Author Topic: Pizza Cook Book  (Read 5390 times)

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Offline itsinthesauce

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Pizza Cook Book
« on: August 24, 2004, 05:19:34 PM »
Steve, what would you think about writing a Pizza Cookbook from recipes supplied by members of the site? I think it might fly.

I've been so busy, I haven't been on the site for a while. Man, what great new members and great dialogue. I also have to agree with Pete, in that I've never seen anything but constructive dialog. I've never seen another forum like it. Great job!


Offline Steve

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Re:Pizza Cook Book
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2004, 10:56:11 AM »
I've toyed with that idea. I dunno.  :-\
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Offline DKM

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Re:Pizza Cook Book
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2004, 02:43:31 PM »
There would a lot of rights and permissions issues with it, but i think a book about how the websight was built and pizza in general with any recipes you can get the clear cut rights to would be neat.

DKM
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re:Pizza Cook Book
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2004, 03:05:34 PM »
The idea of a pizza cookbook is intriguing, but having researched the question of the copyrightability of recipes some time ago in connection with some work of my own in that area, I think it is safe to say that there are potential risks associated with putting pizza recipes on the site, as proposed by itsinthesauce.  I think the first question that has to be answered before proceeding further is what is the objective of putting the recipes on the site.  Is it to make recipes freely and publicly available by putting them on the forum (and on the Internet in general) for one and all to see (and use), including members or guests to this forum, or is there a potential business purpose or motive involved (e.g., creating and copyrighting a pizza cookbook)?  Either way, there are different rules, options and risks involved.

As somewhat of a generalization (because nothing is ever certain under the law), copyright law doesn't favor copyrighting of recipes, and especially a list or recitation of recipe ingredients.  However, there are some circumstances where certain original expressions of recipes (such as descriptions of how to practice recipes) may be protectible under copyright law.  There is no doubt as to the copyrightability of collections or compilations of recipes, provided there is some aspect of originality involved.  Usually in such cases, it is not only a collection of recipes that is involved, but also original commentary and discussion, such as, for example, what Peter Reinhart did in his book "American Pie."

Oddly enough, trying to give recipes away, if that is the objective, carries legal risk, unless the recipes are completely original or they are already in the public domain and free for everyone to use. (There may also be ways of working around someone's existing copyrights in this area, but the level of legal risk goes up.)  In gray areas, you will usually find yourself looking for permission to post someone elses' recipes, as DKM properly points out.  But even in such instances, there may be duties and obligations, beyond simple attribution, attached to any permissions given, which may not be worth the effort.  IMHO, it is only worth the effort if the risk is zero and you don't have to pay anyone anything.

If the objective of the cookbook is a business-related one and the desire is to legally protect whatever is done with the cookbook so that others outside of this forum cannot use the contents without permission or a license, then this objective unleashes a series of many other things that have to be done.  Basically, it puts you in the same position as anyone else trying to put together a cookbook. I could elaborate further on this, but it would be premature to do so if the objective is not to go in this direction.  I will point out, however, that a business objective need not be limited only to a profit objective.  For example, a cookbook created by the collective work of members of this forum could be made available only to existing and new members of the forum, on an offline basis or at a place reserved only for members, or it could be used in some other, more open way to generate traffic to the site.  Again, it all comes down to what the objective is.   I think you can see why Steve's reaction to the idea of a cookbook was "I dunno".  And, with good reason.  It's just not that simple.

Peter

Offline itsinthesauce

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Re:Pizza Cook Book
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2004, 06:32:06 PM »
What a country we live in, huh? Let's just kill this idea....it's easier.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re:Pizza Cook Book
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2004, 05:00:44 PM »
itsinthesauce,

I had some additional thoughts on this subject which I have incorporated in an offline message to you.

Peter

Offline giotto

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Re:Pizza Cook Book
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2004, 01:41:47 AM »
There are a number of ways to profit from knowledge; but expecting to profit by re-publishing postings isn't one of them.  Try requesting posters' consent upon signing up to capitalize on their postings, and I think you'll see the quality of postings decrease real quick.  They'll head toward Q's waiting for A's.

Are there plans in this direction?
« Last Edit: August 31, 2004, 01:48:57 AM by giotto »

Offline Foccaciaman

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Re:Pizza Cook Book
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2004, 02:47:03 PM »
One thing that I have found very interesting and somewhat irritating, is people who do not share there recipes when asked.
Most seem to have no problem sharing a recipe that they are using.
If the recipe in question is one that may have copyright problems I could understand.
However this is a very friendly forum that shares its discovories and failures. I can also understand how some cooks/chefs would like to keep there recipes secret for competitions and or possible resturaunt ventures.
But I feel those that like to take and not share need to understand that the sharing of recipes are the things that help us all improve and get new ideas.

