Author Topic: My Giordano's Style Pizza's (with pics)  (Read 133214 times)

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Offline November

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Re: My Giordano's Style Pizza's (with pics)
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2008, 11:58:08 PM »
Random Trivia Of The Day

Speaking of nutmeg; if you feed nutmeg to a hen, its eggs are supposed to taste better.

Besides the nutmeg reference, the reason this comes to mind is because of how eggs made it into the dough formula.  I'm not sure if the purpose would be for texture or flavor.  There are a lot of better (and safer) things to put in pizza dough for texture.


Offline BTB

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Re: My Giordano's Style Pizza's (with pics)
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2008, 08:53:04 AM »
While it is still fresh in my mind, a couple of comments.  I sensed no vanilla at all in the crust.  Nutmeg I don't know about, as I'm not even certain what nutmeg would taste like.  Also the crust was very dry.  Some of the parts on the rim or crust were already flaking off.  As many know, I am not a big Giordano's fan.  But the pizzas I had last week were very good.  With the incredible expansion and success of their business, they must have been doing something right.  And I remember going to their first and then only restaurant near 63rd and California in Chicago and the time they won high recognition from a group of cub reporters from the local newspapers about 25 or 30 years ago.

Here is another picture from last week of both the stuffed (on left) and thin crust (two pieces on right) pizzas from the Tampa Giordano's.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My Giordano's Style Pizza's (with pics)
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2008, 09:46:17 AM »
Brian200001,

As I understand the regulations on nutrition labeling, a person is not required to specify detail on ingredients for which no nutrition or health claims are made. So, that means that they don't have to tell you which spices and flavorings are used if no nutrition or health claims are made for those ingredients. There are other exemptions, but I don't believe that they would apply to Giordano's.

Some companies routinely disclose everything in their products. A good example of that is shown in this post listing the ingredients used in thin crust pizzas sold by Donatos, a Midwest pizza chain: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2711.msg27747.html#msg27747 (Reply 12). As it so happens, the ingredients list includes milk and eggs. For many years, Donatos made a lot of the fact that they were using an old family dough recipe containing milk and eggs. A few years ago, the company stopped doing that in their advertising and promotional materials. When that happened, I suspected that they were no longer using eggs and milk. However, yesterday I sent an email to Donatos requesting information on their thin crust pizzas. I received a reply this morning, in the form of a Word document, that indicates that Donatos is still using milk and eggs in their thin crusts. Assuming that this is true, and that they are not disseminating outdated nutrition/ingredient information to the outside world, I think that Donatos may be the only major pizza chain of any consequence that is using milk and eggs in their pizza doughs (there are some small independents who do, however). Donatos uses central commissaries and their products have been significantly commercialized, with the use of a lot of chemical additives/preservatives/conditioners, so it is possible that they are using dry forms of milk and eggs. If that is so, it is understandable that they would not want to tout the benefits of using dry milk and dry eggs (or even pasteurized eggs) to the public. That would be a non-starter, especially in a climate where everyone is a bit suspicious of health issues (e.g., contamination) surrounding products like milk and eggs.

So, we should be grateful for the simplicity of the Giordano's deep-dish dough formulation. Someone with well calibrated tastebuds and palate might be able to tell us what types of herbs are used in the Giordano's doughs and in their sauces. It is very common for large pizza companies, and some independents as well, to have spice companies prepare spice packs that are unique to the operator. The most common flavor-contributing ingredients that I can recall as being use in pizza dough are oregano, black pepper, and garlic powder. For sauce, just about anything goes. In the video referenced earlier by loowaters, the president of Giordano's makes reference to their "secret" sauce recipe. 

As for the Giordano's dough formulation itself, we will perhaps have to have some nutrition information of the nature required by the labeling laws to be able to get a better grasp on the relative amounts of the flour, water, oil (I take it that the vegetable oil is soybean oil), salt, and yeast. So, if one of our members has access to that information, as accompanies the frozen pizzas shipped out by Giordano's, for example, that information could prove to be quite helpful.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 07:57:20 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Brian200001

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Re: My Giordano's Style Pizza's (with pics)
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2008, 11:07:15 AM »
Hi BTB and Peter,

The pictures really are telling as to flakiness, and dryness of the crust. Usually its either/or since flakiness is usually attributed to fat.  I do recall that the amount of butter or margarine (or even butter flavored crisco) on their greased pans is sometimes significant.  I saw the guy preparing the pans using a gloved hand and simply scooping a hunk out of a big white bucket and sloppily swiping it all around the pan - leaving "swipe grooves".  Not sure how else to describe it, but definitely not thinly or evenly applied.

