Author Topic: Puffy Pizza  (Read 36969 times)

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Offline Randy

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Puffy Pizza
« on: September 23, 2004, 10:58:10 AM »
Here is the pizza we baked last night.  I have been experimenting with water temperature.  I have tried as low as 70F and this one is at 130F.  For my procedure, I think I will stick with 120-125F.  When I went to cold water, I lost my nice puffy edge.

Randy
« Last Edit: September 23, 2004, 02:32:33 PM by Randy »


Offline Giovanni

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Re:Puffy Pizza
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2004, 12:15:02 PM »
Randy,

The comments i made on my post a few days ago included a problem with getting a puffy edge. I have not experimented with water temps at all, i usually just go with whatever comes out of the tap when proofing my yeast and mixing with the dough. Based on your post you are saying 120-125F water temp works best. My question is where in the process are you using this warmer water temp. In the yeast proofing process, the dough mixture, or both?

I want to try whatever your doing on my next batch tomorrow. I'm going to make 2 recipes and i want to try the different water temps to see what happens.

Offline DKM

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Re:Puffy Pizza
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2004, 01:01:33 PM »
I typically proof in 115o to 1200 with good results.

DKM
« Last Edit: September 23, 2004, 01:01:45 PM by DKM »
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Online Pete-zza

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Re:Puffy Pizza
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2004, 01:11:14 PM »
Giovanni,

There are differences of opinion on this forum about what water temperature to use in making pizza dough, but I subscribe to the notion of adjusting water temperature to achieve a finished dough temperature (the temperature when the dough has been completely kneaded) of 80-85 degrees F, which is considered to be optimum for dough fermentation.   Since room temperatures vary from place to place and from one season to another, achieving the 80-85 degree F figure requires changing water temperature to compensate for those temperature changes.  Also, the type of machine that is used will also add several degrees to the dough temperature simply because of friction factors.  Water is selected as the factor to change since it is far easier to change water temperature than room temperature or flour temperature.  

There is a simple formula--the one basically used by professionals to produce consistent, reproducible results all year round--to tell you how to calculate the water temperature you need to achieve any desired finished dough temperature.   It is

      WT = 3 (desired FDT) - (RT + FT + MFT),

where WT is the water temperature needed, FDT is the desired finished dough temperature (in my example, 80-85 degrees F), RT is the room temperature, FT is the flour temperature (almost always the same as the room temperature), and MFT is the machine friction temperature.  The MFT will vary depending on the type of machine used and the volume of dough.  I have calculated the MFT for my stand mixer and it is about 3-5 degrees F.  For my food processor, it is around 30 degrees F. If you knead by hand, the only frictional heat is the heat from your hands, which is around 0 for all intents and purposes.  The above MFTs are what I use when I do my water temperature calculations.  So, for example, if the desired finished dough temperature is 80 degrees F, the room temperature is 75 degrees F, the flour temperature is 75 degrees F, and you are using a food processor to knead the dough, with an MFT of 30 degrees F, the desired water temperature is

          WT = (3 x 80) - (75 + 75 + 30),

or 60 degrees F.   With a stand mixer, it would be around 87 degrees F.  By hand, it would be around 90 degrees F.  These numbers will change from machine to machine and dough volumes, but I have found the formula to be quite reliable in achieving the desired finished dough temperature.  

If my math is correct, for Randy to use 40 degrees F as his water temperature, to get a desired finished dough temperature of 80 degrees F, his room temperature (and flour temperature, if the same) would have to be about 85 degrees F if he used a food processor like mine, about 98.5 degrees F if he used a stand mixer like mine, and around 100 degrees F if he kneaded by hand ;).  Obviously, a water temperature of 40 degrees F would not be a good choice and, indeed, would produce an inferior end product because of poor fermentation characteristics.

My advice is to play around with water temperatures and see what works best for you from the results you achieve.

Peter

 
« Last Edit: September 26, 2004, 02:45:55 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline DKM

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Re:Puffy Pizza
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2004, 01:35:04 PM »
Peter,

I think you been watching Alton Brown too much  ;)

DKM
I'm on too many of these boards

Online Pete-zza

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Re:Puffy Pizza
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2004, 01:56:33 PM »
DKM,

Actually, it was Tom Lehmann, although I also enjoy Alton Brown for pretty much the same reasons ;D ;D.

Peter

Offline Randy

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Re:Puffy Pizza
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2004, 01:58:21 PM »
Giovonni, In a recipe using 16 oz of flour as an example I will pour half the flour in the KA mixer then add i package of SAF Perfect rise yeast.  I do not proof the yeast I think this is  hold over from the old days.  To that I will add the warm water with the sugar incorporated.  The mixer will we set on speed 2 for two minutes.  Then the rest of the flour and fat is added and the kneading begins.  

