Do We Have a Sourdough Recipe to Play With?

[DeBee]

I find my dough lacks flavor.  I'm using KASL, Classico OO, SAF Instant, sugar,salt, tap water.  24 hour refrigeration after mixing.  Cooked on a screen.

I must say, my efforts have improved considerably since finding this site but I would rate my crust somewhere between weak parlor pie and a good frozen.

I will stick to my original recipe and try the "ugly dough" method of letting it hang out in the fridge a week.

In the meantime, can someone post a good sourdough crust recipe for me to experiment with???

Thanks

[Pete-zza]

DeBee,

I think it would help to know what your current recipe is (in terms of ingredients and quantities) and the procedures you are following to make your dough.  Although there are many factors that govern crust flavor, it is largely the result of the by-products of fermentation--which can be dramatically affected by the ingredients you are using, their quantities and the processing you are following.  For example, too much yeast, or too much sugar, turbo-charged kneading (too fast), insufficient hydration (absorption of water by the flour), or temperatures that are too high, or a combination of these things, can foreshorten the duration of the fermentation process (it will spike up and come right back down quickly) and result in a reduction in the amount and intensity of the fermentation by-products, and hence the flavor of the crust.   A long, slow fermentation, on the other hand, relying on a balance of ingredients (i.e., the ingredients are quantitatively within prescribed limits for the type of dough you are trying to make and are interjected into the process at the appropriate times), allows these fermentation by-products to more fully develop and intensify.  In addition, there can also be a secondary fermentation due to natural yeasts to which the dough and its ingredients may be exposed, resulting in the more classical sourdough flavor that supplements the fermentation by-products produced from your regular dough production process.   If you are letting your dough hang around the fridge for a week, I'm surprised that you aren't overwhelmed by flavor.

What you are asking also depends on what you mean by "sourdough".  In common culinary parlance, the term "sourdough" encompasses not only doughs based on wild, or natural, yeasts, but also doughs based on starters that use commercial yeast.  The former tends to produce unpredictable flavor results, since it depends on the natural yeasts captured from the air and in the flour to produce the starter for the dough (which may encompass hundreds of chemical and biological reactions), whereas the latter is based on a one-celled yeast, which lends itself to greater control.  I have made doughs based on natural yeast starters and have not cared for the results.   I have also made doughs using a starter based on commercial yeast and have found the results quite satisfying, with an abundance of flavor.  The "faux" sourdough starter I used was based on simply mixing flour, water and yeast--basically a sponge or poolish--and letting it ferment and periodically feeding it with more flour so that it wouldn't expire.  I'm sure that at some point, that starter was enhanced by natural yeast also.  Offhand, I can't say that I can recall the use of sourdough starters, either natural or based on commercial yeast, for pizza doughs using high-gluten flour.  I have made sourdough breads based on natural starters and high-gluten flour, and they were among the best breads I have ever eaten.  Maybe others on this forum can speak with greater authority and experience than I on the extent to which pizza doughs can be made using starters and high-gluten flour.  

I have set forth below a recipe for a dough that I have made using a starter based on a commercial yeast.  I did not use the particular "sourdough" starter called for in the recipe, and I don't think you have to either.  I used a simple starter based on flour, water and yeast, using considerably less yeast than called for in the recipe.  I just made sure that the starter was adequately fed with flour, and, occasionally, a little bit of sugar.  I could just as well have used a natural sourdough starter if it was of sufficient vigor. Whatever starter you use, you should experience the flavor enhancement that starters are known to produce.

I might also mention that Peter Reinhart, an expert on sougdough breads, also has a recipe for a soudough pizza dough in his book "American Pie", covering the entire process from making the natural starter to the finished dough.  You may find it useful if you are interested in a true sourdough pizza dough.