The reason it has to be margarine or crisco is because the color appeared to be yellow, and real butter usually tends to become a bit translucent and too soft when sitting at room temperature for a while. 

I bring this point up only because the greased pans most likely accounts for the outer flakiness.

Pete, back to your point great discussion about rules and regulations for ingredients listings.  I wonder if eggs and milk are exempt. Probably not.  I am really interested in making that traditional italian holiday pizza pie sometime this week or the weekend just to see what it comes out like.

I still wonder about the yeast aspect as well. I can swear that there is no hint or flavor of yeast in their crust. That's another item that I'm scratching my head about.

This is getting fun. I appreciate everyones enthusiasm. I'm glad I found this site and I'm glad we have Buzz's foundation.

Brian

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My Giordano's Style Pizza's (with pics)
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2008, 12:05:20 PM »
Pete, back to your point great discussion about rules and regulations for ingredients listings.  I wonder if eggs and milk are exempt. Probably not.

Brian,

The rules and regulations about disclosure and the form of disclosure are very complex but I am certain that ingredients like milk and eggs must be identified, including fat, forms of fat, cholesterol, sodium, protein, etc., and their amounts. There are some exceptions, for example, for very small quantities of certain ingredients/substances, unless a nutrition or health claim is made. Volunteering more than what is legally required is also permitted, but even then the regulations dictate how the volunteered information is to be provided. There are also allergy aspects to be concerned about. Milk and eggs are well known food allergens. Even if used in minuscule quantities, you would want to disclose them. It would be foolhardy not to do so, and just about everyone in the retail food industry knows this. One of the Word documents I received this morning from Donatos was a “Food Allergy and Food Sensitivity  List”, which includes milk, eggs, soy, wheat, gluten and MSG.

I suspect that you are correct about the use of margarine versus butter. Most operators use margarine for the simple reason that it is much cheaper than butter. Some may use a combination of margarine and butter, or maybe a butter-flavored shortening. I didn’t see anything in the list of Giordano ingredients that leads me to believe that Giordano’s is trying to make an artisan product. They appear to be using basic foodservice grade products. Obviously, that has worked out well enough for them not to change anything.

Peter

Offline Brian200001

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Re: My Giordano's Style Pizza's (with pics)
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2008, 12:24:46 PM »
Peter, point well taken.

So I guess we are back to the basics such as how much vegetable oil and yeast and what in the world those "spices" consist of.

Someone previously mentioned they don't detect vanilla. Good enough for me right now.

Nutmeg has been common in some italian holiday breads. I think this spice is still on my list of possibilities.

You mentioned pepper and oregano as common spices for dough but I can't say that I've ever seen pepper or oregano speckles in the crust before. And I must admit I have looked that closely. :0

What strikes me is odd is that the ingredient list you supplied didn't include sugar. Is sugar considered a spice or an ingredient that doesn't need to be disclosed?  (Or maybe you did list sugar and I haven't had enough coffee yet).

Is there any significant difference using quick rise yeast from the grocery store or bakers yeast? Would you happen to know if the quick rise yeast over-ferments hence causing a stronger yeast flavor in the crust that should not be there?

Whatever the list of "spices" really is, its sure to be a subtle combination to account for its uniqueness.  That's why i'm a tiny bit hesitant to rule out vanilla.  (just rambling now) :)

Brian

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My Giordano's Style Pizza's (with pics)
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2008, 03:00:37 PM »
Brian,

To the best of my knowledge, the law does not require people to disclose lists of ingredients. But if they fall into a category that requires them to provide "Nutrition Data", then listing sugar and its quantity no doubt is a requirement. Sugar, and its glycemic values, are a big concern. What I posted in the way of ingredients was exactly as I received the information from Giordano's. I just copied and pasted it to be sure that I didn't make errors of transcription. So, apparently no sugar is used by Giordano's. In general, it's not at item that people try to hide from the world. They might try to hide the amount used, but not its presence or absence from a dough formulation.

