Author Topic: cold ferment for grilled pizza and a few other ?'s  (Read 1592 times)

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Offline Boston BBQ-za

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cold ferment for grilled pizza and a few other ?'s
« on: September 26, 2007, 09:03:34 PM »
As I write this, I'm hopeful that my pizza making knowledge and skills will improve so much that I will laugh at this 'newbie' post months from now!  Anyways, I've made my first investment today (Reinhardt's American Pie) and I think I'm off to  a good start between the book, this website and an old KA blender.  So a few initial questions:
1. I've read about the positive effects of the longer fermentation times and am wondering if the same holds true with grilled pizza dough.  The recipe in American pie calls recommends an overnight ferment, however, the Al forno recipe calls for approx 3 hr rise at room temp. Would an overnight ferment help with the Al forno?  if so, would I reduce the ADY down from 2.5 tsp?  If so, how much?
2.  Am I correct in assuming that grilled pizza does not require high gluten flour?  
2.  It looks like a scale will be in order very soon and I've read many posts on this topic but don't have a clear winner to select. Am I correct in assuming that I should purchase a scale in 1G increments?  (it appears that the water and flour are the main things I would measure with the scale, other measurements (yeast, sugar, etc) will be volume based.  I've seen the Escali brand mentioned a lot and wonder if there are other recommendations before I place an order.  
3.  Like many, I seem to have have an issue finding High Gluten flour.  Besides going to a pizza place, what other options do people explore to pick this up? Mail order? local pizza joint?  I'm looking forward to trying the lehmann recipe

I'm sure there will be plenty of other questions, so thanks in advance.  
.. one final note, I have to put a plug out there for the barbecuebible website.  From my screen name, you can see I'm an avid bbq'er and it was through this site that I learned a tremendous amount and I imagine the same will hold true here as well.    


Offline Bryan S

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Re: cold ferment for grilled pizza and a few other ?'s
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2007, 09:22:45 PM »
Grill or oven I use the same dough. I prefer a good AP flour verses high gluten. I grill most of my pies. I use a 5 day min cold ferment with 7-11 days being my favorite. If you want to use a higher gluten flour look for Gold Medal Harvest King, It's in every store here, should be easy to find. Get a good scale, don't skimp, I have a Escali and love it. I just weigh out the flour and water, everything else gets a that's close enough measure with a measuring spoon. I'm a avid BBQ'er also.  My BBQ site of choice is TVWBB, I have a WSM and 3 other Weber grills these days but learned many, many years ago on a Brinkman smoker.  ;D
EDIT: Here's a link to some pics of a sausage pie I did last week on the gasser. http://www.villagephotos.com/viewpubimage.asp?id_=21164615
« Last Edit: September 26, 2007, 10:34:26 PM by Bryan S »
Making great pizza and learning new things everyday.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: cold ferment for grilled pizza and a few other ?'s
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2007, 10:54:35 PM »
Boston BBQ-za,

I will try to respond to your questions in the order you presented them.

1). You may have already seen the following thread, but it is one that was devoted to the Al Forno dough recipe: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5462.msg46126.html#msg46126. As noted in that thread, to convert that recipe to a cold ferment version is a complicated process, involving a series of mathematical calculations. These calculations are based on dough temperatures at different stages and the times spent at each temperature, starting with the temperature of the dough as it comes out of the mixer bowl and goes into the refrigerator and ending when the dough is removed from the refrigerator and allowed to warm up sufficiently to use. To give you an idea of the types of calculations you would need to perform, and their complexity, you may want to take a look at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5028.msg42572.html#msg42572. To spare you from having to go through that exercise, I made some assumptions (based on my situation in Texas) and did some back of the envelope calculations. I concluded that you might be able to get away with using about ĺ teaspoon of ADY. This would be for an overnight cold fermentation. Anything longer that that, you would decrease the amount of ADY. I would use cool water to make the dough except for a small amount of the water that I would warm up to around 105 degree F and use to rehydrate the ADY. I would then add the rehydrated ADY/water solution to the cool part of the formula water and proceed with the rest of the recipe. I would put the dough into the refrigerator right after it has been made, without any room temperature fermentation. You should allow about 1 Ĺ-2 hours at room temperature before using the dough. I think this approach should work but I canít guarantee it since my calculations are only as good as my assumptions, which are likely to be different in your case.

