Author Topic: Puffy Pizza  (Read 40899 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re:Puffy Pizza
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2004, 08:56:15 PM »
And for a slice.

Peter


Offline Giovanni

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Re:Puffy Pizza
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2004, 12:45:41 PM »
In your other post you listed the recipe as:
      High-gluten flour, 12.30 oz. (about 2 3/4 c.)
      Water, 7.20 oz. (about 7/8 c.)
      IDY, 0.20 oz. (1 1/2 t.)
      Salt, 0.20 oz. (1 t.)
      Olive oil (light), 0.12 oz. (3/4 t.)

By my calculations (7.2/12.3) that equal about 59% hydration, not 65%. Is that correct?

Online Pete-zza

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Re:Puffy Pizza
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2004, 02:21:40 PM »
Giovanni,

You are correct.  I read the ingredients off of the wrong set of notes (the notes I prepared for a lower hydration version of the Lehmann dough, which I didn't think was as good at the 65% hydration dough).  I will correct the ingredient list in the original post (at http://www.pizzamaking.com/yabbse/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=389;start=120).  Thanks for catching the error.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 28, 2004, 03:34:39 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Frank

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Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2005, 11:23:46 AM »
Hi, I'm new to this site.  I was looking for how to make my pizza crust most puffy.  Walah! ... I found this.  I'm doing pretty good.  I've made thousands of pizzas to feed my teenagers and friends.  This is standard Saturday evening fare.  I can't imagine how much more broke I would be if I ordered out!  The kids all say mine's the best anyway.  Sometimes they are right.
I HAVE  been getting a nice fat edge on my crust.   I   don't use a recipe, I use pretty much sugar to feed the yeast, less salt (which retards the yeast), and have left the rolling pin to the side more often.  I seen the end of a cooks show on TV where he talked of avoiding the rolling pin to get nice fat puffy edges, and I find that true.  I press it out a bit with my finger tips, then convert to holding it all in the air, rotating and allowing stretching away from the edges.  It's working well. 
Things I try here I want to try include "high gluten " flour (don't know where to find that), and beer.
Thanks!
Frank in Milwaukee

Offline JerryMac

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Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2008, 10:18:46 AM »
Pete,

I love this quote from you on this thread'

"My advice is to play around with water temperatures"  :-D :-D :-D :-D

Hey, even I like Alton Brown  :-D :-D :-D :-D

Jerry

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Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2008, 11:15:17 AM »
Jerry,

I couldn't find the quote in this thread so I did a search and found it in one of the links, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,567.msg5212.html#msg5212 (Reply 3). The calculations I described may get one fairly close to the desired finished dough temperature but many people, including professionals, just learn from experience what water temperature should be used over the course of the year as room temperatures change. A few operators use tables that fix the machine friction factor and use room temperature and flour temperature as the variables. If they make the same quantity of dough each time, as pizza operators generally do, the tables tell them what water temperature to use for a given pair of room and flour temperatures. So, adjusting water temperature has a specific technical purpose--getting the correct finished dough temperature. It's not an artsy feely thing :-D.

Peter

Offline SELES

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Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2009, 11:14:48 PM »
Randy
Whats your recipe for the pie in post one? It looks really good. I've been having some serious flat pizza problems.

Offline scott r

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Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2009, 01:38:05 AM »
The crust was not puffy but it exhibited the classical NY style characteristics of chewiness and leatheriness. The pizza tasted perfectly fine (it was dressed identically to the earlier pizza), but did not rise to the level of the other pizza with its considerably greater amount of yeast (1 1/2 t. IDY).  Since the temperatures of both pizza doughs were controlled to be just about the same throughout the entire process, and since neither dough included any added sugar, I think it is reasonably safe to say that the differentiating factor was the amount of yeast. 

Peter



I am curious about these findings, as I have found that even the tiniest amounts of yeast (I have gone as low as .02 %) can give me a massive amount of puffiness.   I have not noticed that more yeast = more puff, even though it seems like that would be the case.   Here is a picture of a dough I made a few weeks ago with .04% yeast that was baked in a 525 degree oven.  It wasn't even made with that high of a water content......60% with KA bread flour.   

Are you sure that the dough was fermented properly?
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 01:47:09 AM by scott r »

Offline scott r

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Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2009, 01:42:59 AM »
oops, just noticed your post is really old.    Do you still agree with it?
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 01:46:23 AM by scott r »


Offline ThunderStik

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Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2009, 10:22:43 AM »
I am curious about these findings, as I have found that even the tiniest amounts of yeast (I have gone as low as .02 %) can give me a massive amount of puffiness.   I have not noticed that more yeast = more puff, even though it seems like that would be the case.   Here is a picture of a dough I made a few weeks ago with .04% yeast that was baked in a 525 degree oven.  It wasn't even made with that high of a water content......60% with KA bread flour.   

