Proofing

[Pizza_Making_Dave]

First of all, I would personally like to thank of of the people on this forum.  Especially the big players, you know who you are. 

I just started experimenting with wild yeast starters.  It took some time to get the the process going but I felt like my culture was looking and smelling great so I decided to make some pizzas for my visiting parents (I was definitely nervous).  As appetizers I made some garlic knots with one of my three dough balls.  I soon became very excited because they were GREAT .  They had the right browning, chewiness and FLAVOR.

I then made two of the best pizzas I have ever made and received rave reviews, even from myself which is always  the toughest critic.  The coloring, rise, texture, and most of all, the Flavor was GREAT. 

Again, Thank you.

My question to you all is about proofing the dough.  There is much talk about the actual cultures and recipes on this topic, but I am interested on proofing the dough.  I followed Peter Reinhart's recipe in "American Pie" for his sourdough pizza (I didn't use the first part of activating a culture, but rather bought mine).  After making the dough, I shaped it into a ball and let it rise at room temp. for 3-4 until is doubled.  I then divided the dough into balls and let them sit at room temp for 1 hour.  I then put them in the fridge.  The next day I took them out 2 hours before making.  This did in fact work great!

First of my two questions- Why does Reinhart like to let his sourdough  sit and proof so much after the dough is made before going into the fridge, while he likes his IDY dough to go almost directly in the fridge?  Is this because IDY is that much faster and you have to give sourdough a head start?

My second question:  How do you guys proof your dough?  And by this I mean the difference between IdY and Sourdough pizza.  I am specially interested in the steps from right after the dough is mixed to right up until making the pizza.

Dave

[Pete-zza]

Dave,

This is a semantic point but I believe you mean “ferment” rather than “proof” for the initial rise of the dough (in your case, the 3-4 hour period). In bread baker’s parlance, the one-hour rise after shaping and before cold fermenting the dough should qualify as “proofing”. Most pizza makers use the term “proof” for the final rise before dressing and baking a pizza, whether on a work surface (or screen or disk) or in a pan (e.g., deep-dish). I looked at the Reinhart sourdough recipe (at pages 127-127 of his book American Pie), and I notice that he astutely avoids using the terms ferment and proof. Instead, he talks about letting the dough sit for specific periods of time.

As for the question as to why Peter Reinhart lets his dough ferment and proof so long, my advice is to ask him yourself, as by sending him an email at recipetesters@yahoo.com. Several members have done this sort of thing before (me included) and he always seems to reply, especially if the questions have to do with his books and recipes.

I looked at the Reinhart sourdough recipe you mentioned, and using the information provided in the appendix to Ed Wood’s book Classic Sourdough, specifically, that one cup of starter weighs about 9 ounces, I estimate that the Reinhart recipe uses about 50% starter (by weight of flour). That amount of starter, especially if it is a highly active starter, should allow the dough to ferment and rise fairly quickly at room temperature. This would be fairly typical of the method often used for making a naturally-leavened bread dough. The one-hour proof before cold fermenting would likewise be fairly typical. That may be the reason why Peter Reinhart, whose background is in bread baking, uses this particular two-step method before cold fermenting the dough. Nancy Silverton, in her book, Breads from the La Brea Bakery, uses the identical steps for making a basic bread dough. She even uses the same ferment/proof periods.

I’d be somewhat surprised if the reason for using a different approach for IDY is the need to give a starter a head start. If the starter is highly active, and in the amounts used in the Reinhart recipe you mentioned, the dough should rise fairly quickly. In some cases, it might rise even faster than when IDY is used (of course, this depends on the amount of IDY used). I looked at all of the Reinhart dough recipes in American Pie calling for IDY, and his treatment of that form of yeast is consistent with the methods used by professionals for the particular pizza styles that Reinhart covers in his book.

