Author Topic: Puffy Pizza  (Read 36002 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Giovanni

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 72
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Terre Haute, IN
Re:Puffy Pizza
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2004, 12:58:32 PM »
Good idea about the hydration level, i will adjust mine to see what happens. I had never thought of that before. I used the freezer to get an immediate chill, anymore than 20 min and it would probably start to cause problems (at least in my freezer). So many things to try, so little time!


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21206
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re:Puffy Pizza
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2004, 05:09:52 PM »
Giovanni,

The photo below depicts a slice of a NY style pizza that I made recently following Tom Lehmann's NY style dough recipe, with about 65 percent hydration.   I picked this photo specifically to depict the open and airy character of the dough and crust.

Peter

Offline Giovanni

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 72
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Terre Haute, IN
Re:Puffy Pizza
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2004, 05:25:17 PM »
That's the best picture i have seen of a NY slice on this forum. Care to post the recipe you mention? I would like to compare against mine. Is it just the hydration level that differs?

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21206
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re:Puffy Pizza
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2004, 07:38:59 PM »
Giovanni,

If you go to the New York dough, etc., thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/yabbse/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=389;start=120, you will get all the bloody details plus a couple of photos ;D.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21206
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re:Puffy Pizza
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2004, 08:53:05 PM »
In an earlier post in this thread, I indicated to Giovanni that I had some dough in process using no added sugar and very little yeast (instant dry yeast).  The recipe I followed was Tom Lehmann's New York style dough recipe but modified to include a minuscule amount of IDY, about 1/16 teaspoon.  I wanted to test the lower limit of yeast in Tom L.'s recipe to see if I could produce an edible pizza using such a small amount of yeast and whether the pizza would have a crust exhibiting any appreciable degree of puffiness.  I also wanted to test the thesis that yeast and, secondarily, sugar, are the primary drivers of the degree of dough expansion.  

The recipe I ended up with included a half pound of high-gluten flour (about 3 5/8 c., KA Sir Lancelot), 0.32 lbs. water (about 3/4 c., with 64% hydration), about 1/16 t. IDY, 3/4 t. salt and 1/2 t. olive oil (light)--and no added sugar.  The processing of the dough was identical to that explained in a post earlier today under the thread http://www.pizzamaking.com/yabbse/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=389;start=120, except that the dough required only 5-6 minutes of final kneading before putting it into the refrigerator.  Its weight was 13.20 ounces, which I calculated would allow me to make a roughly 14-inch pizza, the largest size pizza my peel and pizza stone can accommodate.

The dough stayed in the refrigerator for exactly 24 hours, following which I brought it out to room temperature for 2 hours before working it into a dough round.  There had been hardly any expansion of the dough the whole time it was in the refrigerator, and it didn't expand a great deal more in the two-hour period before shaping.  In shaping the dough, I found it to be extremely extensible and with little remaining elasticity, making it difficult to toss with any degree of confidence.  While part of this condition may have been attributable to the high hydration percent (64%), I believe that it was also because of an improper balance between the amounts of yeast and sugar (natural) which, I have observed in the past, can lead to an overly extensible, inelastic and somewhat slack dough.  Quite often, the result is a light colored crust because of sugar depletion, that is, there isn't enough sugar left in the dough to caramelize and promote browning beyond that provided by the Maillard reactions (between protein and reducing sugars).  

The photo below (and in the following post) confirms my suspicions.  The crust was not puffy but it exhibited the classical NY style characteristics of chewiness and leatheriness.  The reader will also note that the pizza crust lacks a deep brown color (a sign of sugar depletion).  The pizza tasted perfectly fine (it was dressed identically to the earlier pizza), but did not rise to the level of the other pizza with its considerably greater amount of yeast (1 1/2 t. IDY).  Since the temperatures of both pizza doughs were controlled to be just about the same throughout the entire process, and since neither dough included any added sugar, I think it is reasonably safe to say that the differentiating factor was the amount of yeast.  What I think I proved is that you can make a pizza using very little yeast.  It just won't be the best one, at least for a NY style.  

Peter

« Last Edit: September 27, 2004, 08:54:34 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21206
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re:Puffy Pizza
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2004, 08:56:15 PM »
And for a slice.

Peter

Offline Giovanni

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 72
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Terre Haute, IN
Re:Puffy Pizza
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2004, 12:45:41 PM »
In your other post you listed the recipe as:
      High-gluten flour, 12.30 oz. (about 2 3/4 c.)
      Water, 7.20 oz. (about 7/8 c.)
      IDY, 0.20 oz. (1 1/2 t.)
      Salt, 0.20 oz. (1 t.)
      Olive oil (light), 0.12 oz. (3/4 t.)