"Sourdough" Pizza Dough Recipe

1 recipe "sourdough" starter (see recipe below)
4 1/4 to 4 1/2 c. all-purpose flour, unbleached
1 c. cold water
1 c. warm water (around 105-115 degrees F)
2 t. salt

For the "sourdough" starter:
2 c. skim-milk buttermilk
2 c. all-purpose flour, unbleached
1 packet active dry yeast (1T.)
1 T. sugar

To make the "sourdough" starter, in a 2-quart glass container that has been sterilized, stir together all the ingredients with a wooden spoon.  Cover, with the lid slightly ajar, and let stand overnight in a warm place (75-80 degrees F), or until the starter bubbles and has a sour smell.  (If the starter turns any color, or if mold appears on it, throw it out and try again.)  Store, loosely covered, in the refrigerator, for up to 1 week.
Yield: Four cups.

To prepare the "sourdough" pizza dough, in a large nonaluminum bowl, stir together the "sourdough" starter, 1 cup of the all-purpose flour, and the cup of cold water.  Cover with plastic wrap, and let stand at room temperature overnight.

In a large bowl, dissolve the salt in the cup of warm water.  With a wooden spoon, stir in 1 cup of the sourdough mixture.  (Return the remaining sourdough mixture to a clean container and refrigerate.  It can be used as a sourdough starter for up to 1 week before replenishing again.)  Gradually stir in enough of the remaining all-purpose flour to form a firm, soft dough.  Turn the dough out onto a lightly floured surface and knead for 8 to 10 minutes, or until the dough is smooth and elastic, adding additional flour as needed to prevent the dough from sticking.  Place the dough in a lightly oiled bowl, turn to coat, cover with plastic wrap, and let rise until doubled in bulk, about 2 hours.  (The dough can be made ahead, punched down, enclosed in a large plastic bag and stored in the refrigerator for up to 2 days.)

Yield: 4 (12-inch) crusts or 8 (6-inch) crusts.

Peter
 

[DeBee]

I am using a recipe that was posted here.  I found that it was very similar to a recipe I begged from a pizza place that was going out of business:

1 pound flour (3 1/2 cups sifted)
0.28 ounces salt (1 1/2 teaspoon)
0.32 ounces sugar (2 1/4 teaspoons)
0.24 ounces yeast (1 3/4 teaspoon)
0.48 ounces olive/veg. oil (1 tablespoon)
8.80 - 9.28 ounces water (1 cup)

However, I have been using as much as 10oz water and only 3/4 t of instant yeast...

I certainly can't complain about the other characteristics of the dough- it practically spins itself into a disk and golden browns beautifully.

You know when you make a good dough because all the crusts are gone- your friends and family are saving them to dip in their eggs in the morning or pouring ranch dressing on them late night     When you don't do as well, they all end up in the trash...

Thank you for the recipe.

[Pete-zza]

DeBee,

Compared with your recipe, the recipe I follow for a New York style pizza dough uses one pound of flour (unsifted high-gluten) but no sugar, far less yeast (instant dry yeast), and far less oil (olive oil).   I also use an instant read thermometer to measure the temperature of the flour, the temperature of my kitchen and I use a frictional factor for the machine I am using (sometimes I use a stand mixer and sometimes I use a food processor), and calculate the water temperature I will need in order to get a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F, which is considered to be the optimum for yeast fermentation (actually, a range of 80-85 degrees F is the range usually recommended).  I also use an autolyse period, before adding salt, to allow the flour to more completely hydrate.  I stage the additions of oil and salt.   And I check the dough for readiness by using the windowpane test--one or more times--and I make minor adjustments to flour and water and mix times as needed to compensate for variations that are inherent in the whole process.  Sometimes I let the dough rise for about 10-15 minutes before refrigerating, although more often I just put the dough (after scaling and oiling) directly into the refrigerator, where it sits for at least 24 hours and up to 72 hours.  The combination of the above steps allows ample time for the fermentation process to work.   When I am ready to make a pizza, I take the dough ball out of the refrigerator and let it sit at room temperature for about 2 to 3 hours (remember, there is so little yeast used that the dough needs some extra time to increase in volume).  I have on occasion left the dough in the refrigerator for up to 96 hours, but that is getting on the edge since a good part of the natural sugars in the flour will have been used up (and there is no added sugar) and the crust will not have as dark a coloration as it would with shorter refrigeration times.  Two days is almost optimum from my experience for the recipe I use.

