Author Topic: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven  (Read 177533 times)

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Offline bambino32

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #680 on: April 28, 2008, 10:05:23 PM »
could you do bread in the Pizza Oven? What kind of mods would be needed?  This would make the Pizza Oven more attractive to me.

Thanks


Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #681 on: April 29, 2008, 09:26:35 AM »
Bambino32,

I am looking into it for the pizza pro. It requires an adjustable oven,
since bread requires more than twice the hight as pizza.



"Fundamental tips & tricks" cont.


10. 2stone tips & tricks. cont.

The biggest challenge with the 2stone is loading the pie in the center of the stone successfully.
If you are hesitant to begin with, use  a screen. If the screen is new, season it with olive oil in your home oven at 300-400 F two or three times before using it. You can also spray a light mist on it and dust it with flour. When using a screen you will need to raise the stone temperature by 50-100 F. If for some reason your oven has gotten too hot, the screen will also effectively reversely lower the stone temperature.

If your stone is too hot and the bottom of the pizza is done before the top, slide the aluminum peel under the pizza and raise it slightly. This will finish off the top nicely while halting the the bottom bake.
Similarly if your pizza has baked nicely on the top and the bottom needs more time, shut the oven down and let the bottom finish from the heat stored in the stone. By letting the bottom dry out on a rack for 30 sec. before you put the pizza back on the hot stone, you can also stiffen up the bottom crust if thats what you want.

The best tool for tending the pizza and unloading it is a long handled 8" long  spatula. The aluminum peel is to big to effectively move the pie around if you by chance got it loaded off center. The spatula also doubles nicely for rotating  the stone. They are available at your local restaurant supply house or on line.
(get the one with the extended handle, since the short one is a little too hot to handle.)

Learning to properly handle the pie on the wooden peel is by far one of the most important elements in running the 2stone. As mentioned before, use two peels if you can, and practice between the two. As you venture into loading larger and larger pizzas on the stone, the room for error will diminish, and the need for these skills will increase.
 



« Last Edit: April 29, 2008, 09:32:02 AM by 2stone »
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Offline canadianbacon

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #682 on: April 29, 2008, 10:40:57 AM »
Hi Willard,

That's pretty darn impressive indeed !, the bread looked very very nice !

I was just thinking... imagine if you had the original 2Stone oven, ... you know the 4 corners that the top is
welded to.... ?

Imagine if that was adjustable, - imagine the 4 corners having 4 pieces of steel that have holes in them, and the upper
part of the oven ( the top ) had little "steel pegs" ... now imagine this, - if you want to do pizza, you just move the top
of the oven down a few pegs, and it snaps into the holes.....

Want to bake bread ? ... just lift the top up, and it pops into the upper holes.  In fact, the 4 corners could have maybe 3 holes
so that it would be considered "fully adjustable "

My description may not be great, but I am seeing in my head that strapping you use to hold up pipes ( with holes ) but of course in the 2Stone this would be the heavy metal you use that would used.

Think of the lawn mowers, - years ago, you had to remove the wheel, by removing the nut and bolt, and then you'd move the wheel from one place to an upper hole and then put the bolt back in ( that's the system I'm thinking about ) ( of course today, this doesn't exist, and you just push a little lever and that is how the lawn mower wheel is adjusted ) but I'm thinking of the old way of doing it.

Updated idea: After drawing my diagram just now, I realize this first idea is not that great.  What I would do, is create 3 simple
lengths of sides "supports"  or "struts"

3 lengths.
- Short - : Pizza
- Medium - Flatbreads ( ? )
- Long - Bread

Both the bottom and top of the 2Stone would have welded pegs. 4 pegs on the bottom ( base ) of the unit, 4 pegs at the top.
If I wish to make bread, I simply take the 4 "long" struts or whatever you call them, and simply attach the 4 of them onto the
2Stone.

Bingo, - it's done, and ready to go. 

I want pizza ? ... quickly take the 4 "long" struts off, and replace with the 4 "short" struts. 

This would take mere seconds to accomplish.  The pegs would have heads on them, to ensure the unit doesn't fall apart.

Doing it this way, would mean that no other holes are needed on those struts.  Just one on each end ( to attach to the base ) and one hole at the top to attach the top.

