Author Topic: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven  (Read 183706 times)

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Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #640 on: April 09, 2008, 09:23:45 AM »
Chris:

I would think you could do any pizza you want with a 2stone, but a Neapolitan or New York style would probably benefit the most from a 2stone.  I think the Pizza Raquel would be a good one with which to start.  Or maybe mix it up and try making 2 different types of dough and see which one you preferred, like maybe one with caputo flour and one with high-gluten.
Let them eat pizza.


Offline mmarston

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #641 on: April 09, 2008, 10:46:36 AM »
Chris,
Get yourself an IR thermometer and start out around 700 degrees. Then work your way up if you like. Really high temps work best with the Caputo or similar flour.
Nobody cares if you can't dance well.  Just get up and dance.  Dave Barry

Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #642 on: April 09, 2008, 11:21:27 AM »
Chris, and anybody else interested.

I tried to coax a few recipes from the 2stone users myself
on an earlier post. My guess is they are all busy making great
pizza!! I also think we all like to experiment a lot tweaking this
and that in search of the "elusive pie"

There are some fundamental "tips & tricks of the trade" that you pick up
after a while that relate to most recipes or should I say most flour combinations.

I am going to try to share some of mine (everybody has their own bag of tricks)
So why not call them "Fundamental tips & tricks" and if any one wants to add
to them or dispute them thats fine. The list is mostly related to the dough or crust.

1. Flour types / mixtures
2. Core ingredients
3. Measurements
4. Mixing procedures / methods
5. Proofing methods / temperatures
6. Dough handling / dividing / containers
7. Final dough handling shaping
8. Topping procedures
9. Peel tips & tricks
10.2stone baking tips & tricks

This turned out to be a top ten list.
If I have left out anything really important
please let me know.


Note:
I am a novice baker, but if there is anything that I can share
from my experiences that would be helpful I will try to cover these
points in a brief way.  (and would be happy if any one wants to add their 2 cents)


willard
« Last Edit: April 09, 2008, 01:56:37 PM by 2stone »
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Offline mmarston

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #643 on: April 09, 2008, 11:24:21 PM »
Here's the recipe I've been using in my 2Stone oven lately. Baked at 800 f for around 2 minutes.

"DiFara clone"

Flour 100%  75% 00/25% KASL
Water 63%
IDY .4%
Salt 1.72% (less is fine)

tf .08

Proof yeast in water for 10 minutes, add to other ingredients and mix in KA for 8 minutes. Room temp rise for 1 hour, punch down, fold, divide into balls, lightly oil, put in small loosely covered plastic containers and then into the fridge for 1-2 days. Room temperature rise for 2 hours and bake.

Uncooked sauce (Equal amounts 6 in 1's and gently food processered Muir Glen plums, strained as necessary to remove water, oregano, fresh Basil and  black pepper) fresh Mozz, a little parm, more oregano and minimal toppings

I'm getting ready to try something new while trying to overcome starterphobia.

I think it may be time for us to publish a recipe collection

The original development of this recipe is here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,504.msg28531.html#msg28531

and here

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5699.0.html
« Last Edit: April 10, 2008, 10:07:42 AM by mmarston »
Nobody cares if you can't dance well.  Just get up and dance.  Dave Barry

Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #644 on: April 10, 2008, 09:17:09 AM »
"Fundamental tips & tricks"


1. Flour types 

All purpose unbleached flour ……… light & airy
Bread flour unbleached ……… robust & airy
High gluten bleached / unbleached flour……..very robust, chewy, larger air pockets
Organic all purpose unbleached flour…….light & airy, closest domestic flour to Caputo
Imported Caputo pizzeria flour …… light & airy, handles high temperatures well

Blends….. Add 25-50% high gluten to Caputo and Organic for a more robust crust.
Add up to 20% whole wheat for a more rustic texture and flavor.

Some bakers claim that bleached flour produces higher gluten. I use bleached high gluten
flour and tend to agree. Otherwise all of these flours, properly executed make great crust.

marc adds: most if not all unmalted flours will handle the heat well.


2. Core ingredients

Flour / water / instant dry yeast / sea salt.