Are you sure that the dough was fermented properly?

Scott r,

In my experience your correct. IMO its not yeast quantity, its yeast activity.
I KNOW MORE ABOUT PIZZA THAN ANYBODY!!!!!!!

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2009, 10:59:14 AM »
scott,

It's been so long since September 27, 2004 that I don't really remember all of the details of the experiment I conducted using the very small amount of yeast. However, I do remember the experiment I conducted with the much larger amount of yeast. It was the one I described on the same day in the very first post of the Lehmann thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5303.html#msg5303. I remember that post so vividly because I mistakenly used much more yeast (many multiples) than I should have (based on the Lehmann dough formulation) and ended up with an extremely puffy crust. Once I corrected the error in subsequent iterations of the Lehmann formulation, the pizza crusts became less puffy. Having performed countless dough experiments since that time, I think it is safe to say that I have learned a lot more about yeast behavior and yeast quantities and their effect of the finished pizzas. For example, one of the early experiments I conducted using a small amount of yeast in a cold fermentation environment was the one described at Reply 280 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17956.html#msg17956. As noted there, I got good oven spring despite the small amount of yeast used (0.17%). Like you, I have also made many long, room-temperature fermented doughs in which minuscule amounts of yeast are used, in some cases, 1/64-1/128 teaspoon IDY (at around 0.012%), again with good oven spring (e.g., see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62332.html#msg62332). When I was experimenting with the Papa John's clone doughs, I wondered whether it was possible to use very small amounts of yeast in the presence of very large amounts of sugar that could negatively affect yeast performance because of osmotic pressure. However, at Reply 35 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg60197.html#msg60197, I demonstrated that it was possible to use only 0.0125% IDY (a bit less than 1/64 t.) in the presence of 4.3% sugar (344 times the IDY) and still achiever decent oven spring. Similar results were described at Reply 30 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59762.html#msg59762, in which 0.025% IDY (1/32 t.) was used in the presence of 4% sugar (160 times the weight of IDY).

Where I think that yeast quantity becomes an issue is where small amounts of yeast are used in a cold fermentation environment, particularly where all of the temperatures are kept on the very cold side (from water temperature to finished dough temperature to storage temperature), and especially where the yeast (e.g., IDY) is added late in the dough kneading process, or where ADY is added dry (nonrehydrated) to the flour, or where the dough ball size is very small and the dough balls cool down very quickly. The doughs in all these cases will still be usable and yield crusts with good volume, as I demonstrated with my experimentation on these points, but it will usually take a lot longer fermentation time to produce the best results. I think it is also important to keep in mind that the moisture content of dough is perhaps more important than yeast quantity to oven spring, as November and Jeff Varasano convinced me some time ago.

Peter

Offline scott r

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Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2009, 01:16:50 AM »
cool, this all makes sense.   The pic I posted was of a cold fermented dough with sugar. 

Offline bicster

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Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2009, 09:04:09 AM »
cool, this all makes sense.   The pic I posted was of a cold fermented dough with sugar. 

was it hand kneaded?  if so, can you describe your process? 

i have been giving serious consideration to purchasing you santos mixer, but i am really into hand kneading now, and i dont think i make big enough batches to utilize it.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2009, 10:28:48 AM »
What scott's photo nicely demonstrates is that you don't have to use a lot of yeast to get a puffy crust and crumb. I recently started playing around with a clone of Brian Spangler's (Apizza Scholls) dough based on what I have read from various sources on the internet. The dough I made recently (my first attempt at the clone), weighing about 23 ounces (for an 18" pizza), used a poolish with 0.03% IDY (based on the poolish flour) and a slightly larger amount of IDY as part of the final mix. The total usage of IDY was 0.025% of the formula flour. The IDY for the poolish came to two thirds of a 1/64 teaspoon measuring spoon. The IDY for the final mix came to 1 1/3 of the 1/64 t. measuring spoon. A 1/64 measuring spoon is the mini measuring spoon labeled "drop" in the photo at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5583.msg47264.html#msg47264. There were large bubbles throughout the dough, which was made by hand and prefermented/fermented entirely at room temperature for a total of 24 hours, and the finished crust also had large bubbles even though my oven (a basic grade electric oven) is not the best oven to use for Brian's dough. I concluded that I perhaps should have used even less yeast in the final mix, in part because the weather here in the Texas area has been over 100 degrees recently (it was 104 degrees yesterday) and my kitchen has been correspondingly warmer than usual.

The photo below shows part of the rim and crumb.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 28, 2009, 10:58:59 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2009, 10:57:25 AM »
It is sometimes hard to really tell how little 1/64 teaspoon is without a frame of reference. Perhaps this photo helps.