BTW, it should be possible to convert the Reinhart sourdough recipe so that it can be used with the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html. To do this, you would have to decide on the total hydration for the formula dough (Reinhart specifies between 60-75%) and you would need to know the percent of water in the starter. For high-gluten flour or bread flour, around 63% would seem to be a good starting point for total formula hydration. The baker’s percents for the remaining ingredients (salt, honey/sugar and oil) are easily calculated.

I’d love to hear Peter’s response if you decide to pose your questions to him.

Peter

[Pizza_Making_Dave]

You are absolutely correct about fermenting/proofing.  I now remember reading about the differences in one Peter Reinhart's books.

I did take your advice and emailed Peter Rainhart.  I will post any results I receive.

I appreciate your quick response on the subject.

Do you have a specific method of fermenting/proofing?

Thanks again,

Dave

[Pete-zza]

Do you have a specific method of fermenting/proofing?

Dave,

I have used several fermenting/proofing methods in the past. When I first started, like most people, I used room temperatures for doughs calling for room-temperature fermentation and proofing. Then, after reading Ed Wood’s book, I made a simple and inexpensive “proofing box” as shown and described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,403.msg4887.html#msg4887 (Reply 6). Since that proofing box can’t cool a dough, it is best suited to use in the wintertime or for those instances (some of which are described in Ed Wood’s book) when you want temperatures above 90 degrees F. I then started using my wine cooler, which operates at about 55-65 degrees F (the temperature at which I store my wines), to ferment naturally-leavened Neapolitan style doughs. However, I found that range to be a bit too low (several degrees lower than the optimal fermentation temperature for such doughs) and required longer fermentation times or using more starter or warmer water to compensate for the lower temperature range.

Within the past year, I graduated to using the ThermoKool MR-138 unit, which can both warm and cool doughs or starters within a wide range of temperatures. To see what that unit looks like, and to know more about it, please go to http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5058.0.html. See also http://www.thebuzzelectronics.com/thermokool_mr138_thermokool_mr-138_deluxe_mini_cooler_and_w.htm. For the home pizza maker, for just about every dough application, the MR-138 is just about ideal. However, the capacity of the unit precludes making large amounts of dough. Some experimentation will usually be required to establish fermentation/proofing times and temperatures for a given dough formulation, but the fact that you can control the temperatures of the MR-138 gives you many advantages over the older methods. When the weather here in Texas cools, I will be using the MR-138 more than I have to date.

Peter

[Bill/SFNM]

For the home pizza maker, for just about every dough application, the MR-138 is just about ideal. However, the capacity of the unit precludes making large amounts of dough.

Peter,

Best I've been able to do is to fit 6 dough balls. Enough for a small party, perhaps.

[Pizza_Making_Dave]

I received a reply from Peter Reinhart (the very same day that I emailed him ).

Here is my question to him:

Why do you like to let your sourdough sit and ferment/proof so long after the dough is made before going into the fridge, <because it takes a long time for the freshly fed starter to grow enough new organisms to properly ferment and flavor the new starter and then the final dough> while you like IDY dough to go almost directly in the fridge?  Is this because IDY is that much faster and you have to give sourdough a head start?<Absolutely--the instant yeast is loaded with live yeast cells while the starter initially has few cells and needs to time for them to divide and multiply, via budding>

This confirms what I was guessing was the reason.  I did jump on Jeff's site and it seems he puts his wild yeast pizza right into the fridge just after a short rest.  He does use a little IDY and a longer proofing time in the fridge.  I guess that is the difference in Reinhart's and Jeff's methods:  Reinhart's method of longer fermenting/proofing at room tempature before going into the fridge lets you make your pizza the next day, while Jeff's method of going almost right in the fridge has you waiting at least a couple of days before making pizza.