2). You are correct that high-gluten flour is not necessary to make a dough for grilling purposes.

3). There are many possibilities as far as scale selection is concerned. A few good threads to read on this subject are http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4005.msg33452.html#msg33452 (including the links embedded therein), http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1741.msg15526.html#msg15526, and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2283.msg20046/topicseen.html#msg20046. There are several members who have and appear to be very satisfied with the Escali scales and the My Weigh scales.

4). Depending on where you live, there are several possibilities for locating sources of high-gluten flour. There are several mail-order sources, and there are foodservice and bakery distributors that will sell to individuals on a cash and carry basis. Your location is relevant because of potential shipping charges in the event there isnít a source right in your back yard willing to sell to you.

Peter

Offline scott r

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Re: cold ferment for grilled pizza and a few other ?'s
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2007, 12:32:56 AM »
I live in boston and would be happy to help you find whatever you are looking for.  Just tell me what brands intrest you.  http://www.russos.com/   has escalon 6in1 canned tomatoes, la bella and la regina san marzano tomatoes, and the best basil/produce anywhere around boston.  For me that would be stop one.   For flour you could hit up any area grocery store for my favorite, good old King Arthur Bread flour.  If you must have high gluten flour you can buy it at a number of places, but only in huge 50lb bags. Try http://www.bellissimofoods.com/distributors/costas_provisions.html costas provisions will do cash and carry even though they are a big warehouse.  If they don't have what you are looking for http://www.cirelli.com/ cirelli foods in middleboro is another cash and carry joint that has many brands.  Both of these places also sell tomatoes, but they are the giant #10 cans unlike russo's.

Also, a friend of mine worked at al forno and tells me that the above mentioned recipe is not what they use. The 3 hour rise is correct, though.  Supposedly it is all purpose flour, yeast, salt, and water only.

Offline Boston BBQ-za

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Re: cold ferment for grilled pizza and a few other ?'s
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2007, 01:32:22 PM »
thanks all for the insightful feedback, very helpful.  A few comments.
Bryan, I'm intrigued by your 5-11 day cold ferment.  Before I visited this website, I always just let my dough rise at room temp with marginal results in the oven (although my dough for grilling comes out much better with a little different recipe).  Regardless, I'm eager to try the cold fermentation.  Any special dough recipe you use?  I may first try the Al forno clone and compare to the American pie recipe, but if you have a recipe that may blow the socks of these, it would be great to try. 
Peter:  Bryan mentioned the gold medal harvest (or maybe even a bread flour) which would have higher protein.  Am I a fool to try the lehmann recipe with this, or should I hold off until I get the high gluten flour you refer to?  Also, thanks for helping me narrow the scale search.  It looks like two good options are the Escali Primo for $29 or the my weigh 7001DX for $35.  Either seems like they will fit the bill well (unless someone points me to one vs the other)
Scott: Glad to hear you're local.  My manager turned me on to Russo's some time ago and I agree, excellent produce, and it looks like I will source my canned tomotoes from there.  If you're ever interested in doing a pizza clinic, give me a shout. I could repay it in a grill clinic!  I'm sure my wife would love it if I was on a fast learning curve with my pizza.  My uncle makes a damn good pizza and will be coming up from NYC over thanksgiving and wants to challenge me to a pizza cookoff, therefore, I got a lot of practice to do over the next month and a half. Grilled vs oven, or maybe both!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: cold ferment for grilled pizza and a few other ?'s
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2007, 02:35:37 PM »
Peter:  Bryan mentioned the gold medal harvest (or maybe even a bread flour) which would have higher protein.  Am I a fool to try the lehmann recipe with this, or should I hold off until I get the high gluten flour you refer to?


