Author Topic: San MArzano Brands and Pizza Sauce & Dough Prep  (Read 3936 times)

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Offline NOLA-Man

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San MArzano Brands and Pizza Sauce & Dough Prep
« on: August 04, 2007, 02:38:20 PM »
Hi, I'm a newbie and first-time poster, very new to the pizza-making world and San Marzano tomatoes. I have a few questions, sorry for asking novice questions but I appreciate any help members can give.

1) I went to Whole Foods and also Central Market in Houston, and found Italian Farmers brand peeled DOP San Marzano tomatoes, 28oz. They have the seal for authentication that I saw on the fornobravo.com website, and they are stored in San Marzano tomato juice (not sauce or puree). Anyone heard of this brand? At Central Market (kind of like a Whole Foods on steroids) I found Carmelina brand San Marzano tomato puree, which I haven't heard a lot about on this site. Any experience with this product?

2) Regarding the peeled DOP San Marzano tomatoes, it seems that many posts suggest making a pizza sauce without cooking it (since it will be cooked in the oven on the pizza), which is new to me. My questions are, what might be a simple recipe for a not-too-experienced home pizza-maker, and (maybe answered in the recipe), do I handle the tomatoes and the tomato juice in different ways (reduce the juice, crush the tomatoes with a potato masher?), or do I work with everything together?

3) I also found Bel Aria Tipo 00 flour at Central Market, was looking for Caputo but no luck. Any suggestions for a pizza dough recipe using this flour? I have a recipe from fornobravo for Caputo tipo 00, should this work for this other brand of 00?

Anyway, if these questions have been answered 100 times over, please forgive this repetition, but any help is appreciated. Once I have something to go on, I'll be happy to report back about these products and their taste. Salut!

NOLA-Man
(As in New Orleans, Louisiana-former resident)


Offline Peteg

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Re: San MArzano Brands and Pizza Sauce & Dough Prep
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2007, 03:46:56 PM »
Nola-man, Welcome to the site.  The San Carmelina brand San Marzano's are one of my favorite brands of canned tomatoes.  I think you will have good luck with them.  I typically take the tomatoes out of the can, wash them off and put into a second container.  I then drain off as much liquid as I can, add salt & burmix on low speed for only a couple seconds.  Good luck.  Pete G

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: San MArzano Brands and Pizza Sauce & Dough Prep
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2007, 04:55:43 PM »
3) I also found Bel Aria Tipo 00 flour at Central Market, was looking for Caputo but no luck. Any suggestions for a pizza dough recipe using this flour? I have a recipe from fornobravo for Caputo tipo 00, should this work for this other brand of 00?

NOLA-Man,

When I first started experimenting with Neapolitan style doughs, the only 00 flour I could find at the retail level was the Bel Aria brand of imported 00 flour. The Caputo 00 flours did not exist at the retail (home consumer) level. I have never been able to get a spec sheet on the Bel Aria flour, but I believe it to be a low-protein, low-gluten flour. Based on personal experience, I believe it to be the most similar to the Caputo Extra Blu 00 flour, which is the Caputo 00 flour that I understand is sold by FornoBravo. Most members try to find the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour, which is higher in protein than the Extra Blu and better suited for long fermentation times (typically at room temperature). Unless you can find a source of the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour (it comes in 55-lb. bags), your best bet may be to buy the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour in much smaller bags as repackaged and sold by Penn Mac at pennmac.com. If you choose not to go that route, you should be able to use the Bel Aria 00 flour in general 00 dough recipes but be aware of its shorter fermentation characteristics. You may also have to adjust the hydration (the amount of water) used. I now reserve the Bel Aria 00 flour for making pizzas that can be completed within an hour, such as breakfast or brunch pizzas with eggs. I also use the Bel Aria flour for doughs that I bake in a Deni-2300 countertop pizza oven, as noted, for example, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,637.msg29667.html#msg29667 (Reply 47). For all other pizzas, I use the Caputo 00 flours.

The first 00 dough recipe I used with the Bel Aria 00 flour until the Caputo flours became available at the retail level is the one given at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3395.msg28790/topicseen.html#msg28790 (Reply 5). I used long knead times only to discover much later that I could have used much shorter knead times. However, the recipe met my needs at the time.