Peter

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Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2009, 02:37:06 PM »
This all great information as I work my pizza's slowly but surely into the realm of "puffiness". 

I've had a couple questions on my mind as I made my pies this weekend.
How much does oven temperature factor into oven spring?

How do you form your dough before you top it and slide it into the oven? And does that help in getting a thicker rim while maintaining a thinner center(under the cheese)?

thanks for the help.


Hank

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Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2009, 03:22:23 PM »
Hank,

I am not sure if you were addressing your questions to me or to scott r, but oven temperature is only one factor that relates to oven spring. Obviously, if the oven temperature is too low for the type of pizza being baked, the oven spring may be too little or sub-par and the finished crust can be quite mediocre, or even worse. But the dough formulation, especially the quality of the dough and its hydration and moisture retention, which is an important contributor to oven spring, can also be a factor, as will the method of baking. For example, a dough baked directly on a hot pizza stone will usually have a greater oven spring than an identical dough baked on a pan or pizza screen.

In my case, because my pizza stones can only handle a maximum pizza size of 14", and because I was making an 18" pizza, I used an 18" pizza screen in conjunction with two pizza stones on separate racks. I had wanted to preheat the stones for better than an hour to achieve higher stone temperatures but because my kitchen was already quite warm, I decided to limit the stone preheat to one hour. The hydration of the dough I made was 74%. It was very extensible but I was able to stretch it out to size and get it onto the screen. To a certain extent, because of the extensibility of the dough, the rim portion of the skin turned out to be naturally larger than usual. After dressing the pizza, it was baked directly on the lower stone, which was at a temperature of around 550 degrees F, until the bottom of the crust was properly browned. I then moved the pizza onto the upper stone for additional top crust browning. Had I been able to bake the pizza directly on a stone surface that could handle an 18" pizza, I believe the oven spring would have been even better. As it was, even using the screen, the oven spring was quite good. I give credit to the very gassy dough at the time of baking.

Peter


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Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2009, 04:54:25 PM »
Pete-Zza,

When you have time, would you mind posting the recipe for the Brian Spangler clone, or, if already posted, direct me accordingly?  Percentages are fine.

Thanks in advance

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Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2009, 05:20:51 PM »
Peter-

My questions were up for grabs. I like to get as much input and then filter.

I made two pies this weekend based on your scaled down version of Lehmann's recipe posted here:

pizzamaking[dot]com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5303.html#msg5303

(can't legally post links yet)

The first pie (baked yesterday) sat on the counter  under a greased bowl after it was mixed and baked later that afternoon. The second pie (baked today) was put into the fridge for a 24hr cold ferment followed by a 2hr warm up then into the oven it went.

The first pie came out with larger and more varied sized air pockets in the crumb with a slightly larger rim than before. The second pie had a rather uniform crumb and relatively flat rim. Sorry no photos.

When I was preparing my dough balls I basically just spread them out by hand then I tossed 'em in the air until I got my desired size. I then dressed them and into the oven they went.

My question about oven temperature arises from the fact that according to my after market oven thermometer the oven doesn't get much higher than 475º  on a good day (oven/stone preheated for an hour at 500º—at least thats what the oven says) and from what I gather, people are cooking their pies at no less than 500º.

In high school I spent a few months at Domino's as an "insider" slapping dough and sticking pizzas in the oven. If I remember correctly there was a dough forming technique before it was stretched (we didn't toss pizzas at dominos) that would "encourage" rim formation. I tried to press a circle that was about an inch less in diameter in the stretched skin but I'm not convinced it made much a difference.

in the pictures following your Lehmann post (linked above) there seems to be a relatively dramatic difference between the thickness of your rim and the middle.

Thanks for the help.

Hank
« Last Edit: June 28, 2009, 05:24:54 PM by Hank Trefethen »

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Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2009, 05:26:33 PM »
bicster,

Although I took some photos, I hadn't originally planned to write up the Spangler clone dough formulation and related procedures because there are still some gaps in the process that I believe may need to be filled. However, since you have requested what I have done to date, I will write it up at the thread I started some time ago to discuss other long (20-24 hours) room temperature fermented doughs, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.0.html. Maybe the write-up will draw out more information from members who have been to Apizza Scholls and witnessed their dough preparation and management. Also, maybe someone can try out the dough formulation using the correct oven and oven temperatures. I was just trying to come up with a workable formulation that reflected what I read about the Spangler dough in various writings on the forum and elsewhere on the Internet.

Peter

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Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2009, 05:34:32 PM »
Hank,

The full link is http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5303.html#msg5303. Were the two doughs as identical as you could make them but for the mode of fermentation (room temperature vs. cold), and can you tell me how much yeast you used?

