Author Topic: canola oil?  (Read 10229 times)

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Offline canadave

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canola oil?
« on: August 31, 2004, 11:11:15 PM »
Has anyone used canola oil instead of olive oil in a pizza?  How'd it work out?  I'm toying with the idea.

Dave


Offline Steve

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Re:canola oil?
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2004, 09:40:21 AM »
I used DKM's deep dish pizza recipe which uses a lot of canola oil. Very tasty.
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Offline Foccaciaman

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Re:canola oil?
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2004, 11:34:46 AM »
I have also used a mix of Canola and Olive oil for my deep dish. :)
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Offline mama mia

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Re:canola oil?
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2004, 12:32:13 PM »
very good! I use it often

Offline canadave

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Re:canola oil?
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2004, 06:05:12 PM »
I tried Crisco (mix of canola and other) instead of olive oil.  I'm relatively satisfied with the result.  I have to do some more experimentation with other oils.

The one thing this has shown me is that the choice of oil makes a *significant* impact on taste.  Before, I didn't really think it had much of an effect, but I'm a changed man now.

Dave

Offline DKM

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Re:canola oil?
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2004, 10:40:22 AM »
Oil makes a big inpact on taste, texture, and color.  I use canola or corn for deep dish, and olive for NY.  Thin, it just depends on my mood.

DKM
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Offline canadave

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Re:canola oil?
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2004, 11:20:43 AM »
Well, I just made a second pizza, tinkered with the amounts of things a bit, and used Crisco oil again.  This was about as "authentic" a NY-style-tasting crust as I've ever made.  I suppose I might be able to tweak it a *little* bit to make it slightly better, but by and large it was just about perfect.  I ate the whole pie in one go!  :-*

The recipe I used was largely based on Peter Reinhart's in "American Pie" (the one for regular "pizzeria" pizzas, not the elites).  I tweaked it a bit (used less of everything except the flour), used cold water instead of room temperature, and also changed the kneading method slightly.  I found that when I followed everything to the letter, the dough came out rather overpowered by the oil taste, and the "rest" period of the kneading process seemed to help make the dough too loose and relaxed.  Instead I just kneaded it normally (about 7-9 minutes in a mixer).

The oil really made a huge taste difference.  I had been using mild olive oil in previous doughs, but the Crisco pushed it over the edge and gave it a more authentic NY taste.  I highly recommend to anyone attempting a NY-style pizza that they use the Crisco--as a NYer myself, I can vouch for the positive difference it made in mimicking the taste.

Dave

Offline Steve

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Re:canola oil?
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2004, 11:35:06 AM »
Are you using Crisco vegetable oil or shortening?
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Offline Giovanni

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Re:canola oil?
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2004, 12:19:48 PM »
yea, that's what I'm wondering... is it Crisco Veg Oil or Crisco Shortening (the pastey stuff). I tried looking in several markets yesterday for Palm Oil (non-hyrdo) as mentioned in other posts but had no luck. Anyone find a place to buy Palm Oil online? Google turned up some info but no retailers.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2004, 12:20:14 PM by Giovanni »

Offline Steve

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Re:canola oil?
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2004, 12:33:04 PM »
Try a natural foods market... that's where I buy my coconut oil (for popcorn).
« Last Edit: September 10, 2004, 12:33:14 PM by Steve »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re:canola oil?
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2004, 01:26:24 PM »
Canadave,

I looked in American Pie and wondered whether it is the Pizza Americana Dough recipe at page 116 that you used.  If so, can you tell us what changes you made to the recipe in terms of ingredients and/or quantities beyond those mentioned in your post?

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re:canola oil?
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2004, 05:09:41 PM »
Giovanni,

There is a palm oil-based organic shortening (with no trans fat) that is sold under the name Spectrum Naturals, usually in small tubs, at places like Whole Foods and Wild Oats, in the refrigerated section.  That product seems to fit the description given by Giotto in one of his posts in which he discussed the palm oil-based shortening he used.  

If you want to see if there is a store near you that sells the Spectrum organic shortening products, you can use the Spectrum store locator at http://www.spectrumorganics.com/index.php?id=7.  If you find a store near you, you might want to call ahead to be sure that they have the specific product you want.  

