Author Topic: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!  (Read 20977 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline toddster63

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 233
  • Location: SF Bay Area, CA
Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #40 on: September 16, 2007, 02:21:52 AM »
toddster63....If you want to slow down the fermentation try cutting the yeast in half and use cold water. I store a bottle of water in the refer and it's about 40 degrees when I add it to my dough. My finished dough temp after kneading is just south of 70 degrees. It really puts the brakes on the runaway fermentation train. I also like to go with a little more salt, 2% works good and will also slow down the fermentation and help with browning.

       Villa Roma

Good tip about the cold water, Villa Roma, I've never tried that yet. I also plan on increading my salt in future batches, thanks for the 2% number to shoot for. I hope this improves flavor overall...


Offline Villa Roma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 498
  • Location: Edmond, Ok
  • In search of the ever elusive leopard spots!
Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2007, 04:53:25 AM »
Beautiful crumb.  What is your hydration at?  Looks like you got a bit of excess flour on the edge from shaping that got baked on though.  But that one just might get me to eat a slice of hawaiian.  :-)

- aba


Thanks ABA.....The hydration was 75%. The dough was really wet and it would be very difficult to knead it by hand. I used my mini fork mixer for the initial mixing and then let the dough rest for 2 hours and just stirred it with the spoon handle. I had to use a good amount of bench flour when I was shaping the pizza. Next time I'll use a preferment or my rye starter and that should tighten it up some. I just winged this so there was no recipe that I followed. Here's a link to the mini fork mixer. (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4902.msg47046.html#msg47046)

      Villa Roma

Offline Villa Roma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 498
  • Location: Edmond, Ok
  • In search of the ever elusive leopard spots!
Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2007, 06:00:18 AM »
Your corniciones look as good as some pics that Marco has posted around here, Villa Roma; you have much reason to be proud. Your tremendous oven spring is evidence that a Santos fork mixer isn't necessary for Napoletana-esque corniciones--at least in terms of oven spring.

 I know that you autolyse, Villa Roma, but how long do you generally knead for? Is there something that the dough does that you look for to tell you the kneading is done?

Thanks for the compliment but Marco is light years ahead of me. I have a great deal of respect for those that are professionals and are passionate about their work. Marco is both. I like reading his posts.

I didn't keep track of how long I kneaded this batch but I usually mix on stir for 2 minutes to combine, then autolyse for 30 minutes and finish with another 2 minute knead on stir with my KA mixer. Next time I make a batch of this dough I'll take better notes and maybe a video.

I like to let the dough develop the gluten and flavor through fermentation with a long slow rise. Chris Bianco kneads all his dough by hand and it looks like he uses a really wet dough. That seems to be the key, wet dough, small amount of yeast/starter and long fermentation.

       Villa Roma
« Last Edit: September 16, 2007, 06:28:06 AM by Villa Roma »

Offline scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3061
  • Age: 43
  • Location: boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2007, 01:00:23 PM »
I don't think chris' dough is all that wet.  If you search the pics on this forum you will see some of him with 6 (or so) formed skins sitting on peels waiting to be dressed.  With a wet dough they would stick to the peel if they were sitting on there for very long, especially since he only uses flour under the pizza.

Offline Villa Roma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 498
  • Location: Edmond, Ok
  • In search of the ever elusive leopard spots!
Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #44 on: September 16, 2007, 02:41:32 PM »
Hi scott r,

The high hydration is just a guess judging from the PF Taylor video and a picture of one of his slices.
(
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-t4xkUUjvk" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-t4xkUUjvk</a>
)

     Villa Roma

Offline toddster63

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 233
  • Location: SF Bay Area, CA
Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #45 on: September 16, 2007, 04:14:43 PM »
I agree with Villa Roma regarding high hydration for airy oven spring (and long fermentation for flavor), but high heat is also essential in my experience. I did a 77% or so hydration early on in my ever expanding pizza learning curve, after discovering Jeff Versano's site, and boy, it was wet! I could hardly get it into the oven and onto the stone, and in fact the first pie of that batch did stick to the peel and stubbornly sent the toppings off alone to break in my new at the time Fibrament stone--loads of lovely smoke with burning sauce and cheese (it made me purchase a Superpeel). At that time I was baking at 600F stone and 550F oven, and at these temps the oven spring was not good at all, despite the high hydration.

Today, I followed Villa Roma's lead, and just finished a batch of dough with KASL at 75% hydration, with the Patsy's preferment (8% of flour), and it is WET--like Villa Roma said, hard to handle and it needed at least twice the bench flour that even a 68% hydration has used around here, and this was just to knead once or twice and form into balls. It's in the fridge now, for 2-3 days, and will probably need around 4-6 hours of a warm room-temp rise before baking--we'll see, my experience with preferments and pizza doughs isn't lengthy, though I have noticed that wild yeasts take much longer to rise and activate than commercial IDY yeast...