Peter

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Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #46 on: June 28, 2009, 06:59:40 PM »
Peter-

I don't get results in tenths of ounces from my scale, just eighths. I loosely converted your recipe (from the link in your last post) to grams and came up with the following:

334g  High Gluten Flour(1/4 c os which was actually KA 00)
218g  Water
5g     IDY
5g     salt
3g     olive oil

My water was the appropriate temp relative to room temp. Both doughs were basically identical.

Thanks for posting the full link, I guess soon I won't have to sneak urls ;). When I entered the link I wasn't able to post it, based on the fact that I was too new.  Any idea when this restriction lifts?

Thanks Peter

Hank

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Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #47 on: June 28, 2009, 07:50:51 PM »
Hank,

Once you get to five posts, you will be able to post links. The five-post rule was established to discourage spammers from spamming the forum and its members. It has been a useful tool for the Moderators who police these kinds of matters.

By way of background since you are a new member, the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation is a commercial one that uses small amounts of yeast and relies on cold fermentation of the dough. The version that you used, with 5 grams of IDY for 334 grams of flour, is similar to the version that I originally posted but was in error as to the amount of yeast, as I noted in the ingredients list and also in the edit note at the end of the post. You perhaps were unaware of what you did with the room temperature version, but you actually converted the basic Lehmann cold-ferment dough to an "emergency" or short term room-temperature dough, which is a dough that is intended to be made and used within a few hours. As such, with the amount of IDY you used, you would get a very fast rise with a lot of gas (carbon dioxide) production. There would be very little to restrain the dough expansion, and the large amount of gas would typically manifest itself in the form of a puffier crust and crumb. By contrast, the other dough that you made and cold fermented would cool down once placed into the refrigerator. That slows down the activity of the yeast, so you would get much less gas production and, hence, less dough expansion, while the dough is in the refrigerator. As a result, it would not be unusual to see a less puffy finished crust. To get a considerably puffier crust, I think that you would have to let the cold fermented dough warm up at room temperature for several hours longer than usual after removing it from the refrigerator. I don't believe that the method of handling the doughs and forming the rims explains the differences in the degree of puffiness of the rims of the two doughs you made. I think it is the two different modes of fermentation.

The above said, there are still advantages to using the cold fermentation method over the short term room-temperature version. If the cold fermentation period is long enough, you should get a finished crust that has better color, flavor, aroma and texture. It is hard to get these characteristics with a short term room-temperature version. That is not an indictment of the room-temperature version. They can be convenient from a time standpoint. There are some people who actually prefer the short term room-temperature version over the cold fermented version.

Peter

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Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #48 on: June 28, 2009, 09:46:31 PM »
Peter

Thanks for the info. I'm not a big fan of spammers either.

When I made the dough I knew the yeast was high but went for it anyway since I was trying to make a pie that looked like yours in the picture. I agree the the rim formation didn't play big part in the differences in crumb texture, just curious if you do anything special when stretching your dough.

Quote
I left the dough in the refrigerator for exactly 24 hours, following which I brought it out to room temperature to let it warm up (it was about 52 degrees F at that point and still a little bit damp to the touch but not in need of any flour addition).   

Exactly 2 hours later, I shaped the dough into a roughly 16-inch pizza round.

So 2 hours after you pulled it out of the fridge you formed it or 2 hours after it reached room temperature?

It seems to me that if I'm following the same basic or at least similar methods that I should be getting at least similar results(which I'm not getting). All else equal, would a higher temperature help me get more similar results? I think my pies stay in the oven between fifteen and twenty minutes which seems long comparatively.

thanks for the help.


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Re: Puffy Pizza
« Reply #49 on: June 28, 2009, 10:33:44 PM »
Hank,

I made the pizza described in the opening post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5303.html#msg5303 almost five years ago, so my memory of the details of that pizza has faded with the passage of time. However, I don't do anything special when I shape and stretch my Lehmann NY style dough skins. The shaping and stretching steps I follow are the same ones that I describe for the benefit of newbies in Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563.

The dough that I used to make the pizza in the abovereferenced post was used (shaped and stretched) two hours after removing it from the refrigerator. I used two hours warm-up time on that occasion, but it can be longer or shorter depending on the room temperature, which can vary over the course of a year. At this time of year where I am in Texas and with a very warm kitchen, a typical warm-up time can be as little as an hour.

I am not sure why you have not been getting similar results. However, a bake time of 15-20 minutes is far higher than I have ever used to make a Lehmann NY style pizza. I rarely have to use a bake time of more than seven minutes. You might want to read the abovereferenced newbie thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563) to see if you detect something in general that you may be doing incorrectly. That thread covers just about everything I can think of that is involved in making a basic Lehmann NY style pizza. Maybe you have an oven problem.

Peter