Author Topic: Tommy's Pizza (now Pizza L'oven) circa 1960's Exeter PA (NEPA) redo!  (Read 45544 times)

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Offline zalicious

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (now Pizza L'oven) circa 1960's Exeter PA (NEPA) redo!
« Reply #60 on: May 14, 2008, 11:35:28 AM »
Well, in my quest for a Boston type Sicilian pie, I tried this recipe due to scottr's comment about it being like Umberto's in Boston. I must say,THIS RECIPE ROCKS! ;D  I wish I could hug you, as it is the closest I've come ( although I'm working on a hazy, 20 odd year memory ). My husband said that I nailed it, 'though he's working on the same old memory :).
I made two slight changes: 1- I increased the IDY to .67 as I was only doing an overnight chill & that is the amount Pete-zza had recommended for Lehmanns overnight Sicilian, and 2- I used only 1T oil in the pan.
In following your AP with 63% hydration advice, it was perfect. I mixed & kneaded it by hand, & put it in the fridge overnight. Took it out 5 hrs or so before putting it in the pan, & then let it rest about 40 min before dressing it. I tried your cheese mix of 1:1:1 moz, prov & fontina. It was my first taste of the fontina...yummy. It was a warm mass of cheesy, melty, gooey, deliciousness :P.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 11:02:56 PM by zalicious »


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (now Pizza L'oven) circa 1960's Exeter PA (NEPA) redo!
« Reply #61 on: May 14, 2008, 12:33:33 PM »
Jeanette,

Nice job. You are becoming a real pro with the different pizza styles you have been trying. I have found that that is the best way to learn.

Peter

Offline LPcreation

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (now Pizza L'oven) circa 1960's Exeter PA (NEPA) redo!
« Reply #62 on: May 14, 2008, 02:05:39 PM »
That pizza looks awesome.  I'll be trying the sicilian again soon.   :)

What were cooking temp/times?

Offline zalicious

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (now Pizza L'oven) circa 1960's Exeter PA (NEPA) redo!
« Reply #63 on: May 14, 2008, 11:04:53 PM »
Thanks, Peter :D. Those words coming from you...you have made my day.

Offline zalicious

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (now Pizza L'oven) circa 1960's Exeter PA (NEPA) redo!
« Reply #64 on: May 14, 2008, 11:12:13 PM »
That pizza looks awesome.  I'll be trying the sicilian again soon.   :)

What were cooking temp/times?

 I cooked it in a 4...crap! I can't find my notes. Hold on, I'll be back.

Offline zalicious

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (now Pizza L'oven) circa 1960's Exeter PA (NEPA) redo!
« Reply #65 on: May 14, 2008, 11:21:22 PM »
Ok,  ;D I preheated the oven to 475*, & put the pan on a pizza stone that was on the lowest rack. I cooked it for about 5 min, then turned it & continued cooking it another 10 min, or so.

Offline sourdough girl

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (now Pizza L'oven) circa 1960's Exeter PA (NEPA) redo!
« Reply #66 on: May 15, 2008, 05:13:19 PM »
zalicious!
Thanks for the kind words!  I'm glad you liked the recipe... and the fontina!  It adds a little zip and a lot of creaminess!

LPcreation,
I preheat my oven, with two stones on the two lowest racks, for over an hour set at the max temp of 550o F.  I put the pan on the lower stone and bake for 5-6 minutes until the edges of the crust were starting to turn brown.  It looks like zalicious got great results with a lower temp and longer bake time, so it looks like either method will give you a great pie!

~sd
Never trust a skinny cook!

Offline TronCarter

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (now Pizza L'oven) circa 1960's Exeter PA (NEPA) redo!
« Reply #67 on: September 13, 2008, 08:46:32 PM »
I have made this recipe a few times in the past two weeks and it is quite tasty.  Since I am only cooking for myself, I made a half batch and it was enough for two 8" x 8" pizzas.  It worked out perfectly and tasted great, although since I am trying to be health conscious, I think I will try my next batch with less salt and see if it still tastes good.  Also I have been experimenting with different amounts of oil and I think I like the results of 2 teaspoons for the 8x8.  I have also decided that cheese on top of the toppings is the right way for this style.  It allows me to brown the cheese a bit and holds everything in place for eating.

Thanks for the post.

Tron

Offline sourdough girl

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (now Pizza L'oven) circa 1960's Exeter PA (NEPA) redo!
« Reply #68 on: September 13, 2008, 09:01:33 PM »
TronCarter,
Glad you had good results!  I am always interested in how people modify the recipe, so please continue to post your results!

And, if you can, some pics would be great to see, too!

Thanks for trying my recipe!

~sd
Never trust a skinny cook!