Maybe a nutty idea on my part, but I can see this working in my head.

Mark
« Last Edit: April 29, 2008, 10:57:19 AM by canadianbacon »
Pizzamaker, Rib Smoker, HomeBrewer, there's not enough time for a real job.

Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #683 on: April 29, 2008, 11:03:49 AM »
Hi Mark,

The benefits to baking pizza in the 2stone are huge, since it is not possible to get the home oven up to those temps, and doing it between 2 stones 3" apart with enormous amounts of convection heat are also huge.

My question is are most people generally happy with their home baked bread (baked in a standard oven) and are there really that many people seeking alternative baking methods. In the survey it looks like about half of the pizza bakers also bake bread half of the time. It is of coarse easier to to justify the cost if you can do more than pizza. I have a prototype now that I am testing with an adjustment from 3" to 6" and it work very well. The oven spring is enormous at around 700F but you have to keep misting the bread or you'll have burnt offerings within minutes. Then the question is what is the ideal bake temperature? If it is 475-500 you are  sort of back into the home oven territory. I don't know....... you are a baker, do you really feel that you could step up the quality of your home oven or are you more or less satisfied. (I guess that becomes the dominant question.)   

willard 


Oh I didn't see your picture at first, nice picture..... you are a pretty good sketcher
I must say. Yes I have a variation on that theme in my prototype where I have two side rails
mounted higher to raise the top.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2008, 11:15:08 AM by 2stone »
2Stone blog: www.2stoneblog.com

Offline canadianbacon

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #684 on: April 29, 2008, 11:14:11 AM »
You have a good point Willard.

Truthfully, I think that if I were to bake in bread in the 2Stone, it would be *for me* more of a gadget
and more of something to impress friends who happened to be over while it was baking, and having them
say "oh that's cool"

In reality, bakers do not bake their bread at 700 degrees, and one of the reasons is that the texture and
inner bread formation needs a more delicate temperature to correctly bake. Some things just don't need to be
baked for 4 minutes.  Faster is not alway better. ( look at the CD / DVD industry, for a long time people were all hung
up on how fast they could burn a CD, and now people realize that the slower you burn, the better quality your CD or DVD actually is.)

 Different breads bake differently, and no doubt it's nice to have a loaf of bread from a bakery that uses a wood fired oven, however the ovens
are not kept at 700 degrees. 

I guess everyone is different, and everyone will use their oven for a different purpose, so it's really up in the air.

Edit: and yes, if my oven were adjustable, I'd probabally try to bake some bread in it from time to time just because it would
be fun.  However, I see your point, - is it really worth the extra effort and design change, if not that many people are going to buy it.
There's something good to be said about the current 2Stone.  It's a pure pizza oven, and it does an amazing job, because that is what it was designed to do ... Pizza !  ;D

« Last Edit: April 29, 2008, 11:17:10 AM by canadianbacon »
Pizzamaker, Rib Smoker, HomeBrewer, there's not enough time for a real job.

Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #685 on: April 29, 2008, 11:24:20 AM »
I'm just playing the devil's advocate Mark,
as you say the normal temperature is lower
for bread which also means the bake time is longer
now unless the quality of the bread is hugely different
I'm just wondering. The 2stone bakes flat breads like
pizza, pita, naan, etc. incredibly well because of the low dome
and the high heat, something you cannot get in the home oven
or on the grill.

willard

I was hoping that a 6" dome would work for pizza as well, but in tests
it did not turn out well at all, so the close proximity of the stones is a must.

« Last Edit: April 29, 2008, 11:35:00 AM by 2stone »
2Stone blog: www.2stoneblog.com

Offline kasmir

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #686 on: April 29, 2008, 08:46:44 PM »
Willard
   What about a lever to raise and lower the upper stone? Raise stone and easily load pizza. Lower stone and bake top to perfection. Raise stone and remove pizza. Also the adjustable top stone may allow you to control baking pattern to get bottom and top to cook evenly.

Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #687 on: April 29, 2008, 10:36:45 PM »
That's an idea Kasmir..... I think Mark makes a point... even if you can do it is there really that many
people who are dying to make bread that way. (other than a novelty) The 2stone is built for high
heat and as Mark (who has worked as a baker) points out that is not the heat you need for bread.
We do have a sliding burner on the Pizza Pro which facilitates the adjustable feature.