I was not able to find anything online about the type of yeast that Giordano's is using. Many operators in recent years have moved from using fresh yeast (aka cake yeast or compressed yeast or wet yeast) to the dryer forms. At first, the shift was to active dry yeast (ADY) and, when instant dry yeast (IDY) came onto the scene, operators increasingly moved to that form of yeast. ADY requires rehydration in water at a prescribed temperature (around 105 degrees F) and for a certain period of time (about 10 minutes), whereas IDY can simply be mixed in with the flour, thereby eliminating a major source of error in using ADY (improper water temperature). The American Institute of Baking conducted tests using the three different forms of yeast with the same dough formulation, preparation and management and could not tell from taste tests which yeast was used with what dough formulation. Some operators still cling to their old yeast choices, either because of personal preference or cost or just out of habit. Usually the best way to get a lot of yeast flavor in the finished crust is to just use a lot of yeast and short fermentation times. Some people confuse yeast flavor with the flavor-byproducts of long fermentation. However, a sensitive palate can distinguish between the two.

Do you know if the people at the Giordano's store level make their own dough on the premises, or does Giordano's deliver dough balls to the stores out of one or more commissaries? Most operators tend to go the commissary route once they get to a certain size. One of the few exceptions that comes to mind is Sbarro's. I believe they still make dough at the store level. If Giordano's is using commissaries, that suggests that they are cold fermenting the dough, or even freezing it.

I know that the Giordano's nutrition data is out there. It's just a matter of finding it. That will provide more clues than an ingredients list.

Peter


Offline Brian200001

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Re: My Giordano's Style Pizza's (with pics)
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2008, 03:22:59 PM »
Peter,

"Do you know if the people at the Giordano's store level make their own dough on the premises, or does Giordano's deliver dough balls to the stores out of one or more commissaries?"

I can't speak to that. I am only guessing when I say that the dough recipe seems to be so elusive that I can't imagine that just anyone working there, past and present, wouldn't have divulged it already.  I suppose the secret "spices" could still be kept secret even if they are making the dough on site though.  Logically speaking, when you have a high profile franchise where taste and consistency are crucial from store to store, the franchisees typically have to purchase from the commissaries.  Subway owners get their dough and even meats individually wrapped.  Of course McDonalds owners certainly aren't allowed to buy patties on sale elsewhere, etc.  So I don't know, whats your take?  Or is it your opinion or gut thinking that its a pretty basic dough and there may not be any real magic to it?

On the topic of yeast again, Buzz' recipe suggests a very long rise time - 8 hours or so.  Could that have been the reason for the yeast flavored aspect to the crust?

I've made the recipe (many of the clones actually) and when allowing a long rise time typically results in a yeast flavor.  I can't say I can tell the difference between too much yeast in a recipe or over fermantation.  Furthermore, with the presence of sugar in the Buzz recipe, more fermantaton is sure to occur.  I've had luck eliminating this by scaling back on the yeast or not allowing for a 5-8 hour rise time.  Other than that, not sure how to approach that taste aspect if the buzz recipe is accurate in its amount of yeast.

I appreciate your insight and thoughts on the topic,   Brian

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My Giordano's Style Pizza's (with pics)
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2008, 05:05:53 PM »
Brian,

The reason I asked you about using the commissaries as the origin of the dough balls used in the Giordano's stores is because knowing the answer to that question will tell us a lot about how the dough is made and maybe even something about the dough formulation itself. For example, if the dough balls are made in one or more commissaries and delivered to the stores on some regular basis, that will usually mean that the dough balls are cold fermented. And the formulation will reflect the time between the manufacture of the dough balls and the delivery to individual stores. This system rules out the possibility of using an ambient (room temperature) fermentation. No one that I am aware of makes fresh dough balls at one location and delivers them to another location the same day. That might occur for a couple of stores owned by one person where the dough balls are made at one of the two locations, but not for a chain the size of Giordano's.

If the dough balls are made at the store level, then they can be either cold fermented dough balls or room temperature fermented dough balls. In the latter instance, the dough formulation would have to be adapted to the room temperature fermentation scenario, as by using much less yeast. Otherwise, the dough can overferment over a period of several hours at room temperature. In buzz's case, I estimate that he uses 1.5% ADY. That is equivalent to what one might ordinarily use to make a few-hours dough (made and used within about 3 hours) except that in buzz's case he is also using a lot of oil, which may allow him to push the room temperature fermentation period out to 8 hours. Using buzz's method could conceivably work in a commercial setting (Neapolitan pizza makers regularly make and use the dough the same day), but it also means that any unused dough balls would either have to be discarded at the end of the day (because they won't make it to the next day) or used in whole or in part in the next dough batch for use in making pizzas the next day. That alone could affect the flavor profile of the next day's crusts, and could produce inconsistent results from one day to the next if not properly managed. Managing cold fermented dough and inventory is simply easier for most operators than working with same-day dough. Of course, buzz can give a hoot about what Giordano's does in its stores except to the extent that he would like to be served good pizzas when he visits such stores. What really matter to him is how can he make a Giordano's clone at home in his own oven. In buzz's case, the 8 hours of room temperature fermentation and 1.5% ADY should yield both yeast flavors (because of the amount of yeast used) and flavors from a long room temperature fermentation. If you didn't detect yeast flavors in Giordano's crusts, that could have been because the dough balls were cold fermented (and using low levels of yeast) and were used fairly promptly, like the same or next day.

