Puffy Pizza

[SELES]

This all great information as I work my pizza's slowly but surely into the realm of "puffiness". 

I've had a couple questions on my mind as I made my pies this weekend.
How much does oven temperature factor into oven spring?

How do you form your dough before you top it and slide it into the oven? And does that help in getting a thicker rim while maintaining a thinner center(under the cheese)?

thanks for the help.


Hank

[Pete-zza]

Hank,

I am not sure if you were addressing your questions to me or to scott r, but oven temperature is only one factor that relates to oven spring. Obviously, if the oven temperature is too low for the type of pizza being baked, the oven spring may be too little or sub-par and the finished crust can be quite mediocre, or even worse. But the dough formulation, especially the quality of the dough and its hydration and moisture retention, which is an important contributor to oven spring, can also be a factor, as will the method of baking. For example, a dough baked directly on a hot pizza stone will usually have a greater oven spring than an identical dough baked on a pan or pizza screen.

In my case, because my pizza stones can only handle a maximum pizza size of 14", and because I was making an 18" pizza, I used an 18" pizza screen in conjunction with two pizza stones on separate racks. I had wanted to preheat the stones for better than an hour to achieve higher stone temperatures but because my kitchen was already quite warm, I decided to limit the stone preheat to one hour. The hydration of the dough I made was 74%. It was very extensible but I was able to stretch it out to size and get it onto the screen. To a certain extent, because of the extensibility of the dough, the rim portion of the skin turned out to be naturally larger than usual. After dressing the pizza, it was baked directly on the lower stone, which was at a temperature of around 550 degrees F, until the bottom of the crust was properly browned. I then moved the pizza onto the upper stone for additional top crust browning. Had I been able to bake the pizza directly on a stone surface that could handle an 18" pizza, I believe the oven spring would have been even better. As it was, even using the screen, the oven spring was quite good. I give credit to the very gassy dough at the time of baking.

Peter

[bicster]

Pete-Zza,

When you have time, would you mind posting the recipe for the Brian Spangler clone, or, if already posted, direct me accordingly?  Percentages are fine.

Thanks in advance

[SELES]

Peter-

My questions were up for grabs. I like to get as much input and then filter.

I made two pies this weekend based on your scaled down version of Lehmann's recipe posted here:

pizzamaking[dot]com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5303.html#msg5303

(can't legally post links yet)

The first pie (baked yesterday) sat on the counter  under a greased bowl after it was mixed and baked later that afternoon. The second pie (baked today) was put into the fridge for a 24hr cold ferment followed by a 2hr warm up then into the oven it went.

The first pie came out with larger and more varied sized air pockets in the crumb with a slightly larger rim than before. The second pie had a rather uniform crumb and relatively flat rim. Sorry no photos.

When I was preparing my dough balls I basically just spread them out by hand then I tossed 'em in the air until I got my desired size. I then dressed them and into the oven they went.

My question about oven temperature arises from the fact that according to my after market oven thermometer the oven doesn't get much higher than 475º  on a good day (oven/stone preheated for an hour at 500º—at least thats what the oven says) and from what I gather, people are cooking their pies at no less than 500º.

In high school I spent a few months at Domino's as an "insider" slapping dough and sticking pizzas in the oven. If I remember correctly there was a dough forming technique before it was stretched (we didn't toss pizzas at dominos) that would "encourage" rim formation. I tried to press a circle that was about an inch less in diameter in the stretched skin but I'm not convinced it made much a difference.

in the pictures following your Lehmann post (linked above) there seems to be a relatively dramatic difference between the thickness of your rim and the middle.

Thanks for the help.

Hank

[Pete-zza]

bicster,

Although I took some photos, I hadn't originally planned to write up the Spangler clone dough formulation and related procedures because there are still some gaps in the process that I believe may need to be filled. However, since you have requested what I have done to date, I will write it up at the thread I started some time ago to discuss other long (20-24 hours) room temperature fermented doughs, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.0.html. Maybe the write-up will draw out more information from members who have been to Apizza Scholls and witnessed their dough preparation and management. Also, maybe someone can try out the dough formulation using the correct oven and oven temperatures. I was just trying to come up with a workable formulation that reflected what I read about the Spangler dough in various writings on the forum and elsewhere on the Internet.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Hank,

The full link is http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5303.html#msg5303. Were the two doughs as identical as you could make them but for the mode of fermentation (room temperature vs. cold), and can you tell me how much yeast you used?

Peter

[SELES]

Peter-

I don't get results in tenths of ounces from my scale, just eighths. I loosely converted your recipe (from the link in your last post) to grams and came up with the following:

334g  High Gluten Flour(1/4 c os which was actually KA 00)
218g  Water
5g     IDY
5g     salt
3g     olive oil

My water was the appropriate temp relative to room temp. Both doughs were basically identical.

