Author Topic: Caputo: So Far, EXCELLENT...! (VIDEO LINK)  (Read 3525 times)

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Offline toddster63

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Caputo: So Far, EXCELLENT...! (VIDEO LINK)
« on: September 20, 2007, 11:50:37 AM »
Caputo, Caputo, Caputo... I've read a LOT about Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour around here over the last months, both positive, negative and ambivalent. So, when I finally felt I had the experience (and heat) to work with this often prized flour, and my Caputo arrived here, it was exciting, and a little scary...

I made my first batch of pizza dough with Caputo last night, and I gotta say that just by mixer performance alone, I can tell this is a very different product from any American flour I have used so far to make pizza doughs or breads. A couple months ago I upgraded my mixer to a KitchenAid 600 6 quart with the spiral dough hook. The spiral dough hook has been a big improvement over the old C dough hook, most notably on larger batches of dough, 4-5 cups of flour and up. For my more frequently made, smaller, batches of pizza dough (for myself and the dog), around 2 cups of flour, the spiral dough hook has been less effective. I chalked it up to the smaller size of the dough mass in the large 6 quart bowl. I found myself, with these smaller batches of pizza dough, as with the former C hook, having to stop the mixer, scrap the dough ball down off of the spiral hook, and re-start to get the dough in active kneading again. It would often form a ball around the hook, not kneading the dough to its full potential--better than the C hook, yes, but not as effective as I had seen it perform with larger masses of dough where it would slice and fold the dough much like hand kneading. This happened with pizza dough formulations from KAAP, KABF as well as KASL, in hydrations ranging from 58%-75%.

But the Caputo in the same smaller formulation (10 oz flour) acted MUCH different. I could see the Caputo being a little fussier about hydrating, but I was expecting that. But after a 20 minute autolyse, and adding the last 20% of the flour, I was amazed and thrilled to see the Caputo dough acting textbook perfect in the mixer with the spiral hook. It slowly formed a nice solid dough mass, not too sitcky or wet, yet picking up almost every last trace of mixer bowl residue, and then proceeded to knead about as perfect as a dough can be kneaded by the KA spiral dough hook--being folded over and over, the hook gently slicing through the dough mass, while incorporating a little air into the mix. And it did this for almost a solid 8 minutes, never balling up around the hook and subsequently causing a much less effective knead like the American flours have so far in these smaller batches.

The finished dough was beautiful--very soft and pliant, and just very slightly sticky.

I made a video of the last minute of mixing, and posted it on YouTube. It is of the last minute of the 8 minute kneading cycle, and it's only toward the very end of the kneading (as you can hear the kitchen timer in the background signaling the end of the 8 minute kneading) that the Caputo dough starts to form a ball around the hook and not knead perfectly in the mixer--and it's still not as severe as the American flours have reacted in the same small formulations. Really blew me out of the water.

Here is the video:



The dough is 64% hydration, composed of 10 ounces flour, and 6.4 ounces of water--enough for two 8.25 oz dough balls for 12"
pies.

The dough is now in the fridge for two days, and will be baked this weekend at around 850F/stone... Can't wait...!


Offline Peteg

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Re: Caputo: So Far, EXCELLENT...! (VIDEO LINK)
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2007, 12:43:32 PM »
Toddster,
             What's your oven setup?

Offline jasonmolinari

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Re: Caputo: So Far, EXCELLENT...! (VIDEO LINK)
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2007, 03:20:22 PM »
I believe he is using a modified Deni 2100.

Of which i'm very jealous, given i'm still waiting for mine DAMNIT!

Offline toddster63

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Re: Caputo: So Far, EXCELLENT...! (VIDEO LINK)
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2007, 05:30:29 PM »
Yeah, my pies are currently being cooked in a Deni 2100, modified all over the place (most notable with the thermostat. I can get the stone up to 1000F)... Seriously considering setting up a Little Black Egg possibly too...

Offline hopgeek

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Re: Caputo: So Far, EXCELLENT...! (VIDEO LINK)
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2007, 07:34:51 PM »
Toddster,

Could you provide the other % in your dough recipe?  Yeast, salt, starter? 