With all the questions from new members and guests that we get, I think that we should start a Recipe thread for doughs, sauces and toppings. I think that it would be fun and also help us all with some new ideas for what to make.
If you are anything like me when you eat at a nice pizzeria or italian resturaunt, I love to stare and think about what would be the perfect combination of toppings for the nights dinner. That is why I think even a toppings thread for us would be nice. We all know what we can use, but sometimes you can just draw a blank on what to do. So I think a menu of sorts might be nice.
Maybe under the dough recipes we can have all the rise, times and expected results along with the actual results, pictures being a bonus.

What does anyone else think..... ;D
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Offline itsinthesauce

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Re:Pizza Cook Book
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2004, 03:28:37 PM »
Now there's an idea that makes sense to me. No cost and easily accessable.

Offline giotto

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Re:Pizza Cook Book
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2004, 06:01:33 PM »
What's important for me is technique (when were things added, not added, did you use high gluten/non-high gluten, what ingredients are included and why, what is the texture, how does this make sense from a chemistry standpoint, why Grande cheese vs. Buffalo Mozz, etc.).  There's over 20 different pizza options for me within a square mile of where I live.  My objective isn't to learn how to make just what's listed.  But instead to gain enough insight to know what works, and why, so we can ultimately do our own thing.

The subjects posted at this forum contain all inclusive information and pictures around many of the subjects, and they continue to grow around that topic.  For example, there's a topic for 'try a slice" which is interesting for Neapolitan style pizzas with pictures, chemistry discussions, etc., and contains so much more than just a recipe, which becomes past tense as so many discussions occur around the topic.  Without an understanding of the thread, you'd have no idea which recipe makes the most sense.  It's the intensity of the discussions in this forum that make it so unique.  The same is true for the Chicago style, NY style, and so many other topics.

I appreciate the current Techniques, Ingredients & Pictures a great deal, which offer all the above.  While guys like Emeril have had nothing but problems providing recipes because people have little understanding of what he's actually doing, I try to follow rules of thumbs, which I'm happy to list-- it's all I know.  I just don't find it to be that easy.  

If you want to create a simple recipe thread, that's fine-- but you'll need references to all the URLs that continue around that topic under their related posted subjects under the existing topic of Recipes & Techniques, which superimpose much of the information.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2004, 06:53:53 PM by giotto »


Offline itsinthesauce

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Re:Pizza Cook Book
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2004, 06:37:49 PM »
Giotto, no question about that, the recipe is just that, a recipe. It's the technique that brings it over the top. Discussing techniques is what make this site as good as it is.

Offline Foccaciaman

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Re:Pizza Cook Book
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2004, 09:39:00 PM »
What my point is on the recipe thread, is to give many a starting point and to experiment and take it a step further to possibly improve each design.
Knowing where and how the actual working information on each personal technique may be interesting to many of us ( it is to myself) but it is completely unnecessary to direct every person to understand the working science in the process of its discovory.

There are many of us on the forum who enjoy the more technical side of cooking and baking so as to use the science of it to create a better product. Once again though the majority of the forum I believe is interested in making good and great pizza without having to take a course at La Cordon Blue Pizza Collage.

Most if not all recipes for Dough, Sauce and pizza topping variations, can be simplified in layman's terms.
Some key information as to lengthy techniques can also be simplified.
Many people joining the forum are looking for just that.
Along with regular members sharing info and tecniques, it is fun and enjoyable to help and hear from beginning pizza cooks.
But they, as so many before them want to jump right in with good recipes.
Just imagine if you can, when you first started making pizza. What if all of us had one of the great posted recipes from this site. It would have made the learning process alot easier and saved alot of time.
As for the recipe thread we can make it just that, A Recipe thread. Posting questions on another thread or sending a message to the individual with any personal questions on their recipe.

Maybe I am way off on this and others are not interested but it was just a suggestion. :)
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re:Pizza Cook Book
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2004, 09:42:39 PM »
Giotto,

I agree with everything you have said relative to technique.  However, I still like to see and read and analyze and ruminate over recipes.  That is where my inspiration and new ideas come from, and they serve as a good starting point for me to apply whatever knowledge and skills I have acquired.  The value of technique is in being able to detect faults in recipes, fix them, or improve upon them.  But technique, as valuable as it is, can't exist in a vacuum.  It has to operate on something and, to me, it is recipes.  My concern as far as a recipe site is concerned is how it will be set up, managed and policed so that the forum doesn't get into trouble for whatever might end up on the site.  I am not worried about the recipes per se.  In fact, most of the recipes I have seen at this site reflect a great amount of thought, care and technique--far more than is common even in cookbooks.  