Boston BBQ-za,

I am sure that someone somewhere is using the Harvest King flour with the Lehmann dough formulation but the more common flour choices are likely to be bread flour and high-gluten flour because of their higher protein content. For example, the Harvest King flour contains between 11.3-12.3% protein. By contrast, the King Arthur bread flour contains 12.7% protein. The KASL, and also the General Mills All Trumps high-gluten flour, contains 14.2% protein. The original Lehmann recipe which was the basis for all of my experiments with that recipe calls for a strong flour with 13.4-14% protein. To the best of my knowledge, Brian is not trying to replicate the Lehmann dough formulation. In fact, he is on record as not being a fan of the Lehmann dough (for example, see Reply 17 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5431.msg46206.html#msg46206).

As between the Harvest King and the King Arthur bread flour, I would personally go with the King Arthur bread flour. If you ultimately end up with the KASL, All Trumps or any other high-gluten flour, you might want to give one of those flours a try also. To see if you like the KASL, you can order a few bags (3-lb.) directly from King Arthur in Vermont. The other high-gluten flours come only in 50-lb. bags. I have stuck with the KASL because it is nonbromated, although I believe scott r may be able to tell you where you can get the nonbromated version of the All Trumps, which is much harder to find than the bromated version used by most bakers and pizza operators. There is no one better than scott for locating sources of pizza ingredients in the Boston area. pizzoid (Al) is another Massachusetts member who seems to know where to find everything, although I believe he is outside of the general Boston area.

Peter



Offline Bryan S

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Re: cold ferment for grilled pizza and a few other ?'s
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2007, 04:17:18 PM »
Bryan, I'm intrigued by your 5-11 day cold ferment.  Before I visited this website, I always just let my dough rise at room temp with marginal results in the oven (although my dough for grilling comes out much better with a little different recipe).  Regardless, I'm eager to try the cold fermentation.  Any special dough recipe you use? 

Boston, Nothing special at all. I'm just very partial to the Ceresota Flour which you should be able to find very easily in your area or the Hecker's brand. Here's a link for you. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5000.0.html  :)
As far as the Harvest King Bread flour goes I use that when I want a softer crumb in my dough. I use it for pan pizza dough and Focaccia.  ;)
« Last Edit: September 27, 2007, 10:15:10 PM by Bryan S »
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Offline scott r

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Re: cold ferment for grilled pizza and a few other ?'s
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2007, 04:43:54 PM »

I have stuck with the KASL because it is nonbromated, although I believe scott r may be able to tell you where you can get the nonbromated version of the All Trumps, which is much harder to find than the bromated version used by most bakers and pizza operators. There is no one better than scott for locating sources of pizza ingredients in the Boston area. pizzoid (Al) is another Massachusetts member who seems to know where to find everything, although I believe he is outside of the general Boston area.

Peter


I have spent a lot of time with the non bromated all trumps lately.  The flour is no big deal, unfortunately the magic is in the bromate.  I would not bother with it.  I also agree with peter that between the harvest king and the King Arthur bread flour, the king arthur wins.  After much experimenting I have come to the conclusion that KA bread is the clear winner for me as far as non 00 flours go, and best of all it is available in just about every grocery store around here.  My other favorite is the Guisto bread or their high gluten, but they are not easy to get here on the east coast.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: cold ferment for grilled pizza and a few other ?'s
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2007, 05:27:31 PM »
My other favorite is the Guisto bread or their high gluten, but they are not easy to get here on the east coast.


scott,

It used to be that one could get many of the Giusto's flours at the worldpantry.com website. However, as noted by the new website, at http://www.worldpantry.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ExecMacro/worldpantry/store/home.d2w/report, worldpantry no longer carries the Giusto's flours, or any other flours that I can tell. I uncovered another possible source, at shopnatural.com, only to discover that all of their Giusto's flours (mainly in 50-;b. bags) are listed as being out of stock. I am coming to believe that the only places that one will be able to get Giusto's flours is at foodservice companies and wholesalers. Are you aware of any retail level sources of the flours? I recall that some Whole Food stores carry at least one Giusto's flour, but the availability may not be the same for all WF stores, and the flour may be all-purpose rather than, say, bread flour.

Peter