The Spectrum Naturals products (they also have a canola-based shortening, which I have used before) are also available from sources that sell via the Internet (e.g., http://store.yahoo.com/southnatural/22506002609.html, and  http://www.organickingdom.com/ol029.html).

Peter
« Last Edit: September 10, 2004, 05:58:55 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline giotto

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Re:canola oil?
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2004, 06:13:50 PM »
Giovanni/Pete-zza:

Although I got it at a smaller market, Pete-zza's got the right one.  I have to admit though, the oils can be relative to the flour used.  The palm oil (non-hydro shortening) worked best with a very fine flour that I was working on (Giusto's 13 - 13.5% protein).  I hand kneeded 1 - 2 TBL into the flour before proceeding with any other step.  I've seen Palm Oil work effectively by a pro who switched out Canola oil for the shortening, and uses olive oil as the outside rub.

The same shortening, however, did not go over well with 10 oz of a higher gluten flour that I've resolved to use for the rest of my life, based on my latest New York style pizza.  With this flour, 1 TBL shortening (hand kneaded) gave me a bready crust with no chew whatsoever.  Then I switched to 1 TBL of extra virgin olive oil (I have a big ol' can of STAR, nothing fancy), and the texture was everything that I could ever ask for in life.  In all fairness, I did modify various steps of my procedure.  But if I can reproduce what I ate today, I'm set for the rest of my life with this crust.  

Olive oils can range significantly as well, though.  Based on what I tasted today, the tastes undoubtedly were extracted out of the dough through each of the ingredients and their impact on delayed fermentation; while the oil, unbleached high gluten flour, 60% water, and proper kneading & standby procedures assisted in the right chewy texture.  
« Last Edit: September 10, 2004, 06:27:01 PM by giotto »

Offline canadave

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Re:canola oil?
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2004, 07:08:37 PM »
Steve: It was Crisco oil, not shortening.

Peter:  Actually, I used the "New York Style pizza recipe" I think--I can't recall offhand, because I just had to return the book to the public library a few days ago :)  But it definitely wasn't the "americana" one.  In any case, I suppose I should just post my modified recipe on here:

-- 28 oz pizza flour
-- 2 1/4  cups cold tap water
-- 2 tsp plain ol' table salt
-- 2 tsp instant yeast (I used the local Safeway brand, nothing special)
-- 2 Tbsp white sugar (although I'd like to try raw sugar next time...I lost mine in the pantry!)
-- 3 Tbsp Crisco oil

I put the flour and salt into the mixing bowl, and dissolved the sugar in the water separately.  Poured the solution into the bowl and mixed on low speed for about a minute until the ingredients congealed a bit, then added the yeast and the oil while it was still mixing.  Continued mixing for about 7-9 minutes on low (no rest period).  Immediately removed dough, cut into two pieces, shaped into balls, and put them in my spray-oiled metal cookie tins and directly into the fridge.

When it came time to use a dough ball, I didn't let them warm up completely to room temperature, but I didn't use them cold either.  Somewhere in between.  I also cooked the pizzas at 475 degrees on my pizza stone--I know we've had many discussions about higher temperatures being better, but for some reason I can't figure out, my dough behaves best if it's cooked at 475--and turned on the overhead broiler for the last minute or so.

I'll also say that the pizza tasted better when prepared after two nights of refrigeration rather than one.  It was really excellent.

The yield was two somewhat thin 16" pizzas.  To really duplicate the exact NY-style pizza, I think I'll increase the flour to 2 pounds (another 4 ounces more) and maybe increase the other things proportionally.  Or not--they make nice round numbers as it is right now :)  In any case...they sure were yummy!!!!  And, as I said, tasted to my NYC tongue very similar to an actual NY pizza.

By the way...I used Saputo cheese (non-skim version) from Wal-Mart for the first time.  Interesting...it worked well.  I might try the skim version next time.

Dave

Offline Pete-zza

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Re:canola oil?
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2004, 08:24:21 PM »
Canadave,

Thanks for sharing your recipe.

What I find interesting is how many variations there are for a "New York" style pizza dough.  You use Crisco oil whereas many of us use our fancy olive oils.  I would venture to say that most professionals don't use olive oil.  It is too expensive.  For the same reason, they don't use sea salt or Kosher salt.   I use very little oil in the dough for the New York style pizza dough I make, and no added sugar.  And very little yeast.  I'm not a New Yorker, and, hence, defer to your greater experience in eating New York pizzas.  However, I am always open to try new things, and will do so with your recipe.  