If it will help, if only to get a somewhat different perspective on possibilities for a New York style pizza dough, I will separately post the recipe I use along with my personal comments.   I write my recipes with my daughter-in-law in mind so that they are complete and, hopefully, easy to follow when I am not there at her side.  I scaled down the original recipe using the weight measurements provided by Pierre and other on this site to be able to convert from weight to volume, especially for the small volume ingredients like yeast, salt and oil.  I now have a better scale but it can't weigh the minuscule quantites of ingredients.   But I will at least be able to weigh my own ingredients and do the weight-volume conversions based on my specific ingredients and conditions.  Based on the conversion tips and math provided by Pierre, I think I got the conversions right.   If I didn't, I got lucky since all the pizzas I have made using the recipe with the conversions have been quite good.   There is nothing more impressive than to see a large New York style pizza with pepperoni come out of the oven--nicely browned with bubbles and blisters and oozing cheese .  I have recently ordered some pizza screens to play around with and look forward to making even bigger pizzas.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

DeBee,

Here is the recipe I have been using to make NewYork style pizza dough.  It will produce a flavorful crust, but will not have the classical flavor of a sourdough crust (which would not be characteristic of a New York style crust in any event.) You will note that some of the measurements are a bit oddball, but I have left them in because they are the quantities I actually calculated.  I usually use my best estimates using my measuring cups and spoons.  As I do with all my recipes, I take notes and have included those also, following the recipe.

New York Style High-Gluten Pizza Dough Recipe

1 lb. high-gluten flour with 13.5-14% protein (about 3 5/8 c.), KA Sir Lancelot brand recommended
0.58-0.65 lb. water (about 1.15-1.25 c.), temperature adjusted to achieve a finished dough temperature of 80-85 degrees F
0.10-0.15 t. instant dry yeast (around 1/8 t.)
1 1/2 t. sea salt
1 t. olive oil

Mix the flour and the instant yeast in the bowl of a heavy-duty stand mixer fitted with a dough hook. Gradually add the water and mix the ingredients together at low speed until they come together in a rough dough mass, about 2 minutes.  Continue kneading, at medium speed, until all of the flour has been taken up into the dough and a dough ball forms around the dough hook.  Add the olive oil and mix at medium speed for an additional 2 minutes, making any adjustments as necessary to the flour or water (one tablespoon at a time).  Cover the bowl with a piece of plastic wrap or a towel and let the dough rest (autolyse) for about 10 minutes, to allow the flour to more completely absorb the water (hydrate).  Resume kneading at medium speed and add the salt.  Continue kneading until the salt is fully incorporated and the dough is smooth, elastic and shiny and without any tears at the outer skin of the dough when it is shaped into a ball.  The dough will have been sufficiently kneaded when a small piece of the dough, about the size of a walnut, can be flattened and stretched out about 3 inches in all directions without tearing and light can be seen through the stretched dough (the windowpane test).  If the dough does not pass the windowpane test, continue kneading for an additional minute or two.  At this point, the dough ball temperature should be 80-85 degrees F.  The weight of the dough ball should be around 26 ounces.

Divide the dough ball into 2 smaller, equal-weight pieces, shape the pieces into round balls, and wipe the individual dough balls with olive oil.  Place the individual dough balls in containers or in freezer bags and refrigerate for at least 12 hours, and preferably for 24 hours (and up to 72 hours).  When ready to use the dough balls to make pizzas, place the refrigerated dough balls on an oiled tray, cover them with plastic wrap, and allow them to warm up at room temperature for about 2 to 3 hours. At the end of this period, the dough balls should be soft and easy to shape into dough rounds.  If not, let the dough rest for about 5 or 10 minutes more.  

