Author Topic: First Caputo doughs . . . 3 techniques (w/pics)  (Read 3085 times)

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Offline fabio

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First Caputo doughs . . . 3 techniques (w/pics)
« on: September 22, 2007, 07:19:44 PM »
On my first try with Caputo pizzeria flour, I made three batches of dough:

Dough 1 (4-day, cold ferment):
  Caputo: 100%
  Water: 56%
  Salt: 2.4%
  Starter: 8%

Dough 2 (15 hour, room-temp rise):
  Caputo: 100%
  Water: 56%
  Salt: 2.4%
  Starter: 3%

Dough 3 (15 hour, room-temp rise):
  Caputo: 100%
  Water: 60%
  Salt: 2.4%
  Starter: 3%

I've attached two pics; the first is of dough 1 and dough 2, the second is of dough 2 and dough 3. Two things are obvious: the cold dough, which had been out at room temp for a couple of hours when the pic was taken, did not rise nearly as much as the two room temp doughs; and the cold dough was much more slack than the room temp dough at the same hydration.

The best dough of the bunch, in terms of handling and baking (at about 400C) was dough 3. That said, even that dough was still too dry for my liking. I'm used to handling pizza dough (made with AP flour) at 72% hydration, so i found that these 3 batches were more difficult to spread, were much more elastic (they retracted too much), and they were only very slightly less likely to tear. Dough 2 wast the second-best performer, and dough 1 was the worst of the bunch. All three batches were less burn resistent than my usual AP flour doughs; these batches would burn at the bottom before they were browned on top. They did seem to produce more delicate and slightly less chewy pizze, though. I'm guessing that they would improve even more in that regard with higher hydration.

My conclusion is that room temp is the way to go. Next I want to try an even longer rise, with a higher hydration, and more salt. Here's what I'm thinking:

Next dough:
  Caputo: 100%
  Water:  64%
  Salt: 2.8%
  Starter: 1.75%

By my calculations, that would result in about 64.3% hydration. I can handle wet doughs, but is that OK for caputo? Would this recipe allow me to do a 20 hour room temp rise? How long should the bulk rise be for, before shaping?

PS: Sorry, I did not take any pics of the finished product. :(


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: First Caputo doughs . . . 3 techniques (w/pics)
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2007, 08:34:42 PM »
fabio,

After reading the three dough formulations you described in your post, and before reading the rest of your post, I paused to guess which of the three doughs was likely the best one, and also to rank order the three doughs on the basis of performance. I came up with the same rank order as you did. I think that 56% hydration is too low, although 60% is better. My preference is around 62-63% for a Caputo 00 dough in my oven (a standard home electric oven).

Your proposed dough formulation for your next effort reminded me of the one I used and described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg25847.html#msg25847 (Reply 95). In my case, I used more starter than you propose to use (and it was fairly immature), but in my case I kept the dough in my wine storage unit, which is kept at between 55-65 degrees F. Using less starter in your case, but keeping the dough at room temperature, which I assume is above the 55-65 degree F range, I think you should be able to use the proposed 20-hour rise time, unless your kitchen is really up there in temperature. A hydration of around 64% may be a bit high but if you are accustomed to working with very hydration doughs, I don't see 64% hydration as being a particular problem. If you plan to make a dough batch for several pizzas, I would think about dividing the dough batch into several pieces about 3-4 hours before you plan to use the individual dough balls. It's hard to be precise on this point since the times will depend on the specific starter and its level of activity and also the room temperature at which the dough is fermented/proofed. But I think you are in the ballpark with your proposed dough formulation.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 22, 2007, 08:36:31 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline toddster63

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Re: First Caputo doughs . . . 3 techniques (w/pics)
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2007, 02:29:30 AM »
I just finished tonight making my first pizzas with Caputo Pizzeria, at 64% hydration, 3 day cold ferment. Was not hard to handle at all, but was a little more elastic than KA flour formulations  at similar hydrations (I'm thinking in particular of 70% KASL). I want to try a really wet Caputo dough next, I think I will try 68% for my next Caputo batch.

Thanks for the tip on the room rise, fabio, I want to try that. More like true Neapolitan.

