water temperature question

[abilak]

So, I have been using my Cuisinart to make 2 14" = 16" dough balls for the last year or so. I always chilled my water to 50 degrees or so and processed the dough until the dough temp was about 83 or so. Obviously the friction of the Cuisinart makes the dough temp rise quick. Typical kneading time was around 1 - 1.5 mins, with some pauses in between.

Here is the deal. I just bought a Kitchen-Aid Classic 10 speed 4qt. Mixer with the dough hook. I made dough with it but, the temp didn't turn out right.
This time I used water maybe around 60 degrees or so. Put the water in the mixing bowl, added flour, then other ingredients, and combined at the "1" speed setting. As the dough started forming, I switch to speed 3 out of 10 and kneaded for 7 mins. The dough was combined well, but the dough was still cold. It didn't really go up in temp at all. I was looking for a dough with a finish temp of around 82-85 deg. Do I need to heat up my water to 88-90 before I start to get this finish temp? How is everyone else doing it with one of these mixers? Thanks!

[abilak]

I just read something that says to use about 100 deg. F water or so. Once again, I am using Fleishmann's Instant Yeast (http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/navigate.do?dest=5&item=195374)
I imagine the initial water temp depends on your air temp, and flour temp.
I would say my air temp is 74 deg, and the flour has to be around the same because that is where it is stored.
Any suggestions?

[Randy]

90F to 100F will work well in a KA mixer.  I use the lower temperature (90) for a two day rise in the cooler and 100 for a one day rise in the cooler.  Speed 3 is a bit high for a KA mixer, use speed 2 per your instruction manual.
Another possible problem is batch size.  How much flour are you using?

Randy

[Pete-zza]

abilak,

Water and finished dough temperatures can be quite tricky, especially when using a new mixer for the first few times. The 100 degree F temperature you mentioned is the temperature normally recommended for rehydrating active dry yeast (ADY), although some instructions on yeast packets of instant dry yeast (IDY) often recommend temperatures above 100 degrees F when the IDY is combined with dry ingredients. Those higher water temperatures are usually intended for home bakers to essentially guarantee that the doughs will rise, which is the most common problem experienced by home bakers. The instructions for professionals are different, since they presumably are smarter than home bakers in the minds of yeast producers and can work better with lower temperatures. If you look at the packages of IDY sold to professionals you will ordinarily not see water temperature recommendations.

The finished dough temperature in any given case will depend essentially on the ambient room temperature, the flour temperature, the water temperature, and the frictional heat component contributed by the mixer itself, which is sometimes referred to as the friction factor. The friction factor is determined primarily by the type and model of mixer used, the shape of the mixer bowl and the particular attachment(s) used, the dough batch type and size and its hydration, and the speed(s) and durations of the mixing/kneading. Autolyse and similar rest periods will also affect the finished dough temperature, as may the introduction of starters and preferments (depending on the amount and temperature). Changing the dough batch type and size will result in a different friction factor, even if everything else remains the same.

Many operators arrive at the right water temperature for achieving the desired finished dough temperature for the particular batch type and size used by selecting a water temperature and adjusting it in five degree increments in future batches until the desired results are achieved. You might try using water right out of the tap as a starting point and go from there.

Peter

[abilak]

90F to 100F will work well in a KA mixer.  I use the lower temperature (90) for a two day rise in the cooler and 100 for a one day rise in the cooler.  Speed 3 is a bit high for a KA mixer, use speed 2 per your instruction manual.
Another possible problem is batch size.  How much flour are you using?
Randy

I am using 3 cups of flour in a 4.5qt mixing bowl to make two 14" dough balls. Is this too little?

This is the exact mixer I have (http://www.amazon.com/KitchenAid-K45SS-Classic-250-Watt-2-Quart/dp/B00004SGFW) - Speed 2 is the recommended setting? How long should I be mixing the dough, like 7-8 minutes?

I am taking a wild guess at this, but there didn't seem to be much of a friction factor.. the dough didn't get much warmer then when I started. Once again I was using the dough hook.

[Randy]

The amount is perfect.  If you don't have a KA manual go to the KA site and you can find a download. For texture purposes I run mine on speed1(stir) for 2minutes then let it rest for 5 min, then run for 5 min then rest for 5min then run for 7 min.
I would get the manual first and read it for sure.

Randy

[abilak]

Randy, what is your average starting water temperature?

[Randy]

I would say 90F.  How much yeast are you using?

[abilak]

1/2 to 5/8 tsp of IDY for 3 cups of flour.

[Randy]

1/2 to 5/8 tsp of IDY for 3 cups of flour.

Peter has some real good thoughts in his post so be sure to read his comments.

You might do this already but if not, make sure you have a rest period of 5 min to 30 min.  (starting with 15 min should get you going) after the dough comes together and most if not all the flour has been picked up.

Fom the looks of your pizza, you got things going well.

Randy

[abilak]

Ha ha, that dough was made with my cuisinart before I bought the kitchenaid.. I used that thing for over a year and kinda mastered it. I am going to try your suggestions, thanks.