I subsequently learned (from forum member pizzanapoletana) that it was possible to increase the protein and gluten content of Bel Aria doughs by adding about 15%, by weight, of bread flour to the Bel Aria flour. I described my results at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg9367.html#msg9367 (Reply 44). The addition of the bread flour turned out to be a good option.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: San MArzano Brands and Pizza Sauce & Dough Prep
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2007, 05:19:46 PM »
NOLA-Man,

After posting, I went to the Forno Bravo website to see if I could find the dough recipe you mentioned. The only one I could find was at http://www.fornobravo.com/pizza/pizza_dough.html. If the recipe at that page is the one you referenced, I think you will have to lower the amount of water if you plan to use the Bel Aria flour. I believe the 65% hydration figure mentioned at the Forno Bravo website is intended to be for a dough that is to be baked in a very high temperature oven, not in a standard home oven. If you use 65% hydration in a standard home oven, the crust is very likely to be like a cracker, not soft as in a classic Neapolitan crust. You will also want to add some oil to the dough formulation.

I don't want to discourage you, but if you plan to use a home oven to tackle Neapolitan style pizzas you should know that 00 flours in general are not well adapted to home ovens. So, much of your time is likely to be spent in experimentation, trying to get decent results. Unless you have a very high temperature oven, such as a wood-fired oven, you might want to try a different style pizza that is a better match for a home oven. Otherwise, you might get discouraged and give up pizza making altogether.

Peter

Offline NOLA-Man

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Re: San MArzano Brands and Pizza Sauce & Dough Prep
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2007, 12:38:10 PM »
Pete-zza & Peteg,

Thanks so much for the welcome and the links and info about 00 flour. After posting yesterday, I read some threads that discussed home oven temps and the difficulty with using 00 flour in them, but your recipe Pete-zza will give me something to do with my 4 bags of Bel Aria. Are there any other types of bread recipes that 00 flour might be good for, or is this really reserved for pizza dough in commercial ovens?

Much thanks again, now on to find how to work with my San Marzano peeled tomoatoes!

NOLA-Man

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: San MArzano Brands and Pizza Sauce & Dough Prep
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2007, 01:15:58 PM »
Are there any other types of bread recipes that 00 flour might be good for, or is this really reserved for pizza dough in commercial ovens?

NOLA-Man,

I am not aware of any pizza operators who are using the Bel Aria 00 flour commercially for making pizza dough. I suspect it is being used for common baking applications--for breads and the like. As noted at Replies 238 and 239 starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg22534.html#msg22534, I would say that both the Bel Aria and Caputo Extra Blu 00 flours can be used for making bread and similar yeasted baked goods, although they can be used for pizza dough also, as many members have been doing for some time. But, for best results in a high-temperature oven where one is seeking authenticity of the Neapolitan style as much as possible, the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour is considered one of the best choices, arguably even the best choice. And it is now readily available from several sources.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: San MArzano Brands and Pizza Sauce & Dough Prep
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2007, 01:29:17 PM »
NOLA-Man,

I remembered after posting that about a year ago I entered several posts, starting at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3673.msg30921.html#msg30921, for 00 dough recipes primarily for use in a home oven setting. The recipes are for Caputo 00 flour but if you reduce the hydration in the recipes, I believe you should be able to use the Bel Aria flour. You will also note some of my recommendations in the abovereferenced Reply 3 for optimizing results in using the 00 flour a home setting. You can't simply take recipes intended for very high-temperature ovens and use them in a home oven setting.

Peter

Offline NOLA-Man

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Re: San MArzano Brands and Pizza Sauce & Dough Prep
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2007, 06:12:59 PM »
Peter

Thanks again for your reply. Another novice question, how do i calculate the hydration in terms of weight? I purchased a scale today, as most of the recipes seem to be in wight (oz or grams) rather than volume, but not sure how to lower the hydration and translate that to a recipe. Sorry for the repeated questions, but just getting into this. Thanks.

NOLA-Guy, aka Bart

Offline Garlic head

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Re: San MArzano Brands and Pizza Sauce & Dough Prep
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2007, 06:21:39 PM »
Bart,
Welcome to the forum. This link, which can be found on the home page comes in very handy for making various dough formulations using your scale.. It's my favorite part if the site! http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_tools.html
Kevin

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: San MArzano Brands and Pizza Sauce & Dough Prep
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2007, 06:32:00 PM »
Another novice question, how do i calculate the hydration in terms of weight?