By my calculations (7.2/12.3) that equal about 59% hydration, not 65%. Is that correct?

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21206
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re:Puffy Pizza
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2004, 02:21:40 PM »
Giovanni,

You are correct.  I read the ingredients off of the wrong set of notes (the notes I prepared for a lower hydration version of the Lehmann dough, which I didn't think was as good at the 65% hydration dough).  I will correct the ingredient list in the original post (at http://www.pizzamaking.com/yabbse/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=389;start=120).  Thanks for catching the error.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 28, 2004, 03:34:39 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Frank

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2005, 11:23:46 AM »
Hi, I'm new to this site.  I was looking for how to make my pizza crust most puffy.  Walah! ... I found this.  I'm doing pretty good.  I've made thousands of pizzas to feed my teenagers and friends.  This is standard Saturday evening fare.  I can't imagine how much more broke I would be if I ordered out!  The kids all say mine's the best anyway.  Sometimes they are right.
I HAVE  been getting a nice fat edge on my crust.   I   don't use a recipe, I use pretty much sugar to feed the yeast, less salt (which retards the yeast), and have left the rolling pin to the side more often.  I seen the end of a cooks show on TV where he talked of avoiding the rolling pin to get nice fat puffy edges, and I find that true.  I press it out a bit with my finger tips, then convert to holding it all in the air, rotating and allowing stretching away from the edges.  It's working well. 
Things I try here I want to try include "high gluten " flour (don't know where to find that), and beer.
Thanks!
Frank in Milwaukee

Offline JerryMac

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 279
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2008, 10:18:46 AM »
Pete,

I love this quote from you on this thread'

"My advice is to play around with water temperatures"  :-D :-D :-D :-D

Hey, even I like Alton Brown  :-D :-D :-D :-D

Jerry


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21206
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2008, 11:15:17 AM »
Jerry,

I couldn't find the quote in this thread so I did a search and found it in one of the links, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,567.msg5212.html#msg5212 (Reply 3). The calculations I described may get one fairly close to the desired finished dough temperature but many people, including professionals, just learn from experience what water temperature should be used over the course of the year as room temperatures change. A few operators use tables that fix the machine friction factor and use room temperature and flour temperature as the variables. If they make the same quantity of dough each time, as pizza operators generally do, the tables tell them what water temperature to use for a given pair of room and flour temperatures. So, adjusting water temperature has a specific technical purpose--getting the correct finished dough temperature. It's not an artsy feely thing :-D.

Peter

Offline SELES

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 84
  • Location: Ohio
    • I design stuff.
Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2009, 11:14:48 PM »
Randy
Whats your recipe for the pie in post one? It looks really good. I've been having some serious flat pizza problems.

Offline scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3061
  • Age: 43
  • Location: boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2009, 01:38:05 AM »
The crust was not puffy but it exhibited the classical NY style characteristics of chewiness and leatheriness. The pizza tasted perfectly fine (it was dressed identically to the earlier pizza), but did not rise to the level of the other pizza with its considerably greater amount of yeast (1 1/2 t. IDY).  Since the temperatures of both pizza doughs were controlled to be just about the same throughout the entire process, and since neither dough included any added sugar, I think it is reasonably safe to say that the differentiating factor was the amount of yeast. 

Peter



I am curious about these findings, as I have found that even the tiniest amounts of yeast (I have gone as low as .02 %) can give me a massive amount of puffiness.   I have not noticed that more yeast = more puff, even though it seems like that would be the case.   Here is a picture of a dough I made a few weeks ago with .04% yeast that was baked in a 525 degree oven.  It wasn't even made with that high of a water content......60% with KA bread flour.   

Are you sure that the dough was fermented properly?
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 01:47:09 AM by scott r »

Offline scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3061
  • Age: 43
  • Location: boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2009, 01:42:59 AM »
oops, just noticed your post is really old.    Do you still agree with it?
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 01:46:23 AM by scott r »

Offline ThunderStik

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 331
Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2009, 10:22:43 AM »
I am curious about these findings, as I have found that even the tiniest amounts of yeast (I have gone as low as .02 %) can give me a massive amount of puffiness.   I have not noticed that more yeast = more puff, even though it seems like that would be the case.   Here is a picture of a dough I made a few weeks ago with .04% yeast that was baked in a 525 degree oven.  It wasn't even made with that high of a water content......60% with KA bread flour.   

Are you sure that the dough was fermented properly?

Scott r,

In my experience your correct. IMO its not yeast quantity, its yeast activity.
I KNOW MORE ABOUT PIZZA THAN ANYBODY!!!!!!!