I found the Caputo tonight to be as most have posted, less burning and browning than with American flours, and I baked at 850F for 3 minutes. It seems that you found the opposite to be true, fabio...?

I too found the Caputo to be more delicate and softer (less chewy). But I have to say it was the best crust I have made so far--I only used IDY and these Caputo pies were more flavorful and rich and depthy in taste character compared to the KAAP, KABF and KASL I have used previously, including those with the Patsy's/Varasano preferment. And the bits of char on them was much more enjoyable and not as "burnt" tasting as on the American flour based pies. Also the oven spring was excellent, with a pronounced "stringy" quality.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2007, 02:36:26 AM by toddster63 »

Offline zandonatti

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Re: First Caputo doughs . . . 3 techniques (w/pics)
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2007, 09:08:12 AM »
Toddster,

For your 64% hydration Caputo:

1) do you do an initial room-temp rise?
2) How much salt?
3) How much IDY?
4) do you add anything else (olive oil, etc)?

Thanks.

Offline fabio

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Re: First Caputo doughs . . . 3 techniques (w/pics)
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2007, 04:10:44 PM »
Thanks for your replies. The feedback saves me a lot of worry about wether my dough will turn out or not.

I found the Caputo tonight to be as most have posted, less burning and browning than with American flours, and I baked at 850F for 3 minutes. It seems that you found the opposite to be true, fabio...?

I've read that too, and I'm sure your results and those of others on this board are more indicative of the burn resistent qualities of Caputo Pizzeria flour. My burning problem has more to do with the dough than the flour. My formulation was too dry (at least for my oven), resulting in either a burnt (not charred) bottom or a white 'cornicione'. That's the whole reason I am going to make the next batch much wetter.

Thanks again to all.

Offline toddster63

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Re: First Caputo doughs . . . 3 techniques (w/pics)
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2007, 07:24:21 PM »
Toddster,

For your 64% hydration Caputo:

1) do you do an initial room-temp rise?
2) How much salt?
3) How much IDY?
4) do you add anything else (olive oil, etc)?

Thanks.


No real initial rise other than a 20 minute rest after shaping into balls and before bagging and refrigerating. I used 2% salt, and .17% IDY. Nothing else other than flour, water, salt and yeast. I did do a 3 hour room-temp (72F) rise before baking.

More about the dough here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5584.0.html

Offline fabio

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Re: First Caputo doughs . . . 3 techniques (w/pics)
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2007, 01:33:07 AM »
Well, I just finised making 15 pizze with the 64% hydration dough that I said I would try above. It was the best dough I've ever handled. It felt like a 70% (AP flour) dough, but somehow it was not sticky and was a dream to handle. I cooked them at 400C - 425C for about 1.5min each. They were a real hit. They cooked perfectly top and bottom. The crust was so delicate and soft. I would recomend this formulation to anyone.

I actually wanted to do a 20-hour room-temp rise, but I got started a little late making the dough, and I had to start cooking a little earlier than I would have liked, so it actually ended up being about 17-18hr rise. And it's a good thing; even though I put only 1.75% starter (camaldoli), it rose very quickly, and it would probably have over-proofed if it had been much longer. I think the added hydration sped up the proof time exponentially. Next time I will try only 1% starter (yes, as a percentage of the flour), and see how quickly that rises. I think that should be at an ideal proofing stage after 20 hours.

I will also try to take pictures next time. Just to give you an idea, the pizze were coming out virtually identical in appearance to the pizza that is pictured on the Caputo Pizzeria flour bag. Puffy, bubbly cornicione with excellent coloration all around. I'm really quite proud, and thankful to all of you that have helped me, especially Marco, who never helped me directly, only through his many past posts and by helping others in the past who have now helped me. Thanks!

Offline Anis

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Re: First Caputo doughs . . . 3 techniques (w/pics)
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2007, 01:10:15 AM »
can you post pics please?

Offline toddster63

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Re: First Caputo doughs . . . 3 techniques (w/pics)
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2007, 02:22:17 PM »
Congrats, Fabio, sounds great. You should be proud--as probably most of us can attest to, making good pizza is not always cut and dry! Makes pride in your pizza elusive, but well deserved and savory, heh?!