When ready to shape, flatten each dough round into a disk and press your fingertips into the dough to spread the dough round outwardly into a larger diameter, leaving the edges puffy to create a rim. Grasp the rim with your hands, working your way around the circle.  As the dough dangles, it will stretch by the force of gravity while the edge stays plump.  Dust your hands with flour and, draping the dough over both hands and, using your knuckles, continue to stretch the dough outwardly from the edges while tossing the dough into the air an inch or two and simultaneously spinning it in successive quarter turns.  When the desired thickness and diameter are achieved, the dough should be thin enough that you will be able to see light through it when you hold it up to the light.  When each individual dough ball has been completely shaped into a round or disk, place it on a dusted peel, and finish by dressing the dough round with the desired toppings.  Bake each of the pizzas in turn on a pizza stone that has been preheated for 1 hour at the highest oven temperature possible (usually 500-550 degrees F for a home oven).  Any unused dough can be kept at room temperature (covered) for up to about 6 hours after coming out of the refrigerator.

(Peter's Note: This recipe produces a somewhat thin, flexible crust with a tough chewy texture and a lot of small and large bubbles characteristic of New York style pizzas.  It also has a thin center, and a nicely browned crust at the rim and bottom.  As noted above, some of the ingredients, notably the flour and water, are specified by weight rather than volume, based on baker's percentages. The specific baker's percentages for all the ingredients are as follows: flour, 100%; water, 58-65%; salt, 1.75%; yeast, 0.17-0.25%; and olive oil, 1.00%.  As noted from these percentage figures, the New York style of pizza is based on a flour with a high amount of protein and gluten, a high hydration percentage, an unusually small amount of yeast, and no sugar (although some recipes call for it).

In using a stand mixer to make the dough for this recipe, the temperature of the water was adjusted to compensate for the frictional heat of the mixer, using 3-5 degrees F for the friction factor for my machine.

The pizza dough made with the above recipe can also be made using a food processor.  However, since a food processor produces a much greater amount of frictional heat than a stand mixer (with a typical friction factor of around 20 degrees F for my processor), it will be necessary to adjust the water temperature to compensate for the frictional heat, using the standard temperature calculation formula.  In most cases, cooling of the water temperature will be required.  In addition, the various knead times will have to be shortened considerably, to prevent gluten damage and minimize excessive generation of frictional heat.  Using the pulsing feature of the food processor to form the dough ball initially and then concluding processing for about 40 seconds at normal operating speed (using the "on" button) will usually accomplish this result.  As with a stand mixer, when the kneaded dough ball is ready for further processing, it should pass the windowpane test and have a finished dough temperature of 80-85 degrees F.  

If it is expected that the period of refrigeration will be lengthy, say, beyond a 72 hour period, then it may be desirable to add a small amount of a sweetener, such as sugar or honey, to the initial dough ingredients to be sure that the yeast is adequately fed during the prolonged period of refrigeration. In addition, or as an alternative, it is also possible to use colder water than normally used in this recipe. This causes the fermentation of the dough to be slowed down further while the dough is in the refrigerator).

Peter

[Pizzaholic]

I have used the recipe in Peter Rs book American Pie
I followed it and found the flavor you might be looking for. The dough used NO yeast. To my amazement the pie turned out great. The crust had a wonderful texture, and had risen like it had yeast. It did have yeast, just not commercial packaged yeast. It was labor intensive and took some time to get the Mother or Barm to the useable stage. Well worth it.
I also experimented with a sourdough starter recipe from a James Beard book. This used commercial yeast and I used the starter for breads.
The interesting thing about this starter is that I keep it on hand and add it to my doughs (3-4Tbs) and it gives the dough that aged flavor instantly. I feel that I am almost cheating when comparing what I do to some of the other people on the site. But so what, it works for me.
Steve-- Have you tried your Barm yet?
Pizzaholic

[giotto]

DeBee:

I noticed you increased the water for the internet recipe.  It's normal to have a 1 to 3 ratio in volume between water to flour (1/3 cup water to 1 cup or 8.5 oz flour).  

Rather than go through all the trouble of making a sour dough recipe as in American Pie, you can make any dough with very small amounts of yeast and let it sit in the refrigerator for a long time (many days) to build up the sour and sugar taste that naturally occur over time, and use it as a starter.  The results of creating a sponge and using it as a starter will vary though.  