I do agree, however, with Foccacciaman that it would be nice to have thread for doughs, sauces and toppings.  Most of the innovation in pizzas tends to be with designer or gourmet pizzas, but doughs, sauces and toppings are areas that have been worked over for time immemorial, so much so that the greater problem is separating the chaff from the wheat (no pun intended).  It would be up to us as individuals with individual tastes to determine their merit.

In addition to what Foccaciaman proposes, I would also like to see threads for such things as sources of ingredients and pizza equipment.  Much of that is currently scattered over the site, but might, over time, be collapsed into more narrowly-defined and purer threads, such as threads for cheese, tomatoes, flour, yeast, and pizza equipment--from stones, peels, screens, pans, mixers, processors, tools, etc.  To the extent that posters have had good experiences with particular vendors or suppliers, they could so note those experiences in the applicable threads, whether the favorable experiences relate to quality, service, breadth of products, timeliness, cost, or anything else.   This may mean our having to be more attentive to and being more careful about staying within the definitions of the threads that are set up.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 31, 2004, 09:50:02 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Foccaciaman

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Re:Pizza Cook Book
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2004, 10:00:32 PM »
Pete-za:

That is a very good idea on the sources and ingredients. I had to come back to the site many times and search for specific locations before I ordered certain things.  ;D
Also like you have said, personal experience with each vendor would be very nice to have also.

One thing that I forgot to add in my previous posting was that of technique. Techniques can be written, taught, shown, listened to on tape cassettes while sleeping(jk) and literally hammered into a very intelligent adept human being. However the half-wit that dropped out of school in first grade who stumbles over his own feet and gets lost in a round room can make a better pizza just from experience. The longer he does it the better he gets.
My point being that time, practice and a good recipe is all that you need. The know how comes later.
That is the reason for the recipe thread.

About 20 years ago my Shorin Ryu (martial arts) teacher told me that I should practice, so I did every day. The next time I came to see him we were working on some difficult techniques for my next belt and I was having some difficulty. I told him that I had been practicing day and night and I just could not get it right.
He watched me for a moment and then pointed out my mistake. It was a small pivot on my foot while turning that I was doing wrong. This had thrown the whole move out of wack.
He then said the words that I have never forgotten when teaching anyone anything.
"Practice may make perfect, but if you practice at doing something wrong you will only get perfect at doing it wrong"
I have noticed this in many people and proffesional sports figures. They may be very good or even great, but there is only so far that they are allowed to go with their technique, because it is flawed in the way they learned it. So they reach an invisible ceiling that holds them from becoming truly spectacular.
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Offline giotto

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Re:Pizza Cook Book
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2004, 10:29:48 PM »
Pete-zza:

Yep, pretty standard in Martial Arts I guess-- 12 years ago, I heard the same thing mentioned to another student.  And I was fortunate never to misconstrue this with making changes before the problem was first understood.  

People are often quick to make recommendations; rather than identify the real problem first.  The term "Recipe" in the search engine shows things other than actual recipes in this forum, and keyword usage can potentially help solve this problem.  Maybe Recipe should be broken out from Techniques.  There are always so many ways to resolve a problem, once the problem is understood and it's deviation from current facilities are identified.

I look at the titles in this forum and I see: Equipment, Ingredients, Techniques & Recipes, Book Reviews, and so much more.  And there are bulletins as well within each of these titles to meet the many demands people have for their different pizza interests, including NY, Chicago, tiles, stones, you name it.  The Search facility is available as well for those who wish to simplify their needs.  But if problems exist, it's likely to be more constructive to identify them first.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2004, 12:34:52 AM by giotto »

Offline Foccaciaman

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Re:Pizza Cook Book
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2004, 12:27:28 AM »
I guess the main reason that I had suggested a thread on recipes, meaning peoples recipes that they are currently having the most success with or are working on.
Along with Sauces and toppings.
My main problem is that I get stuck in a rut like many others and need some inspiration into some new pizza doughs, sauces and toppings.
I love the doughs that I make currently and the sauces but they will almost alway be a work in progress, for I will alway try and improve on them. But I have noticed that I get the greatest drive and inspiration from reading someones new attempt at a type of pizza.

We should just make sure that they are all original recipes, or that if they are taking from a book the person could just say to reference that book and these are the changes that they have made to it. Like saying that you used PR American pie recipe for Neopolitin crust and added 1blspn Olive Oil and 2 tsps of Sea salt. Or something like that. So as not to run into any copyright infringement.

I think many of us are using on standard recipe or another on a regular basis while working on others. But I feel that by puting as many of these as possible for us all to look at and comment on may help us all to improve are own as well as others. ;D
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Offline giotto

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Re:Pizza Cook Book
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2004, 01:05:50 AM »
Foccaciaman:

I have to admit, the basic ratios of ingredients that I see out there are often the same for me as well.  And just when I was convinced it was the industry's propensity to purchase 14.1% protein flour that produced the crusts that I enjoyed the most, I came across a pro's crust that is closer to an All Purpose, and this sent me back to the drawing board, including my interest to try a mixture with pastry.