[David]

Here is the deal. I just bought a Kitchen-Aid Classic 10 speed 4qt. Mixer with the dough hook. I made dough with it but, the temp didn't turn out right.
This time I used water maybe around 60 degrees or so. Put the water in the mixing bowl, added flour, then other ingredients, and combined at the "1" speed setting. As the dough started forming, I switch to speed 3 out of 10 and kneaded for 7 mins. The dough was combined well, but the dough was still cold. It didn't really go up in temp at all. I was looking for a dough with a finish temp of around 82-85 deg. Do I need to heat up my water to 88-90 before I start to get this finish temp? How is everyone else doing it with one of these mixers? Thanks!
I would say my air temp is 74 deg, and the flour has to be around the same because that is where it is stored

O.K. I'm using the info you gave and came up with this formula using the info from Jeffrey Hamelman in his "Required Reading' Book......BREAD A bakers book of techniques & recipes.
Try this :

Required Dough Temp = 82 degrees. Multiply this figure  x 3

      = 246

minus actual flour Temp of  74 degrees
minus actual room Temp of 74 degrees
minus KA Friction factor of 28 degrees      =    requires a water temp of 70 degrees.

This friction factor may be adjusted up or down depending upon the final results for your particular mixer / hook /speed combination etc.The other variables also as required.
A word of advice...buy the book - it goes into things and explains much better than i can.Also i'm fairly dumb ,not too boook smart and managed to figure it out ,
Good luck
David

[Pete-zza]

The subject of water and finished dough temperatures has been discussed on many occasions by Tom Lehmann, with a typical article being this one: http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml. Until David posted, I hesitated to reference the foregoing article because forum member November appears to have serious reservations about the general applicability of the methodology proposed by Tom Lehmann. See, for example, the series of posts beginning at Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4929.msg42615.html#msg42615.

Peter

EDIT (1/25/13): Since the link to the above Lehmann article is no longer operative, see the Wayback Machine link to the same article at http://web.archive.org/web/20070502014430/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml

[Bryan S]

I never worry about water temp or the finished dough temp. I add room temp spring water mix up the dough, weight out the dough balls and place them in the fridge for 7-14 days, and make pizza, it's all good. Yeah I'm not the norm but been that way my whole life and I ain't about to change now. 

[2stone]

Pete-zza

Now that you are getting deeper into the temperature
question, I may as well ask this question on this thread.
In a practical sense the temperature is essentially the gas
pedal of the entire process, low temp = slow and high temp = fast.
I speed up the initial yeast process and then slow it back down
with frozen flour. The middle of the entire cycle is this
extended proofing cycle. Then at the end of the temperature
controll process, a drastic increase occurs.(baking) That is naturally
where I have spent most of my efforts. At the end of the process
steam becomes the dominant force, (oven spring) Contrary to everything I
have read, I have seen higher oven spring when the temps are lower going into
the oven. Would this be caused by increased elasticity. As the dough is heating
up it is being transformed from a liquid to a solid. The higher the heat,
the higher the steam burst. The lower the temp going inn the longer the steam process.
Sorry if this is a little off subject, but the temperature question is obviously extremely relevant
to the entire process.

regards,
willard  

[November]

Contrary to everything I have read, I have seen higher oven spring when the temps are lower going into the oven. Would this be caused by increased elasticity. As the dough is heating  up it is being transformed from a liquid to a solid. The higher the heat, the higher the steam burst. The lower the temp going inn the longer the steam process.

Willard,

There are a couple things that you could be referring to, but it seems the primary one is of general oven spring, versus something like surface bubble formation.  In general oven spring, steam is certainly important, but you must also remember gas expansion is also important.  If Balloon A is filled with 5 psi of cold air and Balloon B is filled with 5 psi of warm air, Balloon A will contain more air due to the higher density.  So when Balloon A enters a region of hot air (e.g. oven) it will have further to expand than Balloon B to equalize the pressure between the inside and outside of the balloon.  In addition, one should realize that the tensile strength of dough is higher when it's cold, so it's also able to hold in more pressure before a substantial amount of gas begins to leak.  Those are two things that give cold dough the advantage if you're looking for really large voids in your crust.  The problem (as some admit) occurs when that second "advantage", along with pockets of liquid, contribute to surface bubble formation.  Of course, in the big scheme of things it's about temperature gradients.  Even a warm dough going into an insanely hot (1100°F+) oven will spring more than a cold dough going into a normal (550°F) oven, relatively speaking.

- red.november

[Pete-zza]

Willard,

Temperature is definitely one of the elephants in the room, but yeast is a second elephant in the room. I rarely talk about one without the other in the context of dough fermentation because they are joined at the hip. It is possible to control the fermentation process by using flour that has been frozen, as you have done, but I prefer to use colder water instead. The one time I tried using frozen flour I found that it had little effect on the finished dough temperature. For the amount of flour I was using, it came up to room temperature pretty fast. I know that Beverly Collins, who once worked in research for one of the major pizza chains (I think it was Domino's), once suggested using frozen flour to keep the finished dough temperature down. If I recall correctly, I believe that tidbit came via MWTC in his thread on a poolish-based dough.

Peter

[David]

Until David posted, I hesitated to reference the foregoing article because forum member November appears to have serious reservations about the general applicability of the methodology proposed by Tom Lehmann.

I seriously hope you don't hesitate to reference any article on account of me or my inebriated ramblings Peter ...

[ManChicken]

Lately I have just been using water straight out of the fridge from a filter pitcher.. mostly because it's been summer and hot and I have no AC so the ambient temperature would get up to 85 some days in the kitchen!  But now that it's cooled off I've been doing the same thing and my results have been just as good as any (which, granted, are for my standards which are possibly quite a bit lower than others  )