Author Topic: Same day pizza isn't so bad?  (Read 2533 times)

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Offline pcampbell

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Same day pizza isn't so bad?
« on: July 30, 2007, 01:51:29 PM »
I feel like on this forum, same day or emergency dough seems to be considered sub-par, but don't many of what are considered "the best" pizza places make all of their dough on the same day?  Luzzo's, for example, I remember reading  that they make their dough that day, and when they run out, that's it, they just don't sell anymore.  What is more typical for a pizza restaurant (not pizza hut or chains) same day or multiple day dough?  Can't same day dough be amazing too?
Patrick


Offline canadianbacon

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Re: Same day pizza isn't so bad?
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2007, 02:04:23 PM »
I volunteer in a local pizzeria a few times each week, and am there to make the dough in the morning,
and they will start off their day using the dough from the day before, but when that runs out they
use the dough that was made that day, so at times the dough we have made that morning is used several hours later,
and it yields a good product, I can't even taste a difference between a slice that was made with the day before dough
or the dough that was made the same day.... but at home it is different - I really like the dough made the day before,
and 2 days before even better.

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Offline scott r

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Re: Same day pizza isn't so bad?
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2007, 02:07:27 PM »
Luzzo's does not make same day dough.  They keep regular hours and use a refrigerated dough, so therefore don't have that "running out" problem that room temp places do.  There dough is usually around three days old when they use it.  You might be thinking about Una Pizza Napoletanna, a place right around the corner that does not have a regular closing time because they close when they run out of dough each day.  They do a room temp dough, but it is actually the longest fermented room temp dough I have ever seen used in a commercial operation.  I believe it is a two to three day old room temp dough.

I know what you are saying though, you can make a good same day dough, but I would suggest not going under a 5 hour room temp rise.   This works better with flours that are designed for room temperature fermentations like Caputo.

Offline tonyp0387

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Re: Same day pizza isn't so bad?
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2007, 02:53:19 AM »
 

Scott R, why would anyone do a three day warm rise?  I bet he makes it around 10:00 the same day since he is not open for lunch. If he were to do a three day warm rise which i believe nobody in the world does. I would love to here how this can be accomplished?

Offline PizzaBrasil

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Re: Same day pizza isn't so bad?
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2007, 06:52:18 AM »
Some time ago, I wrote down in some thread the tests results about same day dough using natural preferment (you could search using pizzabrasil as a key)
The final results showed that one day fermented dough is nothing behind the refrigerated one comparing crust, cornicione and flavor.
Actually, because one of my refrigerators is broken, I am using this approach every time that there is a party with a lot of people in home.
One day fermented dough, with dough preparation around 9:00 hs (of course using alive and bubbling preferment), rest of two or three ours, division of the dough in individual ones around 12:00 hs and rest until 20:30 to 22:00 hs (first to last pizza baking)
Great results every time.
I have no doubt that the results will be excellent if using IDY (1 to 2 g /lt of water) with the same approach.

Luis

Offline abatardi

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Re: Same day pizza isn't so bad?
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2007, 11:27:20 AM »
I prefer same day dough... as long as it's using a preferment and/or a long slow rise. 
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Offline scott r

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Re: Same day pizza isn't so bad?
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2007, 06:36:36 AM »
Tony, I do three day room temp rises all the time. I have actually gone as far as four days.   You just use very very small quantities of yeast.  You should try it sometime.  Anthony told me himself that he does a three day rise, but here it is in an excerpt of a review of the pizzeria that I found on line.  If I remember correctly it is also printed on the menu.

You’ll find Anthony—cute, lean, well-tattooed, and wearing a baseball cap—at the rear of the restaurant taming the fire-breathing oven, filling its mouth with wooden planks topped with glorious pies in the making. For Anthony, the dough is key. It is never refrigerated or frozen and it takes 2 days to make it by hand. His pizza is made the old fashioned Naples way, from organic, unbleached, whole grain flour mixed with Sicilian sea salt. The dough is left to rise for 24 hours. It is then mixed again and set to rise again for another 12 hours. This dough becomes the magnificent base for a menu of four pizzas (11-inches in diameter, $16.95 each), and nothing else. The Marinara is topped San Marzano tomatoes, extra virgin olive oil, fresh garlic, fresh basil, and sea salt, the Margherita adds a layer of melting fresh buffalo mozzarella to the marinara equation, the Bianca leaves out the San Marzano tomatoes, and the Filetti forgoes the San Marzano tomatoes in favor of sliced fresh cherry tomatoes that grow sweeter from the intense heat of the wood-fired oven. You are served the pies whole—fresh, hot and steamy from the oven—and are presented with a knife and fork to make your own slices.

Offline tonyp0387

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Re: Same day pizza isn't so bad?
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2007, 11:50:51 PM »
I just can't believe someone would go to that extent for there dough if you were to higher your yeast and used  say 6 to 8 hour warm rise how much different could it taste? I have made dough using a rise of only two to three hours and have got great results? I have never had a dough that has been fermenting for longer then a half a day, so I really don't know? Scott R what would you recommend for optimal results?