Thanks for posting the full link, I guess soon I won't have to sneak urls . When I entered the link I wasn't able to post it, based on the fact that I was too new.  Any idea when this restriction lifts?

Thanks Peter

Hank

[Pete-zza]

Hank,

Once you get to five posts, you will be able to post links. The five-post rule was established to discourage spammers from spamming the forum and its members. It has been a useful tool for the Moderators who police these kinds of matters.

By way of background since you are a new member, the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation is a commercial one that uses small amounts of yeast and relies on cold fermentation of the dough. The version that you used, with 5 grams of IDY for 334 grams of flour, is similar to the version that I originally posted but was in error as to the amount of yeast, as I noted in the ingredients list and also in the edit note at the end of the post. You perhaps were unaware of what you did with the room temperature version, but you actually converted the basic Lehmann cold-ferment dough to an "emergency" or short term room-temperature dough, which is a dough that is intended to be made and used within a few hours. As such, with the amount of IDY you used, you would get a very fast rise with a lot of gas (carbon dioxide) production. There would be very little to restrain the dough expansion, and the large amount of gas would typically manifest itself in the form of a puffier crust and crumb. By contrast, the other dough that you made and cold fermented would cool down once placed into the refrigerator. That slows down the activity of the yeast, so you would get much less gas production and, hence, less dough expansion, while the dough is in the refrigerator. As a result, it would not be unusual to see a less puffy finished crust. To get a considerably puffier crust, I think that you would have to let the cold fermented dough warm up at room temperature for several hours longer than usual after removing it from the refrigerator. I don't believe that the method of handling the doughs and forming the rims explains the differences in the degree of puffiness of the rims of the two doughs you made. I think it is the two different modes of fermentation.

The above said, there are still advantages to using the cold fermentation method over the short term room-temperature version. If the cold fermentation period is long enough, you should get a finished crust that has better color, flavor, aroma and texture. It is hard to get these characteristics with a short term room-temperature version. That is not an indictment of the room-temperature version. They can be convenient from a time standpoint. There are some people who actually prefer the short term room-temperature version over the cold fermented version.

Peter

[SELES]

Peter

Thanks for the info. I'm not a big fan of spammers either.

When I made the dough I knew the yeast was high but went for it anyway since I was trying to make a pie that looked like yours in the picture. I agree the the rim formation didn't play big part in the differences in crumb texture, just curious if you do anything special when stretching your dough.

I left the dough in the refrigerator for exactly 24 hours, following which I brought it out to room temperature to let it warm up (it was about 52 degrees F at that point and still a little bit damp to the touch but not in need of any flour addition).   

Exactly 2 hours later, I shaped the dough into a roughly 16-inch pizza round.

So 2 hours after you pulled it out of the fridge you formed it or 2 hours after it reached room temperature?

It seems to me that if I'm following the same basic or at least similar methods that I should be getting at least similar results(which I'm not getting). All else equal, would a higher temperature help me get more similar results? I think my pies stay in the oven between fifteen and twenty minutes which seems long comparatively.

thanks for the help.

[Pete-zza]

Hank,

I made the pizza described in the opening post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5303.html#msg5303 almost five years ago, so my memory of the details of that pizza has faded with the passage of time. However, I don't do anything special when I shape and stretch my Lehmann NY style dough skins. The shaping and stretching steps I follow are the same ones that I describe for the benefit of newbies in Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563.

The dough that I used to make the pizza in the abovereferenced post was used (shaped and stretched) two hours after removing it from the refrigerator. I used two hours warm-up time on that occasion, but it can be longer or shorter depending on the room temperature, which can vary over the course of a year. At this time of year where I am in Texas and with a very warm kitchen, a typical warm-up time can be as little as an hour.

I am not sure why you have not been getting similar results. However, a bake time of 15-20 minutes is far higher than I have ever used to make a Lehmann NY style pizza. I rarely have to use a bake time of more than seven minutes. You might want to read the abovereferenced newbie thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563) to see if you detect something in general that you may be doing incorrectly. That thread covers just about everything I can think of that is involved in making a basic Lehmann NY style pizza. Maybe you have an oven problem.

Peter

[SELES]

I've been suspecting an oven problem for sometime now. I guess it's time for the LBE. It will be a good excuse at least.

On the video you posted here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563 the guy Tony starts his dough off in the way I was trying to explain earlier.

Thanks for all the help Peter.

I'll do a little more homework on my oven and then I'll be back for more.

[SELES]

Peter-
I re-calibrated my oven without much luck, but a couple weeks back I was able to cook some in Big Green Egg and got the results I've been wanting. Thanks for the pointers. I guess I just need a hotter oven now.

Hank