Offline TronCarter

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (now Pizza L'oven) circa 1960's Exeter PA (NEPA) redo!
« Reply #69 on: September 14, 2008, 06:42:42 PM »
I used my last dough ball tonight and made an 8x8.  I made the dough on Friday night and I usually prepare the dough and then put each ball in its own container with a little olive oil and then let them sit on the counter for 1-2 hours and then refrigerate.  I like to let the yeast get started before cooling off.  This time I forgot about them and left them out overnight.  I'm brave (and cheap), so I decided to chill them anyway.  I used the first one on Saturday and it was great.  After only one day it had a full flavor.  Today (Sunday) was no different, the flavor was great, so I think I will start leaving my dough out overnight.  So, I took the dough out and did a finger tip flattening with a little flour and put it in the oiled pan (2 teaspoons of "Spartan Pure Olive Oil").  I let the dough rise in the pan for about 4 hours and then topped with some pepperoni that I pre-cooked in the microwave to remove as much fat as possible*.  I also added some mushrooms, red bell pepper (from my garden), white onion, and hot banana pepper.  I then topped it with 2oz of mozzarella and 1oz of muenster, ground in the food processor and a sprinkle of Italian seasoning. 

I preheated the oven at 550 with my only pizza stone on the bottom rack.  After it was up to temp for about 10 minutes, I put the pizza (in the pan) on the stone for 7.5 minutes.  Since I don't have a top stone, I broiled it for about 2 minutes at the end (I got distracted and it was a little too long and "darkened" on edge of the crust, but it looks worse than it tasted).  Here are some pictures:



Offline sourdough girl

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (now Pizza L'oven) circa 1960's Exeter PA (NEPA) redo!
« Reply #70 on: September 14, 2008, 07:07:48 PM »
TronCarter,
Those pics look GREAT!!  Thanks for posting them... and I'm intrigued by the overnight at room temp, so I may try that myself as well.  I am quite certain that Tommy's dough was a same day, but I have already strayed from authenticity on that point in trying to replicate that pizza, so this idea is certainly worth a try!

I made this Tommy's clone at the beginning of this month when we made our yearly trip to Central Oregon.  The stove at Mom's cabin is VERY old (probably close to 50 years, possibly more) and this time, I had my IR gun with me!  So, I took the temp of the bottom of the oven... it was over 700o F!  I had the pizza on the bottom rack (think I used the upper rack last time) and the bottom was almost black when I took it out... but, you know, it STILL tasted good (NOT burned!) and we ate every last piece of both pizzas!

You mentioned in a prior post about using less salt... did you try that this time?  If so, how much salt did you use?

~sd
Never trust a skinny cook!

Offline TronCarter

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (now Pizza L'oven) circa 1960's Exeter PA (NEPA) redo!
« Reply #71 on: September 14, 2008, 08:05:19 PM »
Thank you.  No, this batch was made following the recipe, just cut everything in half.  I will probably get a chance to make it again next weekend and will try with lower salt.  I have never really been clear if salt actually does something in a bread or pizza dough other than add flavor, but I will experiment and find out.  Also, the dough was in plastic tubs with the lid sealed except for one corner so it didn't dry out.  When it was rising in the pan it had a real yeasty, doughy smell to it as well as when it was cooking, more than other pizzas I have made in the past of various styles.

Tron

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (now Pizza L'oven) circa 1960's Exeter PA (NEPA) redo!
« Reply #72 on: September 14, 2008, 08:17:45 PM »
I have never really been clear if salt actually does something in a bread or pizza dough other than add flavor, but I will experiment and find out.


Tron,

As you will see from this article, http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/salt.html, salt has several purposes beyond taste.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 12:11:59 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline TronCarter

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (now Pizza L'oven) circa 1960's Exeter PA (NEPA) redo!
« Reply #73 on: October 06, 2008, 08:37:18 PM »
Well, just to keep you updated, I have been reducing the salt in each batch I make and seeing what happens.   Per batch (which makes 2 - 8.5oz dough balls) I started with .21oz of salt (original recipe) and have tried .17, .14, and now .105.  I personally can't tell a difference between batches, they all turned out great.  I might be able to tell a difference if I had the two side by side, but with up to a week between pizzas, it is  difficult to remember and subtle differences.  I have not noticed much of a difference in taste, texture, or rise.  I am currently using the following method:

10.56 oz Bread Flour (GM because it is less $$ than KA)
.105 oz salt  (a.k.a. 1.48 grams)
1gm IDY (SAF Instant in the red brick)
6.56 oz water