Hope this helps
Randy
« Last Edit: September 23, 2004, 02:01:49 PM by Randy »

Online Pete-zza

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Re:Puffy Pizza
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2004, 02:17:02 PM »
Randy is right about the SAF Perfect Rise yeast.  I looked at a package of this yeast this afternoon after seeing Randy's post on the subject, and the package states on the front "The FAST RISING Active Dry Yeast!".  The instructions allow for proofing the yeast in warm water (95-105 degrees F), but an alternative method is to mix the SAF Perfect Rise yeast in with the flour and then add the remaining ingredients, with the liquid at 100-110 degrees F.  Everything we know about yeast seems to be getting blurrier by the day as yeast technology evolves.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 26, 2004, 02:55:11 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Giovanni

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Re:Puffy Pizza
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2004, 02:19:33 PM »
Yea, that did remind me a bit of an Good Eats episode :).
Since i am going to do 2 batches tomorrow i think i will try one batch with the method Randy mentioned (which is a bit different than mine). The other batch i will stick to my current method but use the forumulas to try and get an 80 degree dough.

I know everyone does it differently but do you guys think its a good idea to put the dough directly into the fridge after kneading it? I usually stick it right into an air tight container in the fridge and dont touch it for 24 hours.

Offline Randy

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Re:Puffy Pizza
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2004, 02:31:47 PM »
I put mine right in the cooler but with a loose fitting lid.  The loose fitting lid allows the dough cool down quicker I would think.
On DKM and Steve's thin crust recipe I think a tight fitting lid is essential.

Randy


Offline Giovanni

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Re:Puffy Pizza
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2004, 02:46:40 PM »
I will try a loose fitting lid this time. I did notice that the rise was really fast initially and then slowed down as it got colder. I wonder if putting it in my freezer for 30 min and then moving to the fridge would make any difference. Something to try in the future i guess, i dont want to do too many changes at once.

Online Pete-zza

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Re:Puffy Pizza
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2004, 02:51:25 PM »
Giovanni,

I'm glad I at least got you to think about temperature control.  I knew I would provoke a response on this subject, but I think it is healthy to elicit different points of view and promote debate (when I was in the corporate world, this was actively encouraged).  It's starting to look like an Iron Chef's contest ;D.  I am anxiously awaiting the results of your experiments.  

As for your question, for the small amount of dough you are talking about, I don't know that it matters all that much whether you put the dough directly into the refrigerator after final kneading.  Professionals tend to go to the refrigerator directly, for fear that the dough will rise too quickly and act like an insulator, be hard to cool down in the cooler, and possibly "blow" because of a too-fast rise while in the cooler.  When you are talking about making hundreds of dough balls for a commercial operation, it may matter, but not anywhere near as much for a dough ball or two.   I tend to go to the refrigerator directly in most cases, mostly out of habit but also because I believe that almost all doughs (with the possible exception of doughs based on 00 flours) benefit from a prolonged period of refrigeration, to get more byproducts of fermentation, which promote better flavors in the finished pizza.  I have recently started following Canadave's and Giotto's recommendations to use a metal container to hold the dough while in the refrigerator, to promote faster cooling.

You can also compensate for not letting the dough rise before refrigerating by letting the dough rise for whatever period you want after it comes out of the refrigerator.  Usually, a dough coming out of the refrigerator will be usable for several hours thereafter. I have concluded that dough is very forgiving, and as long as you aren't terribly abusive, it will reward you with good results.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 26, 2004, 03:10:54 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Giovanni

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Re:Puffy Pizza
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2004, 03:08:28 PM »
Interesting, i typically only wait 15-20 minutes for the dough to cool off a bit before forming and putting in the oven. Would you suggest i try letting the dough rise for an hour or 2 before shaping and cooking?

Online Pete-zza

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Re:Puffy Pizza
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2004, 04:29:02 PM »
Giovanni,

I assume that you meant to say that you let your dough "warm" up for about 15-20 minutes before forming and putting into the oven, not cool off.  