As you might suspect, supplying dough balls to the Giordano's stores from commissaries keeps most of the trade secrets from the employees in the stores. Using dough premixes in the stores pretty much does the same thing. It is only when every step of the dough making process is in the hands of the store employees that the risk of disclosure of trade secrets increases. Even then, it is possible to keep some of the trade secret information out of the hands of the employees, as by using pre-prepared spice/herb mixes for sauces and dough, as you noted. It all depends on how far you want to go to keep information from the employees, and how far you want to go to impress upon the employees the need to protect proprietary information and the price to be paid for failing to do so (like getting fired).

My best guess is that we may ultimately discover that the dough formulation used by Giordano's is pretty straightforward and that their methods of dough preparation and dough management are also pretty straightforward. The wrinkles may be the types of herbs and spices used in the dough and in the sauce. Knowing how Giordano's makes the dough, taken together with the nutrition data for their products, is likely to be the most direct path to deciphering the Giordano's code.

Peter


Offline Brian200001

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Re: My Giordano's Style Pizza's (with pics)
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2008, 11:42:59 AM »
Hi Pete.
I wanted to revisit one of your previous posts where you listed out the Giordano's ingredients for their crust.  For the Spinich pizza crust you have listed "olive" in there. I guess I over looked this at first.  Can this be right?  I would assume the crust fot all of their pies are identical.

you wrote:

Cheese Stuffed Pizza
 
Ingredients:  Crust (Flour, water, vegetable oil, yeast, salt, spices), Sauce (Tomatoes, Tomato Puree, salt, spices, calcium chloride), Mozzarella Cheese (Pasteurized whole and skim milk, cheese cultures, salt, enzymes), Parmesan Cheese (Pasteurized part skim milk, cheese cultures, salt, powdered cellulose)
 
Spinach Stuffed Pizza
 
Ingredients:  Crust (Flour, water, vegetable oil, olive, yeast, salt, spices), Sauce (Tomatoes, Tomato Puree, salt, spices, calcium chloride), Mozzarella Cheese (Pasteurized whole and skim milk, cheese cultures, salt, enzymes), Parmesan Cheese (Pasteurized part skim milk, cheese cultures, salt, powdered cellulose), Spinach.
 
Veggie Stuffed Pizza
 
Ingredients:  Crust (Flour, water, vegetable oil, yeast, salt, spices), Sauce (Tomatoes, Tomato Puree, salt, spices, calcium chloride), Mozzarella Cheese (Pasteurized whole and skim milk, cheese cultures, salt, enzymes),  Parmesan Cheese (Pasteurized part skim milk, cheese cultures, salt, powdered cellulose), Onions, Green Pepper, Mushrooms.

Brian

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My Giordano's Style Pizza's (with pics)
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2008, 12:27:00 PM »
Brian,

You have a good eye. I missed the "olive" altogether. I was paying most attention to the cheese pizza because it is easier to analyze that pizza than the ones with a lot more stuff in them.

If I had to guess, I would say that the inclusion of "olive" is a mistake. Even if olive oil was meant, it wouldn't seem to make any sense to have a special dough just for the spinach deep-dish pie. It's possible, but it strikes me as illogical from a business standpoint. Maybe I can follow up with Giordano's on that point.

Peter

Offline Za guy

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Re: My Giordano's Style Pizza's (with pics)
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2008, 09:18:26 PM »
Hi guys - great thread.  I'm a noob here, but would like to help advance or at least catch up to the state of the art in terms of reverse engineering Giordano's Stuffed Pizzas.  Admitedly, my credibility starts out very low though, because my first attempt to even make a Stuffed Spinach (and extras) pie was pretty messed up.  Last week I cobbled together the info from about three different "recipes" found on this thread, a Pizza cookbook (by James McNair I believe) and from the Recipes section of this web-site and gave it a go.  But if I had read a bit more closely before starting, I would have realized that the dough formulation for a 10" pan (Buzz's formula used for the beautiful pies at the start of this threads pics) would not cut it for my 12" pan.  I knew 1.5 cups of flour seemed low.  So, after getting the spinach all cooked up and the onions, mushrooms and sausage all ready to go, I had to bail out on having an upper crust and just made it into a deep dish pie.  It was ok, no casualties here.  But I think I put the tomatoe sauce on too early and also seem to have put way too much parmesan on top, then cooked it for a long time to make sure the sausage got cooked.  In the process I burnt the crud out of the 5 oz. of Parmesan I put on top.  The top of the pie was more of a scorched brown than a nice rich red like I was hoping for.  