Bart,

Hydration is calculated by dividing the weight of water by the weight of flour, in either grams or ounces. That calculation gives you the percent hydration. So, if you are using a flour weight of say, 10 ounces, and you are using 6 ounces of water, also by weight, the hydration is 6/10 = 60%. Using grams instead of ounces will yield the same result (1 ounce equals 28.35 g.).

Peter
« Last Edit: August 05, 2007, 06:52:30 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline NOLA-Man

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Re: San MArzano Brands and Pizza Sauce & Dough Prep
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2007, 06:54:25 PM »
Thanks, Peter, I just found this info in one of your old posts (the amount of water relative to the amount of flour, by weight). Thanks, as a total newbie (as you can surely tell), this is so much more involved than I realized. In the recipe you sent for the home-style neo pizza, (1.5c warm water, 1t ADY, 4c Bel Aria, and 1 T sea salt, with olive oil for the bowl), I have a few questions, then I'm going to give it a go. First, if i have IDY instead of ADY, should I add directly to the flour or still add to water to proof for 5-8 min? Second, I've been trying to reconcile this recipe (above) with your experiment in mixing 85% Bel Aria with 15% KA bread flour (which I bought today), but that recipe used a starter not ADY or IDY. Is it possible to do the 85-15% split, and use IDY? Lastly, if I do combine the Bel Aria and the KA bread flour, what is my kneading time and rise time (sans proofing box!), is it still approaching a little over a day (29 hours)? I believe your 29 hours were all at room temp, is it possible to put the dough in the refrigerator over night? My actual "last" question, is there a resource I can read that might get me from zero to partially fluent in understanding the basics and some finer points of dough (e.g., American Pie by Peter Reinhart or the Bread Baker's Apprentice)? Thanks again.

Bart

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: San MArzano Brands and Pizza Sauce & Dough Prep
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2007, 08:20:36 PM »
Bart,

Yes, you can substitute IDY for ADY and, yes, you should be able to use an 85/15 flour ratio along with the IDY. If you use IDY, you will need less of it than ADY. As indicated in the yeast conversion table at http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm, you would use 0.8 teaspoon IDY as opposed to 1 teaspoon of ADY. The IDY can be added directly to the flour. There is no need to rehydrate the IDY in water. As for the knead time, I don’t think you will need the roughly 30 minutes total as given for the recipe at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3395.msg28790.html#msg28790. I think a total of about 8-10 minutes should be sufficient for the amount of dough involved. I would use the two fermentation periods recited in the above post (4 hours and 2-4 hours). The 29-hour fermentation period you mentioned was for a natural preferment/starter culture application, not a commercial yeast application. Commercial yeasts act must faster than most natural preferments, especially in the quantity noted in the basic recipe referenced above. You would not be able to get 29 hours of room temperature fermentation using either one teaspoon of ADY or 0.8 teaspoon of IDY. The dough wouldn’t hold up that long. You would have to use only a few grains of ADY or IDY to have the dough last that long.

To answer your question about refrigerating the dough overnight, yes, it is possible to use cold fermentation in the refrigerator but you would want to allow plenty of time for the cold dough to warm up and expand before using. Refrigerating the dough has the effect of slowing down the rate of fermentation. You would have to compensate for that slowing effect by letting the dough warm up at room temperature. My advice is to start with a room-temperature fermentation to get a feel for the dough making and management process. You can always move on to a cold fermentation approach later.

I own several books on pizza making and honestly believe the best information on making pizza in a home environment is the information at this site. However, because the forum is an evolutionary one where members post at will on any topic of interest, the information is not organized as one might do in writing a book from scratch. If it weren’t for the forum’s search feature, and especially the advanced search feature, which I use several times a day, I would be lost, even for the posts I composed. However, I do think that Peter Reinhart’s book American Pie is a good one to learn the rudiments of making pizzas in the home. I also often recommend that new members read the forum’s Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html. If you study that glossary, you should learn an awful lot about pizza making.

Peter

Offline NOLA-Man

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Re: San MArzano Brands and Pizza Sauce & Dough Prep
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2007, 11:13:40 PM »
Pete-zza & Garlic Head, thanks again for the input and comprehensive answers to my questions. Now, I think I'm ready to venture out with my first dough tomorrow. Peter, I have spent hours today searching threads and googling (which usually lead me back here), and this will take some time, but I'm off to a great start. Your comments about getting frustrated earlier and giving up on pizza making are appreciated, the info on the site can be overwhelming for someone asking basic questions and needing some basic recipes and guidelines, but I think I have that now, and have begun to read about some of the basics regarding how the different ingredients interact and how the adjustments need to be made based on variables like the protein content of the flour. Obviously, making a great dough isn't easy and can be 86'd by variables that I'm not aware of (even things like what rack I'm using, the oven temp, how long it's fermented, etc...). Will continue my learnings, and will report back on my first dough using the 85/15 mix. Peter, thanks again for your replies and patience.