Another way to increase your taste with even less trouble is to incorporate some milk into your water (some even use beer).  Also, as soon as the dough comes together when first mixing, let it sit for 5 minutes to hydrate before continuing the kneading process.  

While others worry about yeast fermentation, I figure out ways to curb it.  I've noticed with every excellent professional pizza dough that I've worked with (the advantage of purchasing from favorite pros sometimes), their dough does not grow while in my refrigerator over a day or two.  Have you noticed how many good US pizzerias take out doughs that do NOT look all spongy?  They look relatively solid, even when made the night before.  This is how my dough looks as well, and it grows very little over night for a good toss the next day.  Yeast eat the natural sugars, leaving less for your palate. Hence, salt and immediate refrigeration are key to taste, while reducing yeast activity.

[Pete-zza]

Giotto,

My experience has been similar to yours with respect to New York style pizzas.   As an example, recently I decided to try my standard New York style recipe in my Zo bread machine.  Rather than using the two dough choices recommended by Zo--a basic one using active dry yeast and a quick one, a speeded up version based on Rapid-Rise yeast--I just decided to use my regular recipe using instant dry yeast in the machine's active dry yeast cycle.  I portioned the ingredients so that I would get enough dough to be kneaded by the bread machine and not get hung up in the middle of the two kneading elements or not get impaled on one or the other of the two kneading elements (both of which occurred notwithstanding).  I also decided to let the dough go through the rise cycle after it had finished kneading (I also had to do a little final hand kneading to get the dough in better shape than the machine left it).  At the point I took the dough out of the machine, I noted that it was quite warm, above 85 degrees F.  After the final hand kneading, I put it in the refrigerator, where it sat for about 48 hours, at which time I decided to use it to make a pizza.  I noticed then that it had risen substantially the whole time it had been in the refrigerator and was dull in appearance, which was unlike my usual New York style dough at that stage, where my experience is that the dough doesn't look like it has risen much at all and still retains the glossiness from the oil that was used to coat it before it went into the refrigerator.  

After letting the dough come up to room temperature (it got there faster than my usual dough) and I started to shape it, I noticed that it had the sourlike or "sourdough" smell from overfermentation and it wasn't as shiny as my usual dough and it didn't have the little bubbles percolating out of the dough (which graduate into a nice mix of small and large bubbles when baked) after I placed the stretched out and tossed dough on the peel.  When the dough was baked, it was more breadlike (especially at the rim) and crunchy rather than "leathery" and flexible.  I concluded that the dough went into the refrigerator too warm and had risen too much and that, in retrospect, maybe I should have used the dough one day after going into the refrigerator rather that two (since I had added no sugar or cold enough water to carry the dough out to two days), and/or I should not have left the dough to rise as much once I had taken it out of the refrigerator.  

In the future, I plan to repeat the experiment but take the dough out of the bread machine at the end of kneading and not let it go through the rise cycle, and treat it thereafter much as I do my normal dough.  I don't know for sure what that dough will look and act like since I have had so little experience with bread machines for making pizza dough, but the dough will be cooler going into the refrigerator and might come closer to the dough I usually make.  Or I will discover a new and different set of problems and challenges to contend with if I plan to stick with a bread machine .

Peter

[giotto]

Pete-zza:

Thank you for taking the time to carefully detail-out the following characteristics, which I too have found key to excellent dough:

- shiny  

- bubbles percolating out of the dough (which graduate into a nice mix of small and large bubbles when baked)

- "leathery" and flexible

- it had risen substantially... in the refrigerator... unlike my usual New York style dough

Here's a dough (made from Giusto's high gluten flour) that came out of the refrigerator today, with negligible growth in 24 hours, and a shiny look to it.  The dough was always around room temperature and placed in the refrigerator within 10 minutes after it was tested for glutency.

(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/raw-dough.JPG)

I made the bottom crust ultra thin and slightly crispy; yet it held together with a flexible (not stiff) crust.