I made my first Caputo 00 dough last night too and did not have a similar looking result, mine looked more like what you described of your experiences with KA flours.  I'm also using a KA 600 mixer.  I used Varasano's breakdown of 63.5% H2O, 2.4% flaked kosher salt, 8% poolish(50/50), no yeast.  I mixed for ~2 mins w/ 75% of the flour.  Alot of the flour at the bottom did not want to incorporate so I had to assist with a scraper.  Then, 20 min autolyse covered.  Mixed for another 8 mins gradually adding in the remaining flour.  I then let it rest for 10 mins covered.  At the end, mine seemed like a really thick batter and stuck to pretty much every surface it touched.   ???

Also, I made enough for 5 300g dough balls.

Thanks in advance!

Offline toddster63

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Re: Caputo: So Far, EXCELLENT...! (VIDEO LINK)
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2007, 09:03:03 PM »
Toddster,

Could you provide the other % in your dough recipe?  Yeast, salt, starter? 

I made my first Caputo 00 dough last night too and did not have a similar looking result, mine looked more like what you described of your experiences with KA flours.  I'm also using a KA 600 mixer.  I used Varasano's breakdown of 63.5% H2O, 2.4% flaked kosher salt, 8% poolish(50/50), no yeast.  I mixed for ~2 mins w/ 75% of the flour.  Alot of the flour at the bottom did not want to incorporate so I had to assist with a scraper.  Then, 20 min autolyse covered.  Mixed for another 8 mins gradually adding in the remaining flour.  I then let it rest for 10 mins covered.  At the end, mine seemed like a really thick batter and stuck to pretty much every surface it touched.   ???

Also, I made enough for 5 300g dough balls.

Thanks in advance!

Wow, Hopgeek that is strange indeed. Our mixing procedure sound so similar...? I too had a hard time getting the flour to incorporate, and scraped often during the first couple of minutes of mixing before the autolyse. But as I posted, it really came together after that. In this batch I am using only IDY, so I can get a feel for the Caputo alone--so NO preferment or wild yeasts in this one. Humidity in my Southern California apartment was average--around 55%.

Caputo 00 Pizzeria        283 g/9.97 oz              100%
Water (purified)           180.86 g /6.38 oz           64%
IDY                            0.48 g/.16 tsp             0.17%   
Salt (sea)                     5.65 g/1.01 tsp              2%     

Offline abatardi

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Re: Caputo: So Far, EXCELLENT...! (VIDEO LINK)
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2007, 09:19:02 PM »
Are you factoring in the water in the 50/50 8% poolish into the 63.5% already?

- aba
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Caputo: So Far, EXCELLENT...! (VIDEO LINK)
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2007, 10:03:38 PM »
Are you factoring in the water in the 50/50 8% poolish into the 63.5% already?

Aaron,

If the flour and water in hopgeek's 8% poolish are added to the formula flour and water, the "total" hydration would be around 64.9% by my calculation, which would make for a very wet dough, especially if Caputo 00 flour is used (its rated absorption is around 57%), along with rest periods. This is based on the poolish being 8% of the weight of the formula flour. I don't recall offhand whether Jeff's spreadsheet adjusts the total formula water to account for the water in the preferment. I'm sure hopgeek will set us straight.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 20, 2007, 10:05:51 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline abatardi

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Re: Caputo: So Far, EXCELLENT...! (VIDEO LINK)
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2007, 10:33:53 PM »
Yeah that's what I'm saying.. if that wasn't factored in it would be over the top for caputo. I'm pretty sure Jeff's spreadsheet breaks it down but not sure if he used the spreadsheet or not.

- aba
« Last Edit: September 20, 2007, 10:42:17 PM by abatardi »
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Offline hopgeek

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Re: Caputo: So Far, EXCELLENT...! (VIDEO LINK)
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2007, 03:58:32 AM »
You know what, I did not compensate for the hydration of the poolish and it seems that Pete's calculations are pretty much spot on.  I'm still learning this stuff, hydration percentage wasn't even in my lexicon 2 months ago (this is my 3rd batch of homemade dough).  That said, is 63.5% vs. 64.9% a huge difference? 


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Caputo: So Far, EXCELLENT...! (VIDEO LINK)
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2007, 07:54:23 AM »
That said, is 63.5% vs. 64.9% a huge difference? 

hopgeek,

I asked myself the same question. Ordinarily, that difference might not be a big deal, and there are many variables in a typical home setting that might cause such a spread, but I think that you (and most inexperienced dough makers) would have found the 63.5% hydration dough hard to handle also. Guys like pizzanapoletana (Marco) and Bill/SFNM are masters at working with very highly hydrated Caputo 00 Pizzeria doughs because of their vast experience in working with such doughs (without the need of a SuperPeel). Most Caputo dough recipes call for hydration percents in the 50s, which is more in line with the absorption rate of the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour.