To start I weigh out the water and IDY.  I microwave the water for 30 seconds to warm it up to somewhere in the 90-100 degree range (knowing it is going into the metal bowl of my Kitchen Aid stand mixer that will cool it off some.  I put the yeast and water in the bowl and let sit for a minute or two and stir to dissolve the yeast.  While this is happening I weigh the flour and salt.  After yeast has dissolved I add flour and salt to mixer and run on speed 1 for 5 minutes.  After 5 minutes I weigh out two dough balls at right around 8.5 oz each and put them into a plastic container that has been brushed with Spartan pure olive oil.  I put the lids on loosely and let sit on the counter overnight (I usually make the dough before going to bed).  In the morning I put the containers into the refrigerator and store until I need them (I use them quickly so I don't know the actual shelf life).   On pizza day, at lunch time I take the container out and press it out with my finger tips on a floured counter (when the dough is cold).  I press it out and put it in an oiled 8x8 pan (~1tbsp Spartan pure olive oil for this size pan).  Push it out into the corners and get it as close to the final shape as possible.  Then that is it, let it be, don't touch it, let it sit out (no cover) until dinner time.  At dinner time I preheat the oven (with stone on bottom rack) to 550 and let it stay there for at least 10 minutes after it reaches 550.  While it is heating I make the pizza (as lightly as possible so as not to flatten the risen dough out).  Sauce, then toppings, then cheese all the way to the edge of the crust.  Since the cheese it going to the edge of the dough and will be touching the side of the pan, it is a good idea to make sure you oil the sides of the pan well in the previous step.  It goes on the stone for 7-8 minutes and then under the broiler for 1-2 minutes to brown up the top just a bit.  Pop it out of the pan (a plastic pancake flipper helps) on to a cookie sheet and cut.  There is a nice crunch to the crust.  I let it cool for a few minutes and then it disappears quickly after that. 

If I had to pinpoint the one most important step that can't be skipped it would be the pan rise.  I let it go for 5 hours although 3 hours may work as well, it just doesn't fit my schedule.

I need to maybe rethink where I let it cool because the bottom can lose a little of the crunch if it sits on the cookie sheet for too long. 

I didn't think to take pictures tonight, but will try to remember with the other dough ball later this week, but they would pretty much look like my earlier pictures (just a little less burned).

If anyone is wondering, Spartan is a generic brand in Michigan (not sure where else).

Sorry if there are too many details, but I would rather read a post with too many details than not enough.  :-\

Tron

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (now Pizza L'oven) circa 1960's Exeter PA (NEPA) redo!
« Reply #74 on: October 06, 2008, 09:32:15 PM »
Tron,

At 1 gram of IDY, you are using about 1/3 teaspoon. Can you tell me the cumulative hours that the dough sits at room temperature and what that room temperature is?

Peter

Offline TronCarter

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (now Pizza L'oven) circa 1960's Exeter PA (NEPA) redo!
« Reply #75 on: October 07, 2008, 07:56:43 AM »
Peter,

The initial overnight rise is usually about 12 hours followed by refrigeration.  The pan rise adds another 5 hours.  The first few batches were all done at 70 degrees room temp, but lately it has been getting cooler in the house due to the changing weather and the last batch was at 66-67 for both the overnight and pan rise.  The pan rise might have been slightly less volume, but it is difficult to tell for sure and also difficult to tell if it was salt, room temp, or some other factor that would have been causing it.

Tron

Offline TronCarter

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (now Pizza L'oven) circa 1960's Exeter PA (NEPA) redo!
« Reply #76 on: October 08, 2008, 06:57:06 PM »
Here are the promised picture of tonight's endeavor:


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (now Pizza L'oven) circa 1960's Exeter PA (NEPA) redo!
« Reply #77 on: October 08, 2008, 07:30:29 PM »
Tron,

Great job. Your dough looks exactly like I expected it to after the long period of fermentation. I bet there were a lot of great crust flavors.

Peter

Offline TronCarter

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (now Pizza L'oven) circa 1960's Exeter PA (NEPA) redo!
« Reply #78 on: October 09, 2008, 08:34:23 AM »
Yes, it has quite a fermented flavor which I really like.  It also smells really good when cooking.  It was one of those 'accidental discoveries' the first time I left the dough out overnight.  I wasn't really sure about using the 'accident' batch, but was really wanting pizza so I gave it a try.  I thought that since the recipe doesn't add any sugar that the yeast would not have anything to eat after that long a period of activity and thus provide a pretty flat final product, but I was wrong.  It still rose in the pan (I only let it go for an hour or so) and made what was at the time the best pizza I had ever made.  Since then I have discovered the benefits of a longer pan rise and that is my current technique.

I think I will keep going with less and less salt and see what happens.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (now Pizza L'oven) circa 1960's Exeter PA (NEPA) redo!
« Reply #79 on: October 09, 2008, 09:38:49 AM »
Tron,

I recently started a thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.0.html in which I discussed many aspects of the preparation of a dough that is to be fermented at room temperature for a long period, typically almost a day. In my case, I was making standard, flat pizzas. That, in itself, poses problems in getting the pizza with a wet dough from the work bench into the oven. However, if you are using a pan, as in your case, there is no reason why you can't make a dough with a long room-temperature fermentation. There is a point, however, where the dough can overferment and lead to many problems associated with overfermented doughs. The key to success with long, room-temperature fermented doughs is using an amount of yeast commensurate with the room temperature.

In your case, you perhaps don't want to go too low on the salt since salt is needed to develop a strong gluten structure capable of holding the gases of fermentation (carbon dioxide). This and other aspects of the use of salt is discussed in this King Arthur piece: http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/salt.html.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 12:05:18 PM by Pete-zza »


 

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