I have made 6 loves of bread now in the 2stone and have to admit making pizza is a hell of a lot more exciting! To get a good bake I think you have to go at least 30 min with lower temps. with bread. So that more or less puts it in another category. It also makes more sense in a wood fired oven where you can load up 5-10 loaves at a time. Hard to say.....I think the verdict is still out there on this one.

willard

Kasmir, Your idea is interesting....... I would be hesitant to do anything that could potentially raise the price, unless there were significant advantages.  Loading the pie is easy once you have learned the techniques. I don't believe unloading it has ever been an issue, at least I've never heard of it.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2008, 10:34:58 AM by 2stone »
2Stone blog: www.2stoneblog.com

Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #688 on: April 30, 2008, 07:04:08 PM »
Here is a version of Jerry's one day recipe done in the 2stone
I also posted it on Jerry's thread. I can highly recomend this for
a one day bake. The flavor and the texture of the crust really surprised me.

We also tried something for a super fast bake that lends itself well to the 2stone.
This Tostada only took 30 sec. to do and came out as good as any I have ever had.
If you want to try something else with your 2stone, this is certainly a viable alternative.
I had the stone at 650 and turned the heat on full blast for the 30 sec. bake.
One thing I learned is that you have to rub flour into the tortilla or it will stick to the stone.

My son Tyler who is a far better cook than me, made up the Tostada's   

willard
« Last Edit: April 30, 2008, 07:38:46 PM by 2stone »
2Stone blog: www.2stoneblog.com

Offline WestCountry

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #689 on: May 01, 2008, 12:39:58 AM »
Willard,

Nice!
I tried JerryMac's dough recipe twice now (in my conventional oven) with great results, but your 2stone bake looks like it takes that pie to a whole new level! Nice job, and thanks for sharing some pics. Its good to know that recipe works for 2stone.

PS. The tostadas look pretty great too.

Chris  ;D


Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #690 on: May 01, 2008, 12:30:29 PM »
Yes Chris, Jerry's dough recipe is quite good.
He certainly isn't making any false claims when
he says it has good oven spring.....wow....!!!?@*%&

Here is a dough ball left over from yesterday's Jerry Mac dough,
I flattened it down to about a 1/2 an inch and ran it for about 5 min. 
2Stone blog: www.2stoneblog.com

Offline canadianbacon

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #691 on: May 01, 2008, 01:16:16 PM »
Hi Willard,

those 2 images are so good they should be in a high-end food magazine or book.

Amazing texture in the 2nd image.... !  :chef:
Pizzamaker, Rib Smoker, HomeBrewer, there's not enough time for a real job.

Offline bambino32

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #692 on: May 01, 2008, 08:11:12 PM »
Willard

Are you saying that the 2stone pizza oven cannot bake at 500? Not all pizza is baked at 700+ degrees.

Thanks

Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #693 on: May 01, 2008, 08:51:45 PM »
Thanks Mark, Amazing oven spring in that dough.
Have you had a chance to try out the charcoal / gas yet?

Bambino,

No that is not what I am saying. Just turn down the heat and you can have any
temperature you want. What I am saying is that if you try to make something into
a "jack of all trades" it may not be as good as if it sticks to what it does best, which is
pizza or flat breads at high temperatures with intense radiant / convection heat.

Much the same as this forum. If this forum were to take on all baking subjects it would no
longer be what it is now, which is one of the most informative forums on pizza related issues.
As it stands now, there are several flat breads: Pizza, Pita, Naan, Lefse, and Tostada's to name
a few, that benefit from a specialized high heat oven geared specifically for that type of baking.

regards,
willard
2Stone blog: www.2stoneblog.com

Offline canadianbacon

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #694 on: May 01, 2008, 09:11:44 PM »
Hi Willard,

I like the idea of the 2Stone staying as a true-blue pizza oven.  It stays 100% what it was created for
and isn't diluted.

Now.... another thought that came to mind, is to create a an authentic "bread oven".

Introducing the 2Stone Bread Oven.  - this product is higher in height, perhaps more insulated, closed in areas where
the pizza oven is not, and is not intended for pizza.  It's a bread only product. 