If anyone would like to add anything to this subject of fermenting/proofing please do so. I am one of those guys that like to know "why" and not just "how."  The trouble with wild yeast starters is that there seems to be so many theries and methods out there.  I guess I will have to be more of an artist than a scientist

Dave

[Bill/SFNM]

If anyone would like to add anything to this subject of fermenting/proofing please do so. I am one of those guys that like to know "why" and not just "how."  The trouble with wild yeast starters is that there seems to be so many theries and methods out there.  I guess I will have to be more of an artist than a scientist

Dave

Dave,

I have tried a lot of different combinations of room temp and refrigerator, but I have had a very narrow Neapolitan-style focus which may be different from yours. The characteristics of the flour, the metabolism of the specific starter you are using at different temps, the way you mix/knead the ingredients, and the baking environment all play an interdependent role on what you taste and feel in your mouth at the end (in fact even after the crust leaves your mouth, these things can also affect the way you digest the pie, but I digress  ).

In my kitchen, wet doughs made with Caputo flour and relatively small amounts of natural starter seem to benefit more from long room temperature   fermentation/proofing. My non-expert opinion into the "why" is that the "long" part of this equation gives the starter organisms in the dough time to release the metabolic byproducts into the dough which can add the desired flavor. The "room temp" part is because the the lower the temperature, the less active the organisms. I don't know the "why" of the following: What happens if you retard the dough in the refrigerator after fermenting or after proofing. In my experience, the dough is still good, but the very best batches I've done seem to come from all room temp fermenting/rising.

When experimenting to compare different dough prep methods, being able to control the room temp within several degrees is important. The starter critters can be pretty sensitive to small temp changes.

Bill/SFNM

[Pete-zza]

Dave,

I agree that the fermentation rates of a natural starter and IDY can be different, but the differences can be made up for by selecting the proper amount of starter or IDY to use. For example, as previously noted, I estimated that the starter used in Peter Reinhart’s sourdough pizza recipe represents about 50% of the weight of flour. Apparently that is the amount of starter that is needed to have enough yeast cells to cause the dough to about double in about 3-4 hours. Obviously, to replicate the sourdough recipe using IDY instead of the natural starter, one would have to select the correct amount of IDY to produce the comparable fermentation rate. In that case, if the proper amount of IDY is used (I estimate under 1% IDY by weight of flour for normal room temperature), there would be no “headstart” issue since, all else being equal, the two doughs (the natural starter and the IDY versions) would perform reasonably comparably (with a possible flavor edge to the starter end product). Of course, Reinhart wasn’t try to address the equality issue. I think his sourdough recipe is indicative of a typical sourdough dough recipe and his IDY dough recipes are indicative of typical IDY doughs as prepared and managed by the professionals discussed in the book.

I believe a fairer comparison between using a natural starter and commercial yeast is in the context of the same recipe. An example of such a comparison is presented by a dough formulation that pizzanapoletana (Marco) posted on the forum some time ago, specifically:

1650g Caputo 00 Pizzeria
1 lt Water
50g of Criscito (starter) or 2.5g of fresh yeast
45g Sea salt

In the above formulation, the starter represents 3.03% by weight of flour, or 5% of the weight of water (the Italians base their baker’s percents on the water not the flour as we do in the U.S.)  In the above recipe, the starter comes to about a fifth of a cup (based on Ed Wood’s data). The commercial yeast—fresh yeast in this case—represents 0.152% of the weight of flour, or 0.25% of the weight of water. If one converts the fresh yeast to IDY, the IDY represents about 0.05% IDY by weight of flour, or 0.083% by weight of water. In this case, the IDY comes to a bit over ¼ teaspoon of IDY. Presumably, the results from a fermentation standpoint using the two different leavening agents would be comparable. The fermentation times will be longer than with the Reinhart sourdough recipe, because of the much smaller amounts of leavening agents relative to the amounts of flour or water, but the two doughs should end up at pretty much the same place. To me, this is an apples to apples comparison. The Reinhart sourdough recipe and his IDY recipes to me are apples versus oranges comparisons, even though they are all technically correct from a fermentation rate standpoint.

I guess the point I am trying to make with the above analysis is not to get too hung up with the relative fermentation rates of starters and commercial yeast, but rather to think of your starters in a quantitative sense, as you would with commercial yeast, and also the quality of the starters. Based on my experience, I think the most productive time should be spent on getting as active a starter as possible. Otherwise, unless you can control fermentation temperatures (as by using a unit such as the MR-138), you might find that your dough is ready to use at 3:00 AM.