It's usually the temperature of the dough after it comes out of the refrigerator that governs when you should put it in the oven.  The cutoff temperature is above 50 degrees F, that is, you shouldn't bake below that temperature.   The reason is to avoid or minimize large bubbles or blistering of the dough during baking (and, consequently, minimize the need to dock the dough before baking or to use a popper during baking).  Since my dough usually goes into the refrigerator after kneading, I give it some time to come up to room temperature before working on it.  It isn't as cold then (it is at about 50 degrees F when it comes out of the main compartment of my refrigerator) and is a bit easier to handle.  If you didn't give your dough an opportunity to rise before refrigerating, I personally would recommend giving the dough some time to expand before shaping and baking.  As an example, in the recipe I follow for making a New York style dough, which is refrigerated right after kneading, the instructions are to bring it to room temperature for about 2-3 hours before shaping, etc.  If you let the dough rise some before refrigerating, then you may not need to let it rise as much after taking it out of the refrigerator, but that may depend on what kind of dough you are making and what characteristics of the crust you are looking for (e.g., softness, crispiness, etc.)  

Peter
« Last Edit: September 23, 2004, 06:01:02 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Giovanni

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Re:Puffy Pizza
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2004, 05:30:47 PM »
You're right, i meant to say 'warm up'. I will try letting the dough sit for 90 minutes or so this time. Previously the dough was cool to the touch when i put it in the oven. I will have results posted on sat for sure.

Offline Giovanni

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Re:Puffy Pizza
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2004, 10:31:30 PM »
My experiments came out really good. Below are a few photo’s from tonight’s dinner. It seems the extra warm water (120 degrees), quicker initial cool down of the finished dough, and longer rise outside the fridge after the fermentation period have improved my crust. I split the ingredients of my recipe for a 16 inch pizza and made 2 dough batches. Each dough ball made an 8 inch pie. For the first batch I used the beer crust recipe but this time tripled the beer amount. The other was just a basic recipe similar to what’s on the front of this website. With the above changes in my methods both pizza’s turned out really good. I got a nice golden color and plenty of puff in the outer edge. The texture was almost perfect. I actually thought the beer crust tasted better, it was a bit more tender.

Regular Recipe:

(http://status.newtechwebservices.com/pics/small-reg.jpg)

Beer Recipe:

(http://status.newtechwebservices.com/pics/small-beer.jpg)

(http://status.newtechwebservices.com/pics/small-slice.jpg)

Offline Randy

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Re:Puffy Pizza
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2004, 10:55:45 AM »
Now you got it going!
In the recipe below I made several changes to the Steve's recipe on his NY page.  It should give added flavor and be a bit more tender.  I like using honey version.
Randy
3˝ cups (16 ounces) high-gluten flour
9 1/2  ounces warm water
1 tablespoon classico olive oil
2 tablespoons sugar(or 1 tablespoon sugar and 1 tablespoon honey)
1 package instant yeast
1 1/2  teaspoon salt

Online Pete-zza

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Re:Puffy Pizza
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2004, 06:17:57 PM »
Giovanni,

Nice job :).  I'm glad to see that making a few simple changes to your procedures produced the results you were looking for.  

Since you were looking for puffiness and there has been some discussion about water temperature, I would like to make some related observations that might be helpful.  One is that water temperature is but one of the many contributors to getting a puffy dough.   The amount of yeast and the amount of sugar you use will also be factors.  Combining high water temperatures, large amounts of yeast, and large amounts of sugar will collectively put you out at one end of the spectrum in terms of achieving a puffy dough and crust--and quickly, to boot.  As you move back in the direction of the other end of the spectrum (lower temperatures, little yeast and little added sugar), puffiness is still likely to be achieved but at the expense of time.  I have made pizza dough using high-gluten flour (e.g., a pound) with as little as 1/8 teaspoon instant dry yeast and no added sugar, and have been able to achieve a puffy crust.  However, it takes about 6-8 hours at room temperature to get sufficient development of the dough to produce a puffy state (and even longer in the winter).   If I wanted to cut that time and get to a puffier dough (and crust) faster, my first choice would be to increase the yeast, followed by sugar and then temperature, since it is metabolization of the various forms of sugar (added and natural) by the yeast that is primarily responsible for the production of carbon dioxide that produces dough expansion.  

I also have a batch of dough in the refrigerator using less than 1/8 teaspoon yeast (IDY) that is similar to a dough that I made the other day which used considerably more yeast, 1 1/2 t. (IDY).  Neither used added sugar and both were controlled as to water temperature to achieve a finished dough temperature of 80-85 degrees F (which they both satisfied).  After about an hour or two in the refrigerator, the dough made with the higher amount of yeast (1 1/2 t.) rose to about 1 1/2 times in volume.  The dough with the small amount of yeast (1/8 t. IDY) has not risen at all in the 2 hours since going into the refrigerator earlier this afternoon.  These comparisons would seem to suggest that the fastest way to get a dough to rise and achieve a puffy state is to increase the amount of yeast.