Less yeast is better. Too little salt contributes to a bland tasting crust.
The flavor is determined by salt and fermentation…..longer fermentation / better flavor




3. Measurements

I use the “Jerry Mac free form” seat of your pants, winging it, hand full of this / pinch of that method. I taste for salt content, use very little yeast for longer rising times, and determine hydration levels (water content) by the texture of the dough in the mixer and by the feel of the dough. Usually around 60-65%....... (I believe I am in good company)

Note: I do not recommend this method since it is almost impossible to share your recipes with people on this forum. (Sharing “artistic type” recipes will most likely only bring you scorn and ridicule from the scientific baking community! just kidding) Therefore measuring by weight is by far the best and most accurate method to reproduce your dough and get the same results.

more to come
« Last Edit: April 10, 2008, 09:08:57 PM by 2stone »
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Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #645 on: April 10, 2008, 09:43:05 AM »
2 stone,  I would like to add that most if not all unmalted flours will handle the heat well.  It is the malted barley itself that leads to a prematurely brown or burnt crust. 2 examples,  sperry bread flour,  hogdon mils natural white flour. just fyi for  for those who cant find caputo easily -marc
« Last Edit: April 10, 2008, 11:58:55 PM by widespreadpizza »

Offline WestCountry

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #646 on: April 10, 2008, 09:52:47 AM »
I just wanted to say…

You all ROCK!   

This is awesome information and advice. A big thanks. Keep it coming. I’m excited to get cranking on taking my pizza to the next level.

Best Regards,
 ;D
Chris

Offline mmarston

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #647 on: April 10, 2008, 10:03:06 AM »
Here's a topping tip for the list.
Good fresh Mozz is often very wet so after slicing put it between paper towels to absorb some of the moisture.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2008, 10:04:46 AM by mmarston »
Nobody cares if you can't dance well.  Just get up and dance.  Dave Barry

Offline MWTC

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #648 on: April 10, 2008, 11:50:22 PM »
I have a lesson learned.

When you bake in a tin plated steel pan, in the 2stone oven, with a stone temperature of 650 degrees, make sure the dough covers the entire bottom of the pan. Because if you don't, the pan will warp, and it won't set flat anymore. I tried baking a smaller pizza in my 12 inch pan and ....  :'(

MWTC  :chef:
« Last Edit: April 10, 2008, 11:55:42 PM by MWTC »

Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #649 on: April 11, 2008, 08:08:08 AM »
"Fundamental tips & tricks" continued


4. Mixing

autolyse….autolyse….autolyse. This is paramount for good gluten development.
Mix 100% of the water (including the diluted yeast) with 75-80% of the flour and let it sit for 20-30 min. This allows the flour to fully absorb the water. Add the balance of the flour along with the salt. Mix at slow speeds until dough develops a smooth consistency.

Find out what the optimum load for your mixer is (my DLX hits its stride at about 6-8
Cups) and stick with the same batch size, it will help you get more consistent results.
Pick a hydration level that gives the dough optimum handling characteristics. When the dough is too wet it requires more bench flour which degrades the dough quality. If it is too dry it is hard to stretch out, and will produce a tougher crust along with less oven spring. Use cold flour from the freezer or fridge. This keeps the dough temperature down while mixing. Mixing creates friction which creates heat, resulting in a tougher crust.



5. Proofing

Proofing and high heat are the two “prime magical components” of great pizza crust.
All dough is created (almost) equal. The core ingredients are the same. It is the extended proofing (using less yeast and lower temperatures) that catapults your crust into the big leagues. I like to think of bulk proofing prior to dividing as the second stage of Autolysis.

In a taste test with some friends of mine (one was a native New Yorker) with same day, 2 day, and 7 day dough, the 7 day dough won hands down. Much can be said about this subject
2Stone blog: www.2stoneblog.com


Offline dzpiez

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #650 on: April 13, 2008, 03:06:36 AM »
Willard,
Got my oven yesterday, and broke it in a few hrs. ago.  I must say it was the best pies I every made.  I used 100% Caputo pizzeria flour, got the oven up alittle over 1000, then brought it down to about 875 degrees to bake.  YOU are the man Willard.  Thanks.
Dave

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #651 on: April 13, 2008, 01:10:45 PM »
Four on Four pick-up game shootout on the 2stone

I compared 4 Varasano styled (5 day ferment) vs. a 24 hour Bill/SFNM Camaldoli Caputo method. Baking temps were between 775 - 825. 90 seconds - 2 minutes cook times for all.

League blackout rules prevented me from taking pictures (actually hungry people nixed the photo shoot).

First off, the 5 day dough was much softer and harder to work. The 24 hour dough was simple to form and pick up for the move to the peel. Crust was similar in taste, better overall on the 24 hour dough.

I did a Bianco Rosa styled pizza with Hickory smoked red onion, pine nuts, olive oil, rosemary & a sprinkle after baking of Parm Reggiano. Awesome flavor - crust really shines on this pizza - my hands down favorite. Also did some pepperoni, 6-in-1 pizza with Cantare mozz, some plain olive oil/salt pizza & some precious mozz - 6-in-1 pizza for the kids.