I'm confident working with such high hydrations now, thanks to the Superpeel. I've used it for very wet focaccia breads, and it's beyond great--you can let the dough do it's second after shaping rise right on the peel, on the floured cloth belt, and then getting it onto a stone in the oven is nothing more than a simple swipe of the Superpeel's conveyor belt.

It would indeed be interesting to know what sort of hydration that Chris Bianco uses. I've heard around here that he uses Giusto's flours, which I've also seen posted are as finicky and difficult with high hydrations as Caputo is...?

Offline Villa Roma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 498
  • Location: Edmond, Ok
  • In search of the ever elusive leopard spots!
Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #46 on: September 17, 2007, 03:23:21 AM »
toddster.....The 75% dough should be pretty easy to work with considering you used KASL which is a lot stronger than the HK I used. I also used IDY instead of a starter. Should be interesting to see how it turns out.

It's all good.....Villa Roma
« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 03:25:03 AM by Villa Roma »

Offline scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3061
  • Age: 43
  • Location: boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #47 on: September 17, 2007, 04:31:42 AM »
The bubbles shown in the above bianco picture are created during proofing and are there because Chris did not smash them out when he was forming the skin (like they would have been by a typical NY style pizza maker who aggressively flattens the doughball). The other thing that facilitates the type of bubbles pictured above is a skin that is formed very close to the end of the doughs usable fermentation cycle. These are very different (but at first glance look the same) as the large voids caused by ultra high hydration and temperature such as those pictured by marco in some of his posts.  If you had cut a slice of the above pictured Bianco pizza where there was not a raised bubble the crumb would have looked much tighter. 

An ultra high hydration high temp dough (such as those in marco's pics) would have huge voids no matter where you sliced the pizza. They would happen even with an aggressively flattened doughball.

I'm not saying that Chris uses a low hydration dough, but just that it probably not as high as you may think. It is actually quite a bit lower than the 75% hydration that you guys are experimenting with. If we had some pictures of a Bianco slice that was not cut on a huge bubble you could better judge the crumb and therefore the hydration.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 04:36:09 AM by scott r »

Offline toddster63

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 233
  • Location: SF Bay Area, CA
Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #48 on: September 17, 2007, 04:47:21 AM »
To see a slice of Bianco's in a video, check this YouTube posting out:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJwkjJfuKVk" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJwkjJfuKVk</a>

Offline Villa Roma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 498
  • Location: Edmond, Ok
  • In search of the ever elusive leopard spots!
Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #49 on: September 17, 2007, 04:56:12 AM »
That guy in the video looks like FlagPull. Are they one in the same or twins separated at birth?(http://www.imcooked.com/view_video.php?viewkey=631cc6075c0f87bb4978)

    Villa Roma


Offline abatardi

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 432
  • Age: 53
  • Location: Santa Clara, CA
  • It's MOOPS!
Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #50 on: September 17, 2007, 12:03:36 PM »
Yeah that's him he posted that not too long ago here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5408.0.html

- aba
Make me a bicycle CLOWN!

Offline abatardi

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 432
  • Age: 53
  • Location: Santa Clara, CA
  • It's MOOPS!
Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #51 on: September 17, 2007, 12:07:05 PM »
I don't think anyone was saying Bianco is using 75% hydration...definitely not.  But I can't see him using below about 60% either.  And from what I remember the crumb was pretty open throughout.  I dunno, going back again hopefully early next year.  Of course there's not much to do in Phoenix besides die from heat and go to Bianco's.  I don't think Marco is using "ultra high hydration" either. 

- aba
Make me a bicycle CLOWN!

Offline scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3061
  • Age: 43
  • Location: boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #52 on: September 17, 2007, 12:54:05 PM »
I know, just trying to help anyone figuring out hydrations from pictures.  That bubble thing used to fool me so I wanted to point it out. 

Marco's preferred dough to be used in a real neapolitan forno is really high, especially considering that a caputo dough feels the same as an american flour dough at several percentages lower.  An equivilent to the typical Da Michelle hydration using american flour would be close to 70%.

Offline toddster63

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 233
  • Location: SF Bay Area, CA
Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #53 on: September 19, 2007, 02:54:37 AM »
You can see the latest (and best) results from my Pizza Bella on the following thread (this is the 75% hydration with 2% salt formulation mentioned in an earlier post):

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5579.0.html