Offline abatardi

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Re: Same day pizza isn't so bad?
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2007, 02:30:36 AM »
I just can't believe someone would go to that extent for there dough if you were to higher your yeast and used  say 6 to 8 hour warm rise how much different could it taste? I have made dough using a rise of only two to three hours and have got great results? I have never had a dough that has been fermenting for longer then a half a day, so I really don't know? Scott R what would you recommend for optimal results?

This is exactly why people use sourdough starters, preferments, 2 days rises, refrigerator retarding, etc... Because it does taste better. 

"I just can't believe someone would go to that extent for there dough" - real pizza shops, artisan bakeries, etc. all do this because they know the dough is the most important part of the pie.  This isn't for a Domino's 5-5-5 deal operation.

- aba
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Offline scott r

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Re: Same day pizza isn't so bad?
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2007, 03:40:12 AM »
Tony, I was driving past UPN today and I stopped in and grabbed a menu just to make sure I wasn't crazy.  Anthony says right on the menu that the dough is left to rise at room temperature for 24 hours, then re kneaded and left to rise another 12 hours.   

I have found that I agree with abatardi, the flavor is better.  I also find that the texture is effected as well, with the longer slower rise doughs being more tender.

As far as optimal results go, I have to say my favorite dough I have ever made was a 4 day room temp dough with literally a pinch of wild yeast (sourdough starter).  The pizza was not sour at all, but the texture was mind blowing.  I have never had a pizza like that before, or since. :'(
I am not sure why I haven't been able to duplicate it since, but I think it has something to do with the way my starter was refreshed when I made the dough.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2007, 03:43:38 AM by scott r »


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Same day pizza isn't so bad?
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2007, 01:57:14 PM »
Tony,

I have made and baked pizzas completely within an hour (see, for example, Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,637.msg5857/topicseen.html#msg5857), and I have made pizzas that were based on doughs that were cold fermented for up to 23 days (see, for example, Reply 117 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg42556.html#msg42556). Based on my experience, I would agree completely with scott r on the texture of the finished crust. That is, the longer the fermentation, the better and more complex the crust texture. Also, using a natural preferment/starter culture with a long room temperature fermentation will produce what I consider to be a unique texture (much like an artisan sourdough bread) that is better in my opinion than any based on using commercial yeast. I initially thought that the “geriatric” doughs I made (above 8 days) would come close to what a natural preferment would produce in terms of crust texture but such was not the case. However, the geriatric doughs came closest to achieving a similar texture to anything I have tried to date.

I do not mean to suggest that one strive to make geriatric doughs, and I suspect that it would be impractical for professional pizza operators to do this. From my reading at the PMQ Think Tank, I would say that the bulk of pizza operators use dough that is made either the same day (early in the morning for evening use) or the night before, or made and cold fermented for up to 3 days. Once in a while, you will read about an operator using dough up to 4-5 days, but that is quite rare and sometimes happens by accident. Pizza operators will also make “emergency” doughs that can be made and used within about 3-4 hours, and sometimes even less. In my experience, the finished crust for emergency doughs tend to be light in color (there is too little time to have the natural sugars extracted from the starch to contribute meaningfully to crust coloration) and the texture is not as good in my opinion as one based on much longer fermentation times, whether at room temperature or in the refrigerator/cooler. Also, the flavors in the emergency crust are not as complex as those based on doughs subjected to long fermentation times. I am not aware, nor have I read, about any pizza operator using only emergency doughs. I suspect that such an operator would ultimately succumb to better products produced by competitors.

Peter

Offline bakerboy

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Re: Same day pizza isn't so bad?
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2007, 02:34:52 PM »
One thing to take into account when asking pizza shop owners about how they ferment:  People lie.  Right to your face they will lie, lie, lie.
I'm aware that there are  pizza places the DO take the time to create a good product, but the vast majority of pizza places are same day bakes.  They may have fermented the dough overnight but its only because they don't want to waste the dough made yesterday.  I believe PFTaylor wrote about his frustration in obtaining a straight answer from a pizza shop owner on one of his visits to NYC.
" dough is left to rise for 24 hours. It is then mixed again and set to rise again for another 12 hours."
This statement could be interpreted many different ways, and I'm not saying it's not true.

Offline scott r

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Re: Same day pizza isn't so bad?
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2007, 03:20:13 PM »
I just had pizza at Isabellas oven in NYC last week.  The company at that dinner have some of the most discerning palates in pizza, Adam Kuban (slice), Jeff Varasano, and Ed Lavine (serious eats).  Everybody commented on the wonderful crust, and guess what, it was a 6 hour direct mix dough dough (unless they were lying to us).  I think it just goes to show you that there is more than one way to get good results.  I am still going to stick to my long slow methods, but I just wanted to point out that I think it can definitely be done right on a same day basis.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Same day pizza isn't so bad?
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2007, 03:37:57 PM »
scott,

Six hours actually isn't all that bad, especially this time of year where doughs are likely to be subjected to fairly high room temperatures and, as a result, a fairly fast ferment. Six hours is also within the window specified by the VPN guidelines (see http://www.fornobravo.com/vera_pizza_napoletana/VPN_spec.html), which call for a first 2-hour fermentation period and a second, 4-6 hour period. It's the doughs that can be made and used within about 1 1/2-3 hours that are likely to lack many of the positive attributes of doughs that are fermented much longer, whether at room temperature of in the refrigerator/cooler.

Peter