Sometime you might give the preferment dough calculating tool a try. It is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html. That tool automatically compensates for the water in the starter/preferment if the correct numbers are entered into the tool, especially for the starter/preferment. You could still end up with a wet dough if the percent of water in the starter/preferment is off, but usually you can adjust for any material deviations by adding more or less flour or water as the dough is being mixed and kneaded.

Peter

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Caputo: So Far, EXCELLENT...! (VIDEO LINK)
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2007, 09:53:06 AM »
hopgeek,
You could still end up with a wet dough if the percent of water in the starter/preferment is off, but usually you can adjust for any material deviations by adding more or less flour or water as the dough is being mixed and kneaded.

You should also not underestimate the importance of how you combine the flour and water. Things you are doing like rest periods and adding the flour in stages can make a big difference in the workability of the dough.

Bill/SFNM

Offline abatardi

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Re: Caputo: So Far, EXCELLENT...! (VIDEO LINK)
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2007, 12:48:35 PM »
You know what, I did not compensate for the hydration of the poolish and it seems that Pete's calculations are pretty much spot on.  I'm still learning this stuff, hydration percentage wasn't even in my lexicon 2 months ago (this is my 3rd batch of homemade dough).  That said, is 63.5% vs. 64.9% a huge difference? 

Removing bad information, haha  >:D

- aba
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 03:12:27 PM by abatardi »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Caputo: So Far, EXCELLENT...! (VIDEO LINK)
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2007, 02:21:49 PM »
Aaron,

Can you tell me how you came up with 67.5%? I did the calculation based on the total dough weight, which was 1500 grams for 5 dough balls. I added up all of the baker's percents and got 173.9% (100 flour + 63.5 water + 8 preferment + 2.4 salt). Dividing 1500 by 1.739 gave me 862.56469 grams of flour. 8% of that is 69.005175 grams of preferment. The water, at 63.5%, is 547.72857 grams. Splitting the weight of the 50/50 preferment between flour and water and adding those weights (34.502587 grams of each) to the formula flour and water yields a final hydration of 64.9% (582.23/897.07). Did I err somewhere?

Peter

Offline abatardi

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Re: Caputo: So Far, EXCELLENT...! (VIDEO LINK)
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2007, 03:11:43 PM »
Haha, nope, I messed up.  I didn't include the weight of flour in the starter.  :-D

Either way I did a test this morning and made 2 balls w/ caputo.. one 63% and on 67%.  They were both manageable to me and seemed pretty similar... so something else may be going on.  My caputo is pretty old and may have dried out though. 

- aba
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 03:13:17 PM by abatardi »
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Offline abatardi

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Re: Caputo: So Far, EXCELLENT...! (VIDEO LINK)
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2007, 03:16:08 PM »
hopgeek try a batch with just 500g caputo, 300g water, 10g salt and like 1g of IDY just as a test (omit the starter) and see if that is any better... you can increase the hydration as you get better with it, but trying to go super high hydration may not be the answer for your setup anyway.. post pics up of the dough if you can.

- aba
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Offline scpizza

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Re: Caputo: So Far, EXCELLENT...! (VIDEO LINK)
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2007, 03:20:47 PM »
Starting humidity of the flour plays a major role.  I'm in a humid environment now and much above 60% hydration and my caputo starts to get too slack.

Offline hopgeek

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Re: Caputo: So Far, EXCELLENT...! (VIDEO LINK)
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2007, 04:36:31 PM »
I'm in San Diego, and since Toddster mentioned that he's in Southern California I would imagine the ambient humidity is similar?  Is there any way to acurately tell what the humidity is like in your kitchen? 

I have been keeping my flour in the freezer as I have a pretty big problem with weevils in my cabinets.  I homebrew beer as well and end up with a lot of critters wanting to invade my dry malt extract and bins of specialty grains.  Will storage in a cold environment cause an increase in dough humidity?

Next batch I will go with Aaron's suggestion and simplify my recipe, lower hydration and IDY instead of the preferment.  Maybe I started too advanced? 

On a side note - I built my sourdough starter with some wild yeasts/bacteria used in brewing sour ales, I obtained the critters from a brewery in Santa Rosa - its a blend of brettanomyces, lactobacillus, pediococcus, acetobacter, kloeckera apiculata, and of course whatever is present on the flour.  So far it has worked pretty well.