The 24 hour dough was a 68 degrees overnight and then moved to basement 64 degrees for the last 8 hours. Seemed like it was rising too fast at 68. I did stick it in the refrigerator for an hour towards the end to slow it down. The use of IDY in Varasano based recipe is not really needed with an active starter and I will be leaving the IDY in the refrigerator for all future pizza baking.

Offline FVG

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #652 on: April 13, 2008, 05:13:41 PM »
My Recipes for Caputo 00 Flour on the 2Stone Grill:





Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #653 on: April 13, 2008, 05:25:22 PM »
FVG,

I believe that the percents for salt and yeast in the first formulation should be 4% and 0.6%, respectively, and that the salt and yeast in the second formulation should be 4% and 0.4%, respectively. I am sure the members will find your table helpful for making multiple dough balls.

Peter

Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #654 on: April 13, 2008, 09:26:31 PM »
dzpiez,

Great to hear your up and running and got it going on.....875!! thats hot  >:D

If I remember... your one of those lucky fellows basking in the southern cal sun!!
We actually had a little more snow this weekend. (sun in the forecast) 


Pizza Not War,

Even without pictures your description: I did a Bianco Rosa styled pizza with Hickory smoked red onion, pine nuts, olive oil, rosemary & a sprinkle after baking of Parm Reggiano. Awesome flavor - crust really shines on this pizza. - my hands down favorite. was tantalizing enough to inspire me to try it out.

willard
 

thanks for the
tips and recipes

Pete,
very cool and
creative "pete-zza box"
2Stone blog: www.2stoneblog.com

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #655 on: April 13, 2008, 10:54:49 PM »

Pizza Not War,

Even without pictures your description: I did a Bianco Rosa styled pizza with Hickory smoked red onion, pine nuts, olive oil, rosemary & a sprinkle after baking of Parm Reggiano. Awesome flavor - crust really shines on this pizza. - my hands down favorite. was tantalizing enough to inspire me to try it out.

willard
 

Willard,

I forgot to mention that I made a change to the setup that seems to have really helped the results on my temperature control.

I bought a can of Rustoleum High temperature WHITE spray paint and painted the grill skirts WHITE. When you think about it, you really don't want the skirts to absorb heat - you want them to reflect heat (I would have done silver, but they did not have any left). I could have just wrapped them in foil, but that seemed less than elegant to me. I think I got a few minutes faster warm up and I was able to maintain a pretty high temp throughout an 8 pizza bake, twice my normal batch.

btw - the lack of loads of cheese on the Bianco style really cut down somewhat on the calories & fat intake, it also lets you know just how good the crust tastes. Going to try it with the Pistachio next time.

PNW

Offline dzpiez

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #656 on: April 14, 2008, 01:02:07 AM »
Yeah Willard, it was 95 yesterday, and 97 today.  So even at 7:00 pm when I fired it up it was still in the low 90's.   Thanks again and I'll be lookin' into the cart soon.
Dave

Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #657 on: April 16, 2008, 08:30:51 AM »
"Fundamental tips & tricks" continued



6. Dough handling / dividing / containers

Use little or no bench flour.  Carefully fold under and tuck up the individual dough ball in a circular motion until it develops a tight feel. Place the dough ball in the oiled container with the bottom facing up. Use larger diameter round containers. This helps preserves the integrity of the final dough structure and you will have less stretching to do.

Even though your dough ball doesn’t look as pretty upside down, it will expand and blossom on the top during proofing leaving you with a consistent skin with less chances of tearing. 



7. Final dough handling / shaping

This is where you find out if you got it right, if you did it’s a breeze. If you didn’t there’s no turning back, no fixing it. (Better luck on the next batch)

The good news with the 2stone (or another high heat apparatus) is that hydration levels are not as important regarding the final texture and crust quality. At 700-800F just about anything you put in the oven will have good oven spring.
2Stone blog: www.2stoneblog.com

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #658 on: April 16, 2008, 09:33:21 AM »
Willard,

Your list of instructions are great. Should be required reading for all pizza makers.

Bill/SFNM

Offline LabRat

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #659 on: April 16, 2008, 09:40:19 AM »
The oven arrived late Monday night and I made my first pizza in it last night :chef:!  I defiantly need to do some tweaking on the technique and also the dough recipe (Lehmann's NY style from PMQ).  The skins were difficult to form as they were prone to tearing and the bottom of the pizza got a little burned before the top was done (stone temp ~850 degrees).  Tonight is take two!  Hopefully I can learn from yesterday and make improvements!