Another simple way of achieving puffiness that is not directly related to the considerations discussed above is to just make a lot of dough.  I have been experimenting lately with dough recipes that call for 20-24 ounces of dough for a single 16-inch NY style pizza.  If you keep the center of the shaped dough round as thin as possible or even a little bit thicker, you will end up with a large rim whether you like it or not.  And if the recipe is anywhere near normal, and especially one that calls for a lot of yeast and/or sugar, the rim should be puffy as a consequence.

I notice that your Correll beer dough recipe calls for some sugar, and that the NY style dough at the homepage does not.  Were these the recipes you followed for the two pizzas?

Peter
« Last Edit: October 27, 2004, 08:33:32 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Giovanni

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Re:Puffy Pizza
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2004, 10:09:49 AM »
Peter,

The recipe is similar in the ingredients only. The actual amounts were taken from the correll recipe. What i did was use the same amounts of water, flour, yeast, salt, and oil and just excluded the sugar, cornmeal and beer. I didn’t use the cornmeal in either recipe this time because i did not like the texture in the finished crust. As you can see the crusts came out almost identical regardless of the sugar content. I would say there was maybe 10% more cell spacing with the beer crust. I blind tested my wife with a slice from both pizzas and she overwhelming like the beer crust. She said it was the best i have ever made and that means a lot since she is not shy about speaking her mind when she doesn't like one of my experiments. This weekend I am going to go through the same process again where I make 2 small batches, this time with more changes. I am going to further modify the beer crust by using 100% beer and see what happens. I will also extend my before cooking rise period to 3 hours. After that I’m thinking about trying to reduce the yeast content like you mention.

One more thing to mention… on all my previous doughs I was getting a considerable rise in the fridge (2x volume), by quick cooling the dough for 20 min in the freezer I was able to reduce that initial rise to about 1.5 x volume. Considering the amount of yeast used I think this was good.

My goal is to achieve puffiness while keeping the finished dough weight as low as possible. For me, the bigger the cell spacing is the better.


« Last Edit: September 27, 2004, 10:12:08 AM by Giovanni »

Online Pete-zza

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Re:Puffy Pizza
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2004, 11:13:15 AM »
Giovanni,

Yesterday I made a New York style pizza dough (16-inch) that used a fair amount of yeast (by my standards) and no added sugar.  (At some point I may be reporting on the results).  But what was most significant about what I did was that I used the maximum level of hydration called for by the recipe--65%.  Usually I am at around 60%.  The dough at the 65% hydration level handled like a charm--even though it was a bit on the damp side going into and coming out of the refrigerator--but produced the biggest bubbles and the greatest degree of airiness that I have ever produced in the rim of a pizza.   In a recent post to mama mia, I had mentioned ciabatta bread as a good example of a bread product that has high degrees of hydration and, as a consequence, a lot of large and irregular sized holes.  That is what my crust looked like, especially in the area of the rim, which was very large.  In a future experiment, I may try to use an even higher hydration level, although I will have to exercise some caution not to produce a dough that is so wet as to stick to the screen or peel.  

You might want to take a look at your hydration level, Giovanni, and see if there is any room for elevating it in a future pizza dough making effort where you are trying to get an open and airy crumb.  

BTW, I adjusted water temperature to get a finished dough temperature of 80-84 degrees F, mainly because I was trying to replicate a recipe intended for use primarily by professionals and I was trying to be as faithful to the recipe as possible.  But there are some aspects that can't be easily replicated in the home without the kind of equipment professionals use.  For example, from what I have read, the temperature of coolers used by professionals for retardation purposes is something around 38-40 degrees F, whereas my main refrigerator compartment under normal loading conditions (normal amount of food stored) is at around 52 degrees F (and not much different in the crisper compartment).  So it won't cool the dough as fast as a cooler and there is likely to be greater dough expansion while in the refrigerator than if I had it in a cooler.  Coming out of the refrigerator, the dough will also be warmer than if a cooler were used and, hence, may not need all of the 2-3 hours at room temperature that the recipe calls for before shaping, etc.   This is something to keep in mind when using recipes intended primarily for professional use.

Your idea of putting the dough in the freezer for a brief period is an interesting one, and appears to overcome some of the temperature problems mentioned above.  Of course, you have to be very careful as not to allow the dough to freeze since that would not be good for the dough.  Maybe someone can devise a box or container of some sort that can sit in the refrigerator with the dough in it and have a controlled temperature similar to that achieved by professional cooler equipment (maybe something using an ice slurry).

Peter


 

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