Peter

[Pizza_Making_Dave]

Thank you Peter and Bill,

I definitely have a better understanding of natural starters and fermenting/proofing.  I also agree how important it is to get the culture right.  Maybe I have just been lucky, but my culture seems to be great.  I am using the Camaldoli culture and it smells wonderful and is very active. 

I will play with using less culture and/or room temperature fermenting/proofing and see what happens.  I guess I am trying to make great pizza at a time when I am ready.  That certainly happened last time.

I couldn't have done it without you guys!

Dave

[fabio]

Hi Dave,

In regards to the difference in Jeff (Varasano)'s method and Mr. Reinhart's method: I believe that Reinhart takes cold starter, feeds it, and uses it right away. Varasano says not to use the starter until it is frothy, spongy and fully active (usually about 4 hrs for my camaldoli). This would account for the difference.

Also, another proofing methodology is to use very little starter (1.5% of flour), then do a room-temp, bulk rise for 12 hours, shape into individual balls, then 3-4 more hours of proofing. This requires a) that you are very careful to use the yeast only when it is FULLY active, because such a small amount of yeast can be overtaken by contaminents in the flour if it is not active enough; and b) that you plan things ahead of time and time things carefully as you only have a one hour window with wich to play with. I have never used this technique (yet), but I've heard that it is the authentic, traditional neapolitan way (if neapolitan pizza is what you are aiming for).

Keep posting and let us know what you learn!

[PizzaBrasil]

Fabio/Dave:

Hi, I think that this thread http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4986.msg46324.html#msg46324
could give you some interesting information about this last topic.

Luis

[Pete-zza]

I believe that Reinhart takes cold starter, feeds it, and uses it right away. Varasano says not to use the starter until it is frothy, spongy and fully active (usually about 4 hrs for my camaldoli). This would account for the difference.

fabio,

In his book American Pie, for the sourdough dough recipe at page 126, Peter Reinhart says to Remove the sourdough starter from the refrigerator about 2 hours before you begin mixing the dough to take off the chill. The starter is then combined with the remaining ingredients in the recipe. Apparently the dough won't rise by 50-100% in 3-4 hours (at room temperature) without first warming up the sourdough starter for a couple of hours. There is nothing said about feeding the starter when it comes out of the refrigerator.

Peter

[fabio]

Luis,

Nice work on the experimentation! I will definitely have to give it a try this way soon.

Peter,

Thanks for the clarification on Reinhart's recipe. In the end, it is basically the same thing, but instead of feeding and adding to the other ingredients in two steps, he just adds the culture directly (which is essentially a large feeding). In any case, it definitely explains the difference between the two methods: the reinhart method does not use fully active culture and is allowed to ferment for an hour before retarding the process in the fridge.

[Pete-zza]

fabio,

I think it ultimately comes down to the activity level of the starter culture, the amount used (which can be adjusted up or down based on the activity level of the starter), and all of the temperatures involved (of the starter culture, the finished dough temperature, and the fermentation/proof temperatures). The times for everything to happen will be governed primarily by the values of these factors. A big--yet important difference--between what Jeff does and what Reinhart describes in his sourdough recipe is that Jeff uses the starter in such a small amount (like your 1.5% example) that it acts almost exclusively as a leavening agent. This is the "pizza dough" model advocated by Marco. To use a 12-hour bulk ferment and a 3-4 hour proof (at ambient room temperatures) requires that the starter culture be at its peak level of activity. Otherwise, the fermentation and proof times can be considerably longer. Too long and there is the risk that the water will be released from its chemical bonds and yield a dough that is wet and gummy. Yet, I recall Marco talking about doughs, including ones made by some of the famous Neapolitan pizza makers, going out to 20 hours or more (at ambient temperature or in controlled settings). I suspect that sometimes this is unintentional and because of exogenous factors like variations in temperatures, but that sometimes it is intentional and controlled.

