First attempt at Lehmann's recipe...

[NOLA-Man]

Hi, wanted to share my first attempt using the below recipe I saw in one of Pete-zza's posts:
       High-gluten flour, 11.80 oz. (about 2 1/2 c.)
       Water, 7.70 oz. (about 1 c.) (about 65% hydration)
       IDY, 0.20 oz. (3/4 t.)
       Salt, 0.20 oz. (3/4 t.)
       Olive oil (light), 0.12 oz. (3/4 t.)
       Thickness factor (TF) = 0.10

I recognize the flour recommended is hi-gluten (KASL, 14.2%) which I didn't have. So, I called the only local joint in my area with a decent pie, and asked what they used. The told me it was All Trumps, which is a General Mills product, also 14.2% protein, so I asked the owner if I could pay him for some. He said come over, and he filled 2 gallon bags (about 10 lbs for $5 in the tip jar, and indicated I could come back periodically for refills (hope he meant that). So, I kneaded the dough only about 6 min in my Kitchenaid, using the paddle attachment. I then oiled, put in a bowl and covered in the ice box for about 22 hours. Then out on the counter covered for about 2 hours. At that point I thought more about the fact that the recipe was for a 16" pie, and that my stone was only about 14" X 16" and so just before shaping I split into 2 balls and then made 2 roughly 10" pies. Wish I would have thought about that before cold fermentation, but I'll know next time. I still found the dough to be not overly elastic with good extensibility, my shaping skills notwithstanding. I cooked one pie on a screen and the other on the stone, at 550, preheated a little over an hour. I thought the crust was nice and sort of leathery, good color, and the crumb airy and chewy. I'm guessing the extra work right before shaping didn't help, but what a difference compared to anything I've ever made before. I've read other threads that indicated over-kneading may result in a too dense, bready result, so I tried to under-knead if anything, and the dough seemed to have lots of gasses/bubbles trapped inside when I was shaping. Is that what I'm looking for? I was hoping someone could help me calculate the weights for a 14" pie using this same recipe. Not sure if the Lehmann calculator is how I do that of if there's another way to do it. Any help is appreciated. Also, any comments/input are always welcome. Also want to thank everyone, particularly Pete-zza for previous comments and help in getting a real novice from zero to a reasonable pie (although a long way to go) in a relatively short time, considering the amount of information that is available here to someone who doesn't even know the right questions to start asking. Will definitely continue experimenting, given my early success. I tried to attach a pic, but the file is too large, so you'll have to take my word unfortunately, although I was able to get a small picture of one of the pies as my avatar if that helps.

NOLA-Man

[Pete-zza]

Bart,

The Lehmann dough formulation you posted was the original Lehmann dough formulation that I posted in the first message at the Lehmann thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.0.html. That was long before I really knew what I was doing and when I was just starting to learn about baker’s percents and thickness factors and how to use them. I also didn’t have the benefit of the Lehmann dough calculating tool to help me with the ingredient quantities. You will also note that I made an error in the amount of IDY used in the original recipe, even though I got good results notwithstanding the error. Today, I would be more inclined to use the following Lehmann dough formulation, for which I used the Lehmann dough calculating tool to calculate the ingredients needed to make a 16” pizza:

Flour (100%): Water (63%): IDY (0.25%): Salt (1.75%): Oil (1%): Total (166%):

343.38 g  |  12.11 oz | 0.76 lbs 216.33 g  |  7.63 oz | 0.48 lbs 0.86 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.28 tsp | 0.09 tbsp 6.01 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.08 tsp | 0.36 tbsp 3.43 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.76 tsp | 0.25 tbsp 570.01 g | 20.11 oz | 1.26 lbs | TF = 0.1

As mentioned above, this formulation is intended for a 16” pizza. However, one can make two roughly 12” pizzas with the same amount of dough. As you noted, when you plan to make more than one pizza from a given amount of dough, it is usually a good idea to divide and shape the dough into nice round dough balls before refrigerating the dough.