But I'll try again.  I just found the 6-in-1 brand tomatoes in a local store, and some better sausage too.  I bought two of the 14"" Chicago Metal Works pie pans, so will make sure I scale up whatever recipe I settle on so it looks more like a real pie.  That Travel Channel video of Giordano's kitchen and their pie assembly operation sure helps.  I see I definitely want to have a surplus of dough so both layers can drape over the top like that to be pinched together then the excess dough rolled off.

With my clear lack of credentials layed out up-front, I am wondering about the topic of that crust.  It has been a long time since I've had one of these fab Giordano's pies from Chicago.  But people here have said the crust is somewhat pastry-like, and the pictures sure look that way too.  I let my dough rise 8 hours before I rolled it out and tried to fit it to my pan.  But it came out kind of bready, I thought.  The crust I remember from years ago was a little chewier in the center and flakier on the outside, I think. The formulation I used was sort of like the recipe the thread author suggested, with some sight adjustments after reading the debate about sugar, yeast and salt levels.  In other words, I have no idea what I did.  

Before I go back to the drawing board and figure out the right amounts needed to make two 14" pies, I asked my wife how she makes flakier pie crusts (she can bake pretty well).  Her answer was clear - butter.  When pressed, she also said shortening works too.  People used to use lard for pastry, right?  There must be something about fat in solid form that beats the healthier liquid vegetable oils for that.  But butter for sure.  She said it's important how you fold in the butter - she makes pie dough with a food processer and folds in the butter so it still has some discrete blobs in the dough that then spreads locally during cooking.  

What I am wondering is if the ingredient list given to Pete by Giordano's, could the vegetable oil be vegetable shortening?  The wikipedia description of Crisco called it vegetable oil, so could they be using something like that?  That's certainly not a fancy ingredient, but could it explain the flakiness?  I hope I'm not blaspheming, because it sounds sort of gross to me - I mean just look at all the side uses of Crisco btw, yikes!  In addition to its baking uses, it can be used to make shovel blades waterproof, remove ink from clothes, and oh yeah, as a personal lubricant:

Web-browse to here to see what I'm talking about:    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisco  

And btw, I've heard that the way some of these companies are now trying to pass off these garbage hydrogenated oils as having "0 grams of trans-fats" is basically specmanship - they pick a "serving size" for the nutritional disclosure such that the amount of trans-fats in that sample size rounds down to 0 grams rather than rounds up to 1 gram.  It's not truly zero though.  So basically, you still have to watch out for anything hydrogenated in ingrediant lists and avoid it like the plague if you like your heart to work.

OK, sorry to ramble about that.  My other question has to do with when to put the tomatoe sauce (and Parmesan) on top of the pie.  One or more recipes I found suggest baking the pie for a while to brown the upper crust before adding the tomatoe sauce.  Sounds right to me.  Is that what you guys do?  I wasn't sure from the video if Giordano's bakes the pies at all before adding the sauce.  Seems like it would be harder to mass produce in their restaurants.  OK - thanks for any replies folks,

Jim    

BTB,

Thanks for the clarification on the number of Giordano's store locations. I had taken the store count from their website.

I am usually careful about anecdotal information that I see on websites on the subject of pizza but I recalled reading in several places that the Giordano's frozen pizzas were par-baked. To see if I could nail this point down, I called Giordano's this morning. The customer service rep (in the order department) I spoke with said that the frozen pizzas are par-baked but it wasn't clear whether she treated a full bake as a par-bake--meaning a bake before the final bake conducted by a purchaser. Also, from my questioning, I wasn’t sure that she was familiar enough with their processes to give me a precise answer. So, I sent Giordano's an email. This time, however, I used the expression "partially baked" rather than "par-baked". While I was at it, I asked if they could tell me the ingredients in their crusts.