(in my house)

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21206
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2009, 10:59:14 AM »
scott,

It's been so long since September 27, 2004 that I don't really remember all of the details of the experiment I conducted using the very small amount of yeast. However, I do remember the experiment I conducted with the much larger amount of yeast. It was the one I described on the same day in the very first post of the Lehmann thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5303.html#msg5303. I remember that post so vividly because I mistakenly used much more yeast (many multiples) than I should have (based on the Lehmann dough formulation) and ended up with an extremely puffy crust. Once I corrected the error in subsequent iterations of the Lehmann formulation, the pizza crusts became less puffy. Having performed countless dough experiments since that time, I think it is safe to say that I have learned a lot more about yeast behavior and yeast quantities and their effect of the finished pizzas. For example, one of the early experiments I conducted using a small amount of yeast in a cold fermentation environment was the one described at Reply 280 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17956.html#msg17956. As noted there, I got good oven spring despite the small amount of yeast used (0.17%). Like you, I have also made many long, room-temperature fermented doughs in which minuscule amounts of yeast are used, in some cases, 1/64-1/128 teaspoon IDY (at around 0.012%), again with good oven spring (e.g., see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62332.html#msg62332). When I was experimenting with the Papa John's clone doughs, I wondered whether it was possible to use very small amounts of yeast in the presence of very large amounts of sugar that could negatively affect yeast performance because of osmotic pressure. However, at Reply 35 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg60197.html#msg60197, I demonstrated that it was possible to use only 0.0125% IDY (a bit less than 1/64 t.) in the presence of 4.3% sugar (344 times the IDY) and still achiever decent oven spring. Similar results were described at Reply 30 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59762.html#msg59762, in which 0.025% IDY (1/32 t.) was used in the presence of 4% sugar (160 times the weight of IDY).

Where I think that yeast quantity becomes an issue is where small amounts of yeast are used in a cold fermentation environment, particularly where all of the temperatures are kept on the very cold side (from water temperature to finished dough temperature to storage temperature), and especially where the yeast (e.g., IDY) is added late in the dough kneading process, or where ADY is added dry (nonrehydrated) to the flour, or where the dough ball size is very small and the dough balls cool down very quickly. The doughs in all these cases will still be usable and yield crusts with good volume, as I demonstrated with my experimentation on these points, but it will usually take a lot longer fermentation time to produce the best results. I think it is also important to keep in mind that the moisture content of dough is perhaps more important than yeast quantity to oven spring, as November and Jeff Varasano convinced me some time ago.

Peter

Offline scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3061
  • Age: 43
  • Location: boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2009, 01:16:50 AM »
cool, this all makes sense.   The pic I posted was of a cold fermented dough with sugar. 

Offline bicster

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 116
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Memphis, TN
Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2009, 09:04:09 AM »
cool, this all makes sense.   The pic I posted was of a cold fermented dough with sugar. 

was it hand kneaded?  if so, can you describe your process? 

i have been giving serious consideration to purchasing you santos mixer, but i am really into hand kneading now, and i dont think i make big enough batches to utilize it.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21206
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2009, 10:28:48 AM »
What scott's photo nicely demonstrates is that you don't have to use a lot of yeast to get a puffy crust and crumb. I recently started playing around with a clone of Brian Spangler's (Apizza Scholls) dough based on what I have read from various sources on the internet. The dough I made recently (my first attempt at the clone), weighing about 23 ounces (for an 18" pizza), used a poolish with 0.03% IDY (based on the poolish flour) and a slightly larger amount of IDY as part of the final mix. The total usage of IDY was 0.025% of the formula flour. The IDY for the poolish came to two thirds of a 1/64 teaspoon measuring spoon. The IDY for the final mix came to 1 1/3 of the 1/64 t. measuring spoon. A 1/64 measuring spoon is the mini measuring spoon labeled "drop" in the photo at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5583.msg47264.html#msg47264. There were large bubbles throughout the dough, which was made by hand and prefermented/fermented entirely at room temperature for a total of 24 hours, and the finished crust also had large bubbles even though my oven (a basic grade electric oven) is not the best oven to use for Brian's dough. I concluded that I perhaps should have used even less yeast in the final mix, in part because the weather here in the Texas area has been over 100 degrees recently (it was 104 degrees yesterday) and my kitchen has been correspondingly warmer than usual.

The photo below shows part of the rim and crumb.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 28, 2009, 10:58:59 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21206
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2009, 10:57:25 AM »
It is sometimes hard to really tell how little 1/64 teaspoon is without a frame of reference. Perhaps this photo helps.

Peter


 

pizzapan