Bart

Bart

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: San MArzano Brands and Pizza Sauce & Dough Prep
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2007, 08:48:23 AM »
Bart,

I'd like to reiterate that if you will be using a home oven don't try to make the pizza skins too large (diameter) or too thin, for otherwise you may end up with a cracker-like crust. Also, don't become overly concerned about the lack of crust coloration. The use of the higher protein bread flour should help a bit with the crust coloration but if you'd like, you can also coat the rim of the dough with a bit of olive oil to get a bit more crust color, or you can put the pizza under the broiler element for a minute or so at the end of the bake to get more crust color. You can even add a bit of sugar to the dough even though that is not conventional with authentic Neapolitan doughs used in a high-temperature oven. This is one of those places where you have to adapt the dough formulation to your particular oven.

Because the bake time for a Neapolitan style pizza in a home oven is longer than in a high-temperature oven, I sometimes add a bit more of the pureed tomatoes to the pizza (usually around the melted blobs of cheese) immediately after the pizza comes out of the oven. The added tomatoes will have a fresh taste and nice red color and will be warmed up by the heat of the pizza itself. I also add the basil leaves after the pizza comes out of the oven and rely on the heat of the pizza to wilt the basil leaves. In Italy, the basil leaves are added before baking but the bake time is so short that the basil doesn't turn dark (or too dark) during baking. With the longer bake time in a home oven, the basil leaves will turn almost black. To see what I mean, you might try adding some basil leaves before baking and some after baking, and see which you like better.

Good luck.

Peter

Offline NOLA-Man

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Re: San MArzano Brands and Pizza Sauce & Dough Prep
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2007, 10:28:31 AM »
Het Pete-zza,

Thanks for the tips, I have made my first attempts this AM. I actually made 2 batches, one for table-top fermentation and one for cold fermentation. The first batch, what I did was:
-9.2 oz. Bel Aria 00
-1.6 oz KA Bread Flour
-6.9 oz H20 (at 64% hydration as you suggested)
-0.8 tsp IDY (I measured this at 0.13 oz - is this the right conversion for .8 tsp?)
-3/4 tsp salt
-Kneaded 10 min, formed a ball, placed in oiled bowl and covered with plastic wrap (the pic at about an hour of rising is below).

What I essentially did was doubled the recipe amounts you listed in your Bel Aria/KA Bread Flour recipe (except for the salt in this batch, I forgot to double). How many dough balls will this make, 2 or 4? Couldn't tell from your recipe weather each batch (half of what I did) produced 2, 12-inch pizzas (so I would have 4 total), or whether you meant that the doubled batch produced 2 total.

For the cold fermented batch, I did exactly the same thing, except for some reason this time I used 1 Tablespoon of salt, I think I pulled that from your 100% Bel Aria recipe (what is the function of the salt in the recipe?). I then divided this batch into 2 balls, oiled, and placed in plastic bags in the fridge, and will try tonight. Thanks for the tip about the tomato puree and basil, I have some nice prosciutto (Zerto, Prosciutto Di Parma of Italy) that I'll use for one or more of them tonight. I'll let you know how they all turn out. Thanks.

Bart

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: San MArzano Brands and Pizza Sauce & Dough Prep
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2007, 12:05:19 PM »
Bart,

As you will note from the yeast conversion table I previously referenced at http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm, 0.8 teaspoon of IDY weighs 0.08 ounces (2.1 grams). My practice is not to weigh the lightweight ingredients like yeast used in small amounts, even though I have a special digital scale that can weigh such small quantities. I use volumes for those ingredients. So, 0.8 teaspoons of IDY is a bit more than ¾ teaspoon. I just eyeball the measurement to give me a bit more than ¾ teaspoon.