I received a reply this afternoon from the Director of Marketing at Giordano's. The frozen Giordano's deep-dish pizzas are indeed partially baked, and then frozen. He was obliging enough to also give me the ingredients for their frozen pizzas:

Cheese Stuffed Pizza
 
Ingredients:  Crust (Flour, water, vegetable oil, yeast, salt, spices), Sauce (Tomatoes, Tomato Puree, salt, spices, calcium chloride), Mozzarella Cheese (Pasteurized whole and skim milk, cheese cultures, salt, enzymes), Parmesan Cheese (Pasteurized part skim milk, cheese cultures, salt, powdered cellulose)
 
Spinach Stuffed Pizza
 
Ingredients:  Crust (Flour, water, vegetable oil, olive, yeast, salt, spices), Sauce (Tomatoes, Tomato Puree, salt, spices, calcium chloride), Mozzarella Cheese (Pasteurized whole and skim milk, cheese cultures, salt, enzymes), Parmesan Cheese (Pasteurized part skim milk, cheese cultures, salt, powdered cellulose), Spinach.
 
Veggie Stuffed Pizza
 
Ingredients:  Crust (Flour, water, vegetable oil, yeast, salt, spices), Sauce (Tomatoes, Tomato Puree, salt, spices, calcium chloride), Mozzarella Cheese (Pasteurized whole and skim milk, cheese cultures, salt, enzymes),  Parmesan Cheese (Pasteurized part skim milk, cheese cultures, salt, powdered cellulose), Onions, Green Pepper, Mushrooms.


I can’t say that I was surprised by the dough ingredients. They are broad enough to cover many Chicago-style pizza doughs, although I have no idea what “spices” might be used in Giordano's crusts. It would still be interesting to see the nutritional information to examine for clues that might shed some light on the relative amounts of ingredients. I’m fairly certain that that information accompanies their frozen pizzas.

Peter



Offline BTB

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Re: My Giordano's Style Pizza's (with pics)
« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2008, 08:49:51 AM »
Hey Jim,  just a couple of thoughts while you're awaiting some response from others.  Suggest you learn how to use the dough calculation tools real well.  They are very easy once you learn how and incredibly helpful to track what you're doing so you can improve on the next pizza you make.  You can adjust the size of the pizza and thereafter get the amount of each ingredient needed for each size.  After getting the formulation from the tool (its summarized on the bottom), I print it out and date it with any special comments or thoughts about it and keep it in the file for referring to the next time that I make that style pizza.

Regarding butter or shortening, I've made some great pizzas without any at all.  I've recently experimented with just a slight (I call it a "dab") of softened butter and I like those, but I don't think I'd like it with a lot of butter.  I've also tried some with a lot of Crisco and while they were pretty good, I like those with oil better.  My take from recently having a Giordano's pizza is that they did not contain butter, margarine, shortening, or at least not in any significant way that I could tell.

I know that Giordano's does not baked their stuffed pies first without tomato sauce, at least not at their restaurants.  They baked it from the onset with the sauce on (some of their customers, including me, have complained sometimes when they don't put enough on and the top becomes all dried up).  You may want to experiment with that on a smaller size pizza.  I assume you cooked the pizza at home on the bottom rack at around 450 degree F, which I think is the best, but you may want to experiment with that in your oven going 25 degrees either way, up or down.  The stuffed pizzas, especially a 14" large size, takes from 30 to 45 minutes.  Pizzas baked on a higher rack too often get that scorched look that you described, but if it is occurring on the bottom rack, Buzz' good suggestion was to put a sheet of aluminum foil loosely on the top for the first 15 or 20 minutes of baking.

I will let others talk about and hopefully give you some suggestions about the formulation for the crust, which is about the most important thing.  Good luck and have fun learning how to do it better.
--BTB

Ed--Also don't over-mix or over-knead the dough.  I think that is very important to avoid the "bready" dough that often results from kneading it too long.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2008, 08:58:03 AM by BTB »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My Giordano's Style Pizza's (with pics)
« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2008, 09:44:14 AM »
Jim,

Offhand, I don’t know if the law allows someone to specify a solid fat like margarine or shortening without breaking it down into the oil used and whether it is hydrogenated or partially-hydrogenated. Usually, the latter method is used. To give you an example, you may want to take a look at the ingredients list for the deep-dish pizzas made at Edwardo’s, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,294.msg2247.html#msg2247. As you will note in that post, Steve, who entered the post, there was speculation that the owner of Edwardo’s, who had previously worked for Giordano’s, was using the same dough recipe at Edwardo’s. That recipe calls for solid fat, not oil. I did