I made a batch last week of Caputo at 68%, fermented for 4 days in the fridge, and didn't really see much noticeable difference between it and the 64% batch. It was a tad more sticky, but really not dramatically so, and it was honestly almost equally handledable. I did find, as others have posted around here, that this higher hydration dough got a little crisper, and even downright crackery in the thinnest interior sections (and this long fermented dough was VERY extensible, hence the pies were my thinnest ever), with a 800F bake for 3 minutes. While it was still tasty actually and a change of crust pace, it didn't have that nice soft Caputo flavor and texture in these thinnest crakery parts. I saw no increased oven spring with the 68% hydration batch--though this batch did produce some lovely and large bubbles in the outer crust during baking--I am guessing due to the long retardation.

I really have fallen for the Caputo too. The flavor is so outstanding, and it mixes and handles so differently from our domestic flours--I really look forward to working with it more and perfecting it's performance in my pizza making. Personally I haven't found it to be so hard to work with, even at higher hydrations, as many have suggested around here, and like you fabio, I think the 64% is really a sweet spot. Next up for me is a 64% batch with preferment--the Patsy's/Verasano. It'll be the first batch of Caputo with wild yeast around here...


Offline fabio

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Re: First Caputo doughs . . . 3 techniques (w/pics)
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2007, 01:47:23 AM »
Sorry Anis, no pics; maybe next time.

Toddster, thanks for the info. I'm a little perplexed: did you say you cooked the 64% Caputo dough at 800F for 3 minutes??? I cook mine at that temp for about half that time, with plenty of char spots and coloration. Keeping it in for 2 minutes produces a burnt pizza, and for three minutes, I would guess I'd probabyl just have ash. What kind of oven are you using? Electric? Grill? Wood-burning?


Offline toddster63

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Re: First Caputo doughs . . . 3 techniques (w/pics)
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2007, 11:48:42 AM »
Toddster, thanks for the info. I'm a little perplexed: did you say you cooked the 64% Caputo dough at 800F for 3 minutes??? I cook mine at that temp for about half that time, with plenty of char spots and coloration. Keeping it in for 2 minutes produces a burnt pizza, and for three minutes, I would guess I'd probabyl just have ash. What kind of oven are you using? Electric? Grill? Wood-burning?

Fabio, I cook in a modified Deni Pizza Bella unit--the 800F is the stone temperature actually. Apart from the stone, the interior of the unit is MUCH cooler than say a WFO, or even a home oven. The Deni unit is compact, fits on the countertop, and is good for smaller pies when the unit is modified and tweaked. However it is far from perfect.

Offline Anis

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Re: First Caputo doughs . . . 3 techniques (w/pics)
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2007, 03:41:33 PM »
fabio,
     
with the 15 pizzas you made, did you notice a significant cooling of the floor?  I know this is a bit off topic but I don't know where to post this question.  Also how long was your baking session?  I'm thinking of building a pompei oven.  That is what you are using, right?

I'm planning on building it in the next few months but i'm still not sure if using an island hearth is necessary.  Your experience in baking 15 pizzas in that oven might give me an idea regarding this.  What do you think? 

I use 65% hydration also, BTW.  But after shaping its probably a bit lower than that because of the bench flour used.  Before reading through this site I was using 74%.  It was good, really light crust, though.  But I also have to agree that 64 or 65% is the sweet spot. 

Anis

Offline Anis

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Re: First Caputo doughs . . . 3 techniques (w/pics)
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2007, 03:55:43 PM »
or was it fio with the pompei oven?  sorry if I'm mistaken.  ;D

Offline fabio

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Re: First Caputo doughs . . . 3 techniques (w/pics)
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2007, 04:10:23 PM »
Nope, mine is not a "true pizza oven" per se. It is more a hearth-style oven with the wood (fire) in a compartment underneath the stone. Here are some pics of it: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5470.0.html.

Offline Anis

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Re: First Caputo doughs . . . 3 techniques (w/pics)
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2007, 05:56:10 PM »
yes, now I remember.  I think that's a good oven.  Certainly takes away the problem of keeping your floor hot enough.  thanks. :)