I calculated that the recipe you posted in your last reply produces about 17.9 ounces of dough. That would be for two pizzas, not four. That is, each dough ball would weigh around 8.96 ounces. For that dough weight, I would recommend that you make pizzas that are around 10” in diameter, not 12”. That would make your pizzas have the physical characteristics of Pizza #3 at this post: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg23927.html#msg23927 (Reply 250). Pizza #3 was one of the best Neapolitan-style pizzas I produced in my home oven. It was considerably thicker than a classic Neapolitan pizza, but it was a very good pizza. As you will note in reading the abovereferenced post, I used special procedures to make Pizza #3. For your purposes, I would just bake your pizza on a preheated pizza stone and move it up briefly under the broiler if you find such necessary. You will have plenty of opportunity to become more adventuresome in how you make future pizzas.

To answer your salt question, you may find it useful to read this mini-tutorial from King Arthur: http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/salt.html. If you used 1 tablespoon of salt for the total flour amount (10.8 ounces) in the recipe you posted in your last post, that would represent about 5.5% salt, which would be highly excessive and likely to adversely affect dough performance, not to mention being very salty to the palate in the finished crust. The original Bel Aria 00 dough recipe I referenced was for 4 pizzas, with a total dough weight of around two pounds, or a bit over 8 ounces for each pizza. If you made the full recipe, I would have recommended that you make each of the four pizzas a bit less than 9.5” in diameter.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 12:47:31 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline NOLA-Man

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Re: San MArzano Brands and Pizza Sauce & Dough Prep
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2007, 12:21:23 PM »
Wow, that guideline on salt is helpful, 1.8-2%. My guess is that dough in the fridge won't be very good tomorrow, but I'll use it anyway and see how it goes. Thanks for clarifying about the number of pizza balls for the first recipe. So, I'm guessing that 3/4 tsp IDY was about correct for the recipe amounts I gave (although I didn't get the right amount because I think I measured weights based on the conversion for ADY, not IDY)? Are there guidelines for generally how much yeast (ADY and IDY) to use per weight of flour used in the recipe? Much apprecaited.

Bart

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: San MArzano Brands and Pizza Sauce & Dough Prep
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2007, 12:52:18 PM »
Bart,

The 1.8-2% salt figure your read is intended to apply to bread dough. For most pizza dough recipes, the more typical number is 1.5-1.75%. However, Neapolitan style doughs often use from about 2.3-2.7% salt (by weight of flour), and sometimes more. This is most true for doughs that are fermented at room temperature, which in Naples essentially means always. Cold fermentation of 00 doughs is largely a creation of U.S. pizza operators who use such cold fermentation to better control dough ball inventory and for convenience in running their businesses. In Naples, the pizzaioli don't use cold fermentation (00 doughs are not considered to be good candidates for cold fermentation), although they will refrigerate dough for short periods for holding purposes. It is common in Naples for pizza operators to use salt as a regulator of the fermentation process, and they will increase or decrease the amount to regulate the fermentation, often based on the season (e.g., winter or summer), and for other purposes.

There is no fixed rule on the amount of yeast to use in relation to flour. Typically, the amount of yeast to use is a function of the style of pizza (some pizza types use more or less yeast than others), how fast you want to make the pizza dough (using a lot of yeast allows you to make the dough more quickly), and whether you plan to use room temperature fermentation or cold fermentation (cold fermented doughs often use a lot less yeast than room temperature fermented doughs).

Peter

Offline NOLA-Man

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Re: San MArzano Brands and Pizza Sauce & Dough Prep
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2007, 08:32:09 PM »
For what it's worth, here's a picture of the first pie. I had 2 other pics but must not have saved them. I topped one pie with imported Italian prosciutto and pepperoni, the 2nd was just cheese, sauce and some basil added after cooking. The dough was fairly elastic (although not much experience here), and hard to speak to the extensibility, just not enough experience, but I was able to get them to about 9-9.5" as recommended, although my shaping technique will need some work to avoid the holes in the dough. Also as mentioned, the dough remained a light color, unless I just undercooked it (but bottom looked cooked and cheese was browning). I had it on 500 degrees, stone pre-heated for 1 hour +, maybe next time I'll move it down a rack and then just use the broiler at the end. Over all, I was pleased, although the afficianados would probably experience it as a novice attempt (but you should have seen what I was doing before). The crust was chewy and light, not much experience with the "crumb" and what that means, but will check the glossary. Also will have to go back and search threads for info about variables contributing to the color of the crust (has to do with fermentation time, right?). Anyway, thanks to all, particularly Pete-zza for all the help. Will adjust those salt levels and see what I get.

NOLA-Man
« Last Edit: August 06, 2007, 08:33:49 PM by NOLA-Man »