Just like Mcdonalds does, by adding cheese to a burger, and now had created 2 different products, you could probably
have a lot of success with a 100% tried and true *bread oven *, and promote it as that.  Many of the purists on these
bread groups could be looking for that "perfect solution" to baking bread outdoors.

There are many many many bread forums out on the net, and they love bread making, and most of them don't even make pizza
so there is indeed a big market for this type of bread oven.
Pizzamaker, Rib Smoker, HomeBrewer, there's not enough time for a real job.

Offline canadianbacon

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #695 on: May 01, 2008, 09:16:30 PM »
Hi Willard,

I haven't yet.  :-[, I haven't even fired up my BBQ this season.

Thanks Mark, Amazing oven spring in that dough.
Have you had a chance to try out the charcoal / gas yet?

Pizzamaker, Rib Smoker, HomeBrewer, there's not enough time for a real job.

Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #696 on: May 01, 2008, 09:44:30 PM »
Hey Mark,

You make a good point. They are really two different animals.
Also it seems to me that you would want to bake more loaves
at one time. How many loaves do you bake at a time when you
do bread? and out of curiosity what is your standard temperature
and how long does it take to bake your bread.
And you never know..... maybe being able to do both would be an option.
It would add to the cost and no one likes to spend any more than they have to.
So....... Canadianbacon, Kasmir and Bambino it's all "brainstorming"

willard
« Last Edit: May 02, 2008, 09:21:11 AM by 2stone »
2Stone blog: www.2stoneblog.com

Offline pcampbell

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #697 on: May 04, 2008, 11:51:55 AM »
I am curious how or if the upper stone gets hotter than the bottom? I was under the impression that the top needs to be hotter than the bottom to cook both the top and bottom evenly since the bottom is touching the stone and of course the top is not.

I was thinking about just throwing together a sort of 4 or 5 sided rectangle of fire bricks within my grill and was wondering if it would work before I waste time and fuel.  I know it is not ideal but we had some kitchen work started earlier than anticipated.  I know it would probably take hours to heat up at 2" thick.
Patrick

Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #698 on: May 04, 2008, 01:09:17 PM »
Pcampbell,

We use a steel plate with an air space between the stone and the plate on the bottom and a thinner stone with an aluminum heat conductor on the top to bring both stones to temp at the same time. You could use thicker material, it means you will have to heat up the increased thermal mass considerably longer to reach the high temps you are looking for. It is nice to have the top as hot as possible, but if you are willing to bake in the 650F range you can expect better results than if you are shooting for 800+. It's in that temp. range that everything becomes a lot more critical and difficult to manage.

willard
 
« Last Edit: May 04, 2008, 01:16:57 PM by 2stone »
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Offline canadianbacon

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #699 on: May 06, 2008, 10:01:05 AM »
Hi Willard,

I'll usually do at least 2 loaves at a time, I should do 4, but I love baking too much, and like to
repeat the process more often, just because I find it very soothing to bake.  Just like many guys in my
beer club that like to make 20 gallons of beer at a time, I like doing 5, just because I love to do it more often,
and it's a great way to just relax and learn more about the process.

I usually bake at 375 degrees F for about 40-50 minutes, but, many times i'll up that temp to 425 for the first 15 mins or so
just so I get some really good oven-spring on the bread.

Here's an interesting link "The Perfect Bread" by Mikael Jansson
http://mikael.jansson.be/journal/2008/03/the-perfect-bread

Baking bread in an outdoor grill:
http://www.breadtopia.com/2007/07/31/grilled-bread/
This gentleman uses a "Cloche" top on top of a pizza stone.  Interesting
as I have never done this before out on a grill.

Here is the same gentleman doing sourdough pizza on his bbq.
http://www.breadtopia.com/pizza-dough-recipe/#Sourdough_Pizza
( nothing special here, but thought I would post it, if you wish to watch it )

( I think this guy needs to learn about the 2Stone  :P )

I also came across this one, 2 woman grill some pizza, directly on the grill.
I've never done this before:
http://allrecipes.com/HowTo/Grilling-Pizza-Video/Detail.aspx



Hey Mark,
How many loaves do you bake at a time when you
do bread? and out of curiosity what is your standard temperature
and how long does it take to bake your bread.
Pizzamaker, Rib Smoker, HomeBrewer, there's not enough time for a real job.


 

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