Out of curiosity, did you find the use of the cold tap water to be an improvement?   I woudn't dare use the tap water where I live ;D.

Peter

Offline Foccaciaman

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Re:canola oil?
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2004, 01:22:49 AM »
Gonna give it a shot this weekend I think.
With one exception I will split the sugar content with one half Honey and one half sugar.
Looking forward to it .
I hope I have an experience as wonderful as yours was.... :)
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Offline canadave

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Re:canola oil?
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2004, 01:58:16 AM »
Peter:  I always have used tap water--in this case, the change was that I used it cold (my thinking being, it's going in to the fridge anyway for two days, so it doesn't matter much if the dough starts out cold or warm--within ten minutes of going in, it's going to be cold anyway.  Maybe I'm completely wrong in that thinking, but it seems to work anyway, so why argue :) ).

Regarding recipes and ingredients: remember that there are two "NY style pizzas," to be perfectly honest.  There's the "elite" NY, which is Lombardi's, Totonno's, Patsys, Grimaldi's, etc.  Then there's the standard "street pizzeria" one, which is, in my mind, almost as delicious.  That's the one I've been trying to emulate.  For these "street" pizzas, you probably should use at least a little sugar and a normal amount of yeast, since the crust isn't quite as thin as an "elite" NY crust.

I look forward to hearing (seeing?) the results of your (and Foccaciaman's) testing of my recipe :)  I hope it works well for both of you.  If not, I'll just blame the fact that I'm at a half-mile altitude here outside Edmonton, so all the meausrements are off kilter :)

--Dave

Offline giotto

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Re:canola oil?
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2004, 02:30:59 AM »
Any pictures of the pizza & slices?   I've resorted to colder water (below 60 F) these days too because of the hotter weather.  What was your final temp before refrigeration?
« Last Edit: September 11, 2004, 03:08:12 AM by giotto »

Offline canadave

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Re:canola oil?
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2004, 09:46:50 AM »
Sorry, no pictures :(  I wish I had the money to splurge on a digital camera!!  I suppose I could use my regular camera, but it usually takes me months to develop the pics :)  Maybe I'll see if one of my neighbors can lend me a digicam next time.

What was the temp of the dough coming out? you ask.  Good question--I have no clue :)  I also don't have a thermometer!  Actually, in contrast to you, giotto, the weather around here has gotten drastically *colder*, not hotter.  Like I said--I'm probably flying in the face of whatever science there is, but for whatever reason, it worked.

Just realized that there's a couple of things I should mention about how I cooked my pizza, for anyone who's going to attempt my recipe:

--I preheated my oven about 30-40 minutes, and prior to that, I took the dough out of the fridge and left it out for about an hour, hour and a half.  This was long enough for it to warm up a bit, but not completely to room temp.  I also took my fist and gently pushed down on the dough while it was inside the cookie tin just to get some of the air out of it.
For those without cookie tins, I don't know how well this all will work; I'll be interested in the result.

-- I docked the dough pretty thoroughly with a fork to eliminate bubbles, and used flour to keep it from sticking to the peel.  I put the dough into the oven bare, with nothing on it, for a couple of minutes just to firm up the bottom of the crust a bit; then removed it, put the sauce and cheese on, and back into the oven.

--My aim in cooking was to get the crust slightly browned on the bottom, with cheese melted and bubbling well, but not browned on top.  Depending on how you like your crust/cheese, you might want to keep a close eye on things to make sure you get your desired result.  I sort of wing it (open the oven door to let some heat escape if I feel the cheese is cooking too fast in relation to the crust, or turn the broiler on quickly if I feel the cheese isn't cooking fast enough in relation to the crust).  I don't think I'll ever have a set formula for this stage :)  I don't think I'd want one, either...this part I really love just being artistic, using my gut feeling, and seeing how it turns out, warts and all :)

--Dave

Offline Randy

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Re:canola oil?
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2004, 10:10:28 AM »
Dave I take my dough out of the cooler three hours before shaping and find it works better.

Randy


 

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