[Pete-zza]

Giotto,

I know you have given bits and pieces of your recipe for New York style pizza dough, through your various postngs, but I wondered whether you have posted it on this site in its entirety.  And, if not, whether you would be willing to do so.  I'm quite satisfied with the recipe I have been using, but I'm always open to new and better ones or ideas that I might incorporate into my own pizza doughs to make them better.

Peter  

[DeBee]

All of this makes for some pretty intense reading- very rich with knowledge and experience...

Makes me think of what a freakin bargain 10 bucks is for a pie at my favorite place

[giotto]

DeBee,  

This is nothing though compared to that manual you wrote online to disassemble a kitchenaid.  After reading that, I started thinking that I should have purchased my kitchenaid at Costco, where for 200 bucks I'd get a 425 watt professional model with all Metal gears AND I could have a lifetime warranty at the store with zero return hassles.

For $5, you could get a full size dynamite pizza with the works.  All you gotta do is leave the trash alone and go in the front door and ask your pizzeria for a 14" dough.  It cost them about a dime-- it's worth a try.  

I'm not sure what you're doing with 3 1/2 cups of flour; but you might try toning your recipe down to 2 cups of flour,and  include some whole milk or herbs.  You'll get a medium thick 12" or a thin 14" pizza that should be easier to test.  

In time, you'll be singing "tiny bubbles" with a dough, similar to this 30 hour dough that I waited for tonight:

(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/theres-those-bubbles.JPG)


You can't beat the works for $5 though:

(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/what-do-we-know.jpg)

And your favorite restaurant may not be so special anymore.

[giotto]

Pete-zza:

I'm not a real recipe type of person.  I prefer to focus on technique.   I add the oil earlier than you; but that's just a preference for how it mixes into the dough.  And I like Active Yeast, instead of Instant, because it seems to move slower and I can leverage its sensitivity to ingredients like salt to control its speed as well.  I've also seen Active Yeast last for as long as 7 days.      

So when are you going to get that digital camera going?

[November]

I couldn't find what I thought would be a better place to put this, so here it is.  Recently I've been baking a lot using the Eagle Mills brand all-purpose flour which contains Ultragrain.  It is a very versatile flour, as I have found it suitable for everything from cakes to pizza crust.  I decided to make a quick faux sourdough (which actually isn't very sour at all) today for some peanut butter and jelly snacks.  I almost didn't stop to take a picture because it smelled so good.  I didn't even let it cool down before slicing and consuming.  I just thought I would share the evidence of this flour's bread dough qualifications.

100.0   Eagle Mills All-Purpose flour
33.33   water
33.33   sour milk (258 days beyond expiration)
3.333   turbinado sugar
3.333   extra virgin olive oil
1.666   kosher salt
0.666   ADY

The fermentation proceeded for 3 hours @ 86°F, was punched down, and then for 1.5 hours @ 68°F.  It was baked on a cordierite surface for 15 minutes @ 425°F.

- red.november

[Bill/SFNM]

Beautiful looking bread. I've used old milk in pancakes, but nothing even close to 258 days beyond expiration. 

Great job!

[November]

Thank you, Bill.  Coming from you that means a lot.  Here's a glamour shot of the snack itself.

EDIT: I changed the image.  I think this angle shows more detail.

[Pete-zza]

November,

I agree with Bill. The bread, especially with the peanut butter and jelly, looks great.

What amount of dough did you use to make the bread? I assume the Kosher salt is the Diamond Crystal brand. Is that right?

I have been looking in all the stores where I shop and haven't been able to find the Ultragrain anywhere. I may have to wait for my next trip into Dallas to see if the specialty stores there carry that flour.

Peter

[November]

Peter,

Thank you.  FYI, I changed the image.  I used 480 g of flour and the salt was Diamond Crystal.

- red.november

[November]

Bill,

Just for you ...

[Bill/SFNM]

As long as we're playing around with sourdough breads, here is a boule I baked today using KAAP flour and Camaldoli starter. This very wet dough using a relatively soft flour produced a delicate crumb. It doesn't support a great deal of oven spring, but was excellent none-the-less. Served with a Greek salad and chicken soup for lunch.