, which calls for an hour rest. That helps explain the increased stretchiness I experienced with the dough. Your dough may do better in that regard because it won't ferment as fast as mine did.

Good luck.

Peter


 

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