By contrast, Reinhart's starter culture, because of its much greater quantity (about 50% of the weight of flour by my estimate), serves two purposes--leavening the dough and conveying preferment attributes to the dough, beyond leavening, that can affect its final qualities and characteristics. As I noted before, I think Reinhart is using the "bread" model, not the "pizza" model that Marco and Jeff use. The fermentation times that Marco and Jeff use will be different simply because Marco relies solely on ambient room temperatures (with 18-20 degrees C being the ideal range), whereas Jeff uses up to 4 or more days of cold fermentation. Marco's method will benefit most from using a Caputo flour, with low amylase activity, whereas Jeff's method will benefit most from higher-protein flours (usually malted) with higher amylase activity. Yet, however things are tweaked and changed, they still have to conform to the laws of physics and chemistry as briefly summarized in the first two sentences in this post.

Peter

[fabio]

Peter,

You are amazing and we are lucky to have you. I hope to some day posess as much knowledge as you do.

A big--yet important difference--between what Jeff does and what Reinhart describes in his sourdough recipe is that Jeff uses the starter in such a small amount (like your 1.5% example) that it acts almost exclusively as a leavening agent.

Jeff actually uses around 8% starter. In fact, I think he states that he does not see enough of a difference with the long, room-temp fermentation to merit the extra work (if you want pizza at 6pm, you have to start making it at 2:30 in the morning!). He also states that long, cold fermentation adds to the flavor because while the yeast component is less active at cold temps, the lactobacilii are more active, producing greater flavor. I have my doubts about that; what do you say?

Marco's method will benefit most from using a Caputo flour, with low amylase activity, whereas Jeff's method will benefit most from higher-protein flours (usually malted) with higher amylase activity.

Can you explain this, or point me in the right direction to learn more? Amylase is a protein or amino acid, right? I use a canadian flour called Five Roses All purpose Bleached. I have had great success with it, using the long, cold fermentation process. Do you think that that flour would benefit from a room-temp fermentation?

[Pete-zza]

fabio,

I must confess that I haven’t read Jeff’s website in a while to remember exactly what amount of starter culture he recommended. In fact, with all the experimentation that I understand Jeff has been doing of late, I suspect that he has made a lot of changes to what he described at his website. To the extent that he is contemplating using his recent results in a business venture of some sort, I can understand why he might not want to reveal his latest and best ideas at his website or on this forum. My recollection from one of the Patsy’s reverse engineering threads is that originally Jeff used close to 40% starter culture. However, that figure may have been based on using an unrefreshed, or sufficiently refreshed, starter culture. In a properly refreshed state, I believe that number went much lower. Depending on whether the 8% figure is based on the weight of water or flour, it is still on the low side, especially when compared with the estimated 50% used in the Reinhart recipe. Marco’s recommendation has been 1-5% of the weight of water. Beyond that, he deems one to be making bread dough not pizza dough (see, for example, Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3153.msg26814/topicseen.html#msg26814).

On the matter of the respective roles of yeast, bacteria (including lactobacillus), and enzymes, I know that Marco and Jeff have not always been in agreement. From what I can tell, mainly from what Marco and November have said, yeast, bacteria and enzymes perform better at higher temperatures. In fact, according to Marco, if the temperature of fermentation gets down below 5 degrees C, or 41 degrees F, the bacteria slow down and can stop reproducing (see Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1291.msg11903.html#msg11903). Many home refrigerators hover around 41 degrees F. Yet, given enough time, the bacteria will fulfill their tasks and are largely responsible for the flavors in the finished crust because of the formation of the organic acids (lactic, acetic, propionic, etc.), esters, aldehydes and other flavor- and aroma-contributing compounds.