It seems that there are so many unique things being stated in the bulletins though.  There are pictures where people are saying "take a slice of this... I just came up with this Neapolitan style." This is then followed by different flours and mixtures (cake vs. pastry mixtures vs. Caputo) that other posters have leveraged to meet their goals.  Heck, I avoided pastry flours before, even though I had seen them mentioned elsewhere; but I'm going to take a crack at it because this thread coincides with a current interest.  In other cases, someone's restaurant is mentioned for a Chicago style that they'd like to mimic, and some feel they attained that level and shared the result.

In my case, unfortunately, outside of toppings (ingredients, mixtures, etc.) and cooking procedures (screens, temperatures, top vs. bottom timing), as well as some techniques, I'm not satisfied quite yet and have not reached a consistency that I'm proud of for crusts.  Pro doughs that I've worked with are an exception though and I have proven that I can produce the same pizza and even better at home with their dough-- so I know where the missing link is at.  It sounds like maybe you have reached a point of satisfaction, and it's not so much the way the forum is layed out per se; but instead, the content is not telling you anything new.  
« Last Edit: September 01, 2004, 01:14:04 AM by giotto »

Offline Foccaciaman

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Re:Pizza Cook Book
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2004, 01:48:19 AM »
That is basically true. Although some of the info on the forum is scatterd around haphazardly in many directions it is not to difficult to find.
And yes in many of my pizzas I have reached point were I am always happy but alway adjusting to see if I can tweak just a little more something out of the dough, sauce or toppings. Seeing new pics of pizzas make me want to have the recipe right infront of me so I can try and reproduce it if I like its appearence. It also helps to see what mistakes I may be making on a regular basis if it does not come out similar to the picture posted.

I am currently toying with an appetizer for this weekend for some people I have coming over. Deep Dish Muffin tin pizzas. I need to get out and pick up the x-large muffin tins tommorow to try it out. If it works out I will be very happy. Hand held traveling deepdish pies. Sounds like a plan.
The rest of their meal will be stuffed roasted Roma Tomatos
Italian Pizza Fries
Stormbolis for Dinnner (ingredients unknown)
I am too good to my friends. ;D
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Offline itsinthesauce

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Re:Pizza Cook Book
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2004, 09:25:09 AM »
Sounds great! What are Italian Pizza Fries?

Offline Foccaciaman

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Re:Pizza Cook Book
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2004, 11:22:05 AM »
Ahhh there is a good question.

Pizza Fries are a love of mine from a local Italian Pizza resturaunt that I have been in love with since childhood.

I have come very close to duplicating the recipe but am still not quite there.

Essentially it is a Mozzarella pizza with no red sauce.
Make a very thin or cracker crust. (this is the one time that I recommend using a rolling pin for the dough. Stretch it to a very even thin crust, but not too thin. 1/8  inch approx..  00 or even All purpose flour will work very well for this recipe. You can also add some High Gluten flour if you like thicker crusts. But the original is very thin an crispy.
Then melt a about 2 to 3 tablespoons of butter and add a little salt and a pinch of granulated garlic or real garlic minced. Using a brush cover the entire surface of the dough liberally with the butter. depending on the size you may need more butter. (I have also toyed with adding onion salt, olive oil and a few other condiments to the coating) But the butter is the most important factor.
The one problem with this recipe is getting the right coating of butter on the dough. Too little and it will not do its job, too much on a very thin crust will get the dough too soggy and not cook properly. Do not brush the very edge of the crust or it will drip and burn.
Then add a healthy dose of cheese over the top.
Cook at 500 until bottom is crispy and cheese just starts to brown. With this thin piece of work the difference from melted to brown and then burnt is sometimes a matter of 30 seconds. so it must be watched closely after about 5 minutes (at least in my oven)

When finished remove from oven and cut into long strips about 1 inch wide. Then cut horizontally to make them into fries.
I love these the way they are but they are truly made special when dipped into the waiting hot pizza sauce.
Ahhh, these are fantastic as an appetizer and a meal. Although I make many pizzas and pizza fries I still probably have the local resturaunt send me these a couple times a month for convinience. ;D

I will be sure to post pics of the next one that I make.
Oh yeah, there is something I forgot, the butter starts to cook up and through the mozz. it is delicious.  When something is made with just cheese and butter, you know it has to be good for you. ;D ;D

Shhhhhhh, Don't tell my cardiologist. :)
« Last Edit: September 01, 2004, 11:25:13 AM by Foccaciaman »
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