Since you asked about how to alter the dough formulation you used to make a 14” pizza instead of a 16” pizza, I calculated the baker’s percents for the original Lehmann dough formulation and, using the Lehmann dough calculating tool and a thickness factor of 0.10, came up with the following for the 14" size:

Flour (100%): Water (65.2542%): IDY (1.69491%): Salt (1.69491%): Oil (1.01694%): Total (169.66096%):

257.23 g  |  9.07 oz | 0.57 lbs 167.85 g  |  5.92 oz | 0.37 lbs 4.36 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.45 tsp | 0.48 tbsp 4.36 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.78 tsp | 0.26 tbsp 2.62 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.58 tsp | 0.19 tbsp 436.41 g | 15.39 oz | 0.96 lbs | TF = 0.1

I will leave to you which dough formulation you choose to use the next time. However, if you want to attempt a 14” version of the first formulation posted above (for the 16” pizza), it is:

Flour (100%): Water (63%): IDY (0.25%): Salt (1.75%): Oil (1%): Total (166%):

262.9 g  |  9.27 oz | 0.58 lbs 165.63 g  |  5.84 oz | 0.37 lbs 0.66 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.22 tsp | 0.07 tbsp 4.6 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp 2.63 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.58 tsp | 0.19 tbsp 436.41 g | 15.39 oz | 0.96 lbs | TF = 0.1

As you can see, the Lehmann dough calculating tool makes it easy to change the ingredient percents and quantities. In your case, you may want to try both versions (for the 14” size) and see which version you like better. FYI, the above amount of dough for the 14" size (15.39 ounces) can be used to make two pizzas that are just a bit less than 10".

The All Trumps flour you used is a good substitute for the KASL from the standpoint of protein content, hydration, etc. Some members who have used the All Trumps flour have commented that the finished crusts based on that flour have not had as deep a color as the crusts made using the KASL. I was hoping to see your photos to see if you experienced the coloration difference.

BTW, you don’t have to limit yourself to the paddle attachment. If your KitchenAid mixer has a spiral hook, you may want to use that for the bulk of the kneading. My mixer has a much less effective C-hook and I use that in addition to the paddle attachment.

From your comments, it looks like you achieved a dough with a lot of bubbles. I suspect that that was the result of using a lot more IDY than originally intended. If you reduce the IDY to 0.25% (by weight of flour), I don’t think you will get the same degree of bubbling. Some members love the bubbles, so if bubbles are what you like, then you can use more IDY to help achieve that result.

I think you will find that your doughs and pizzas will get better with more experience. If you also learn how to use the Lehmann dough calculating tool, you won't go back to the old methods (using a hand calculator or spreadsheets). It will save you an enormous amount of time and effort. You can also use the Lehmann dough calculator to calculate ingredient quantities to make just about any dough that includes flour, water, yeast, salt, oil and sugar.

Peter

[NOLA-Man]

Hey Peter,
Thanks for you assistance with the calculations. I will have to try the Lehmann dough calculator. I tried a week or so ago but wasn't sure about all the parameters and what they should be. Yes, that original recipe had 1.5 tsp of IDY and I cut that in half, but probably still too much, although I do like the bubbles. I have that C hook for my mixer, and wasn't very happy with it, but maybe I can buy the spiral hook separately. I was also thinking about trying my bread machine for a brief knead cycle, but not sure yet. I'm not sure how to get the site to accept my pics, as they seem to be too large taken from my cell-phone, but the color was good, a nice bronze with some areas a little darker. I use the 2nd slot from the top for my rack, so maybe too close to the element. Anyway, I was really pleased with the pizza, which clearly has room for improvement, but was better than most of the local pizza places. We're in the burbs in Houston, and not much here, but more in the city for sure. Anyway, I'll make note of your updates and let you know the pies later this week come out, and will try to get pics using the All Trumps flour to post. Thanks for the input.

Bart

[pcampbell]

Peter, is this still the recipe you would recommend for a first timer?

I finally got some SAF Red and a scale.  The only thing I noticed is that I cannot measure less than 1 g on my scale.  So 1g in this calculation comes out to about .30% instead of .25% .  Maybe this is OK as my refrigerator tends to be rather cold?  Not sure if that is really a determining factor.

I will be using KA bread flour and sea salt.  I also have Diamond Crystal kosher salt but figured I'd give sea salt a try.  I haven't used the sea salt in any of my pizza making before due to measuring annoyances - now with the scale it is easy.

The only thing I'd say is different for me is that my home oven seems to go up to about 700F or higher.  I haven't cooked anything in it yet  but I put the oven thermometer on and cranked on BROIL... after not long the arrow on the oven thermometer was at 6 o'clock, well past 600.  It is an old 1950s Caloric oven.  Of course I don't necessarily need to use it in this capacity. 

