Author Topic: I have pizza block  (Read 1632 times)

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Offline mama mia

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I have pizza block
« on: September 19, 2004, 03:50:22 PM »
 ??? I can't think of any new ideas for pizza, I have turned to strombolis, and they are my favorite for this month..
 Anyone want to help me think of new pizza recipes? I have made every kind on this board, and I have reached a road block...  I don't want to make the same tasting pizza, but I hate to waste good ingredients on something that I will hate. [I know bad habbit]  I really want a totaly new NY dough recipe, as some of you know NY style pizza is my favorite,   here is my basic one...

1lb hi-gluten flour
2 t sugar
2 t yeast
1 1/2 t salt
1T oil

I use a pizza screen....
 I NEED A CHANGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

what changes do I need to make to have a very poofy, airy crust???   help me guys!!


Online Pete-zza

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Re:I have pizza block
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2004, 04:12:30 PM »
mamamia,

How much water and what form of yeast are you using in your recipe?  Also, do you want to stay within the boundaries of what is usually considered to be a New York style pizza dough?  

Peter

Offline Randy

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Re:I have pizza block
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2004, 05:14:57 PM »
The water temperature can effect the puffyness of the dough.  Post the directions that go with your recipe.
Is this puffy enough?
« Last Edit: September 19, 2004, 05:16:52 PM by Randy »

Offline mama mia

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Re:I have pizza block
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2004, 11:22:28 AM »
I use over 9 oz water, my dough is very sticky.

I use room temp water, and have been using 1-2 teaspoons yeast..  [red star bread machine yeast] mix in my kitchen aid, pause, mix again.. let rise in the fridge 24-48 hours.

my dough is very poofy, but it is not as light as I would like, I have had crust that is very light and airy, with lots of holes, and bubbles, and it was the best. Is this due to the heat of my oven?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2004, 11:23:28 AM by mama mia »

Online Pete-zza

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Re:I have pizza block
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2004, 01:07:27 PM »
mamamia,

If you are using 9 ounces of water for 16 ounces of flour, your hydration percentage is a little over 56%, which is at the low end of the range for a New York style dough.  If you are using "over" 9 ounces of water, as you indicate, then you would be moving further into the hydration range depending on how much over the 9 ounces.  

As for the other ingredients, it seems to me that 2 t. of instant dry yeast (bread machine yeast) is too high relative to the amount of flour used.  If you are using 2 t., I would suggest cutting it back to about 1 t.  Too much yeast can cause a dough to overferment, even in the refrigerator, and cause carbon dioxide to escape and result in a weakened dough structure with poor oven spring. I would also try cutting back the salt to 1 t.  Salt regulates the fermentation process and cutting it back should allow the dough to increase its volume (and compensate in part for the reduced amount of yeast) as opposed to tightening the dough and inhibiting its rise.  The rest of the ingredients seem to be within the normal ranges for a New York style dough based on what I have seen from the recipes and the favorable results posted at this site.  

Often, a simple step that can be taken to increase dough volume and increase the number of holes in the crumb is to increase the amount of water used.  This is basically what is done for breads like ciabattas, which are full of large holes.  The increased water content should also improve the crispiness of the crust.  Another step that you might take is to let the dough rise for a half hour to an hour after you have formed and shaped the dough into a dough round and before dressing and baking.   Usually, when a refrigerated high-gluten dough with added sugar is taken out of the refrigerator, it can tolerate several hours at room temperature before forming and shaping.  So you have a fair amount of time to let the dough rise before shaping, etc.  

Other small steps that might be considered is to add a little bit of milk (scalded and then cooled) for part of the water used in the recipe, to provide added softness to the dough.  Also, substituting honey for the sugar (and slightly reducing the amount of water to compensate for the liquid in the honey) may also help provide a softened crumb by coating the gluten strands more effectively than sugar.  The combination of olive oil and honey serve to trap the moisture in the dough (as well as flavors) and also to slow down the gelatinization of the starch and the coagulation of the gluten during baking, resulting in a softer, more moist crumb.  I must warn you however that using these approaches may produce a more bread-like character and not have the more characteristic "New York style" chewy and leathery quality to the crust.

I think the biggest factors to accomplish what you are looking for is to increase the amount of water used, and let the pizza dough round rise some before baking.  If you are using a pizza screen, you can also prebake the dough round (you may have to dock it first) before adding the toppings and finishing the baking.  This should allow the dough to have a better oven spring, unimpeded by the weight of the toppings.  You didn't indicate what bake temperature you are using, but you might consider lowering the temperature a bit to allow the pizza to cook a little bit slower and longer.  