Amylase is an enzyme. It works primarily on damage starch in the flour (usually a milling defect) and helps extract the natural sugars in the starch, which constitutes about 70% of the flour. To help with that extraction, millers (and sometimes bakers) often add additional amylase enzymes to the flours, as by malting. The Caputo 00 flours are unmalted. The grains from which the Caputo flours are milled also seem to be less susceptible to damaged starch compared with our domestic flours. You can usually tell whether a flour has been supplemented with additional amylase enzyme by looking at the falling number (FN). Falling number refers to a test that is performed on flour samples. For a good explanation of that test, see the section “Falling Number” at http://www.cooknaturally.com/detailed/detailed.html. To read more about the amylase aspects of flour, you might want to take a look at this post: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4986.msg42233/topicseen.html#msg42233 (Reply 1). Note, in particular, the posts linked in the referenced post.

For flours other than low-amylase flours like the Caputo flours, I tend to view them as candidates for both room temperature fermentation and cold fermentation. I have done both, with satisfactory results. So, I don’t see any reason why you can’t use your Five Roses flour in a room-temperature fermentation application. However, if you plan to use a natural starter culture or a preferment, you will want to get the dough formulation properly established so that the dough is ready when you are. As an example of such an exercise, you might take a look at one of my more interesting experiments with a naturally-leavened Lehmann dough, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg12644.html#msg12644 (Reply 165).

Peter 

[PizzaBrasil]

In my experience, the best results from better to great (always 100% F, 63% W and approx. 2% salt)
Ambient temperature 22-26°C
Pre-ferment with three or more feedings, alive and smart.

20-24 hs ambient temperature leavened pizza. 3, 3.5% pre-ferment. 12-14 hs proofing, division in individual balls, 6-10 hs rest until baked in 400°C wood oven.
12 hs ambient temperature leavened pizza. 7, 10% pre-ferment. 4 hours proofing, division in individual balls, 6-10 hs rest until baked in 400°C wood oven.
+24 hs refrigerated leavened pizza, 10-15% pre-ferment, 1-2 hours proofing, division in individual balls, resting in the refrigerator +24 hs (two days maximum tested), out of the refrigerator at ambient temperature by 2 to 6 hours, baked in 400°C wood oven

Luis

[Pete-zza]

Luis,

To be sure I understand your last post, are you saying that the refrigerated dough produced better results than the ambient temperature fermented doughs (using the particular flour that you use)?

Peter

[November]

It seems to me that the 10-15% preferment is a much more likely suspect in the flavor difference than the temperature alone will produce.  Obviously the fair comparison between two temperatures would be keeping the preferment the same.  I wonder if the term "preferment" is being used here to actually refer to a starter.  One doesn't usually "feed" a preferment.

- red.november

[Pete-zza]

I wonder if the term "preferment" is being used here to actually refer to a starter.  One doesn't usually "feed" a preferment.

November,

I perhaps am partly responsible for blurring the distinction on the forum between a starter and a preferment. That happened most recently when I was working on the preferment dough calculating tool. Rather than trying to maintain a distinction between a starter and a preferment for purposes of the tool, I used the term preferment loosely to refer to both, and I so noted that when the tool was introduced. In my writings generally, I have tried to distinguish between using a small amount of starter that is used essentially for leavening purposes only (the Marco model) and a larger amount that might have effects on the dough beyond leavening. For all practical purposes, the tool was intended for use in applications deploying a natural starter culture, although the tool permits the addition of commercial yeast as part of the final mix. Although I haven't advertised the tool as being useful for the classic preferments like poolish, biga, sponge, etc., it can often be used for such preferments by moving (mentally, not using the tool) the commercial yeast from the final mix process to the preferment process (before the final mix).

In the process of working on the starter/preferment terms that went into the Pizza Glossary, I ran across the same kinds of semantic problems. In researching the various terms, I saw pervasive and almost irresponsible bastardization of the classic terms used to define and describe things like poolish, biga, pate fermentee, old dough, sponge, starter, levain, etc. I think I kept the lines separate in the Pizza Glossary but no doubt a real expert could justifiably find something to fault.

Peter