What temperature would you recommend for the above pizza (16") and what would you change (hydration?) for higher temps?  Thanks a ton I am very excited to finally put some precision and repeatability (and hopefully better tastes!!!!) into my pizzas!!!

[Pete-zza]

Peter, is this still the recipe you would recommend for a first timer?

Patrick,

I would say that the basic Lehmann dough formulation with 0.25% IDY is a good place to start for a NY style. That formulation is actually fairly close to what the old NYC masters used to make their NY styles except that they did not use any oil and their hydration levels may have been a bit higher, even for all-purpose flour and bread flour, which were used before high-gluten flour became more widely available and popular for NY styles. They also did not use sea salt, just ordinary table salt. I think the simplicity of the Lehmann dough formulation and its relationship to the classic NY formulations is one of the reasons why it has become so popular.

I wouldn't worry about not being able to weigh the small amount of yeast on your scale. I have a special small digital scale that can be used to weigh small quantities of lightweight ingredients and I almost never use it. I have found that the volume quantities given by the Lehmann dough calculating tool for small amounts of ingredients like yeast (and salt and sugar) work just as well. I think you will find that ingredients like yeast change over time due to environmental and storage factors, making it difficult to say that you have precisely measured out the amount you want to use from an operational (biochemical) standpoint. So I wouldn't worry about it. As an aside, I recently ordered a set of those small measuring spoons (1/4 t., 1/8 t., 1/16 t., 1/32 t. and 1/64 t.), simply because they may make it easier for me to measure out ingredients a bit more accurately than using the standard set of measuring spoons I now have. It is for convenience, not necessarily for greater accuracy that I will use the new measuring spoons although I will gladly accept that accuracy if it materializes.

If you'd like, you can use the Diamond Crystal salt you have on hand instead of regular table salt or sea salt. You only have to select the Diamond Crystal salt from the choices offered by the Lehmann dough calculating tool. The percent of that salt to enter is the same as for the other salts, that is, 1.75%. I might add that when Evelyne Slomon gave us a basic classic NY style dough formulation, she used sea salt and specified 1.5%. I tried that and thought that more salt was needed.

My standard electric home oven only gets to about 500-550 degrees F, but if you plan to go to above 600 degrees F and to use the KA bread flour, you may want to use a hydration of around 65% if you can get it. In my case, unless I sift the KA bread flour and use the alternative dough making method using all of the three KitchenAid attachments (using the dreaded C-hook), it can be a bit difficult to get 65% hydration and have the dough handle well and not be overly wet or sticky. However, if you have a better machine, you may be able to get to 65% without incident. That hydration should be compatible with the deck oven temperatures that operators currently use and that were used by the old masters for the classic NY style.

Once you decide what you want in the way of the final dough formulation, just plug the percents into the Lehmann dough calculating tool. I would use the dough weight method rather than the thickness factor method, and use 20.11 ounces for that purpose for the 16" size. Many of the classic NY dough formulations (e.g., Totonno's, John's, and Patsy's) were thinner than that, so if you want to emulate those versions, you can start with a dough weight of 16 ounces (456 grams) for the 16" size. With experience, you will find what amount of dough works best for you based on your personal preferences. Our members routinely use the Lehmann dough calculating tool to make changes to the basic dough formulation.

Peter

[pcampbell]

Here was my first attempt.  I used the following for a 16" pizza.  Only difference from Peter's recommendation is that I went with 1g of IDY because I couldn't measure .86 grams (.25%)  (made the dough before I read his reply!)   Made with KA bread flour, sea salt, filtered water.  No oil in the recipe but a little in the retarding container to keep it from developing the 2nd skin.  I believe I am going to use kosher salt next time just because it is easier to measure (and cheaper!).