While it isn't usually recommended, if you want a lot of bubbles, you might consider working your dough while it is still cool coming out of the refrigerator, i.e., shaping, dressing and baking it.   The cutoff temperature is around 50 degrees F, that is, you will get the bubbles if you bake the dough when its temperature is below 50 degrees F (and sometimes above that if you are using a lot of yeast).  You may have to dock the dough and you may get larger bubbles than you want, so you may have to experiment with this approach to get it where you want it to be.  

The thing that puzzles me most about what you have reported is the stickiness of the dough you have been getting from your recipe.  You may want to carefully weigh the flour and water as a start, and make adjustments to flour and/or water to get the dough to the point where it is sufficiently kneaded, soft and elastic and capable of passing the windowpane test.

Peter

Offline mama mia

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Re:I have pizza block
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2004, 03:52:30 PM »
wow thank you for the detailed information... I printed it out infact, and will use this today..  

I have been trying a few different recipes, I normaly use just under 10 oz, minimum 9oz...  but for 16oz of flour should I ever go over 10oz water?

I don't want a bread like texture, but a very thin, light NY style with an airy poofy crust,  I am going to cut back on the salt and yeast, and will pull out my food scale..  I think I will try out the milk as well.

I do however knead until soft and elastic, and do the windowpane test.. what I think I might have done wrong is in the yeast as you stated.  would it help if I hand knead the dough some, after the kitchen aid?

thank you, this is motivating me to make some more pizza!!

Online Pete-zza

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Re:I have pizza block
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2004, 06:10:12 PM »
mama mia,

I can't speak for all New York style pizza dough recipes, but the one I use calls for 58-65 percent hydration.  Ten ounces of water for 16 ounces of flour would give you 62.5 percent hydration, about in the middle of the above range.  You may be able to go above the 62.5 percent hydration level, but you don't want to have a really sticky and messy dough, since it will be tough to handle and dress (and possibly stick to the screen or peel).  What I do under these circumstances is to remove the dough from the stand mixer and knead it by hand with a little bit of bench flour--just enough to take away the stickiness and no more.   If you can achieve this, the dough should help produce a slightly more airy crumb.  I know a lot of recipes for New York style dough call for a fair amount of kneading, but I would carry it only to the stage where the dough passes the windowpane test and get the dough into the refrigerator (in a lightly oiled container--metal is a good choice) as soon as the kneading is complete.   Overkneading can result in a dense and compact dough structure.  (In fact, when making high-hydration ciabatta breads, which has many large, irregular shaped holes, the kneading of the dough is almost always done by using a bench knife instead of mixers or even the hands--because it is so sticky and messy that it can't be handled by the hands).

One way to get added poofiness is to avoid shaping and stretching the dough near the outer edge.  Try starting to stretch about an inch or two away from the edge so that the edge always remains large and puffy.  Since you want a thin crust elsewhere, you should stretch the dough until it is paper thin in the region away from the rim and you can see light through it.  That will pretty much determine the maximum diameter of pizza you will be able to make with the amount of dough you are using.  When the crust is baked, the rim should expand even more and be airy with bubbles and holes, and the rest of the crust--if we are lucky--should be thin and crispy yet flexible.  

Use of a screen is wise since baking the pizza on a preheated stone will cause the crust to brown too quickly because of the rapid caramelization of the sugar (or honey) in the dough (as well as the oxidation of the olive oil).   If whatever you do produces a product that is still too bready, I would suggest that the next time you try cutting back the amount of yeast even further and possibly cut back or eliminate the sugar altogether (and maybe even use cooler water to slow down the fermentation and dough expansion).   You can always work back in the original direction in your future efforts based on the results you achieve.

While you can try using a little bit of milk (or even dried milk that has been reconstitued in warm water), doing so is not common with New York style doughs.  You may want to pass on the milk this time around, and possibly even the honey substitution, so that you keep the number of variables down, making it easier to identify cause and effect.  If you throw everything but the kitchen sink into your dough, you will never know what was responsible for what ;D.

Good luck.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 20, 2004, 06:15:42 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline RoadPizza

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Re:I have pizza block
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2004, 10:54:17 PM »
??? I can't think of any new ideas for pizza, I have turned to strombolis, and they are my favorite for this month..
 Anyone want to help me think of new pizza recipes?

Ever tried making a white pizza?  Instead of a tomato based sauce, use milk mixed with ricotta (or sour cream or cream cheese to make your very own faux ricotta) and some pepper and minced garlic.

Calzones are pretty much like strombolis (except you add ricotta).

How about putting a top/lid on your pizza and make a stuffed pizza?  It's not that difficult with a little practice. . .