Flour (100%): Water (63%): IDY (.3%): Salt (1.75%): Total (165.05%):

345.36 g  |  12.18 oz | 0.76 lbs 217.57 g  |  7.67 oz | 0.48 lbs 1.04 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.34 tsp | 0.11 tbsp 6.04 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.08 tsp | 0.36 tbsp 570.01 g | 20.11 oz | 1.26 lbs | TF = 0.1

Autolysed roughly 75% of flour and all of water for 25 minutes, then mixed in remaining flour with salt with regular KA hook.  It was in the fridge for a solid 4 days at around 40-45F.    Out on the counter just long enough to warm up, about 30 minutes.  In the oven for 7 minutes @ 600 F slightly justified towards the bottom on a pizza screen.   I can get my oven hotter but I figured I'd stick with where the thermometer can actually read for right now.  I have, with another 10 minutes warm up had the needle pointing  due south.

It came out fairly well BUT I feel like the bottom was a bit more done than the top.  I am not sure if putting it 1 rack higher will help this. 

Also seemed like at 600 F maybe I should be looking at 64% hydration? 

Assuming KA bread flour, what are the best temperatures for 63%, 64%, 65% respectively?

Am I better off cooking it slower, lower hydration at a lower temperature or hotter?

THANKS!!!!

[Pete-zza]

Patrick,

I have an electric home oven so I am not likely to be of much help to you with your gas oven. However, in my oven I frequently move my pizzas from the bottom rack position to a higher rack position in order to balance the tops and bottoms of the pizzas in terms of crust color and also to control the way the cheeses melt and brown without breaking down and releasing too much fat. This method of moving the pizzas around within the oven is something that you might want to consider with your oven, especially since the high oven temperature is likely to cause the bottom of the pizza to bake fairly quickly at the lower oven rack position. A fast bake that comes from using higher oven temperatures will usually produce a fairly soft crust because of the retention of moisture in the dough. The crust will also usually be on the light side. A long, slow bake at a lower temperature will usually yield a crispier and drier crust because there is more time for the moisture in the dough to be baked out. The crust will also usually be darker because of the denaturing of the protein in the crust and the Maillard reactions, caramelization of sugars, etc. At some point you will perhaps determine which crust characteristics you like best and then adapt your pizza to the oven (bake temperature, time, and rack positions).

I tend to doubt that fine tuning the hydration values in relation to temperatures as you propose will make a significant difference in the outcomes, although you may see a lighter bottom crust if you were to go to around 65% hydration. That figure would be within the operational absorption rate of the KA bread flour, and with an autolyse you should get good hydration of the flour. My inclination would be to first get to understand the behavior of your oven better, especially since you just recently got it in good operating condition, and then consider possible changes to the dough formulation.

I notice that you allowed your dough to warm up for only 30 minutes before using. That might have been sufficient if your kitchen was very warm because of warm weather in your neck of the woods. However, a longer warm-up time should allow you to get a greater rise in the dough and the finished crust. A typical range of dough temperatures at this stage is around 55-65 degrees F although I have found that over 60 degrees F works well for me. I believe that one of our members who is a professional pizza operator recently mentioned 62 degrees F as the figure he uses in his business.

Peter

[pcampbell]

I made one pie on Wednesday using basically the same formula but it was not exactly a very scientific test because too many variables were changed:

a) Only in fridge 48 hours vs 96
b) 2 hours on counter vs. 30 minutes.  Dough temp around 70F when forming the pie.
c) Moved the oven rack UP one level
d) Kosher instead of sea salt (same amount by mass)

I found the bottom/top color was more even, and what seemed like more rise, definitely an improvement.

I've been given permission to make pizza again tonight so it should be fun!  This time the in fridge time will be identical to my first attempt.  As always, getting better with much more to learn!!!  Thanks a lot. 

[pcampbell]

I wonder if you could offer some insight for dough formula for something that will be ready in 24 hours vs 3+ days.  What might you change from the formula I have been using (which is the 22 oz 16" pie with .25% IDY, 63% water and 1.75% salt).

[Pete-zza]

Patrick,

The original Lehmann NY style dough recipe (see http://www.pmq.com/recipe/view_recipe.php?id=52) was intended to produce a dough that would be usable after 12 hours of cold fermentation, with an outer limit of about 72 hours. When I first experimented with that recipe, I used 24 hours of cold fermentation.

I notice that you didn't indicate in your last post whether you have been using oil (which I do), but that shouldn't affect your overall results if you are omitting the oil.

So, the dough recipe you have been using should be fine for a 24-hour cold fermentation. The finished crust won't be quite as good in my opinion as one that is based on a dough with a longer fermentation, but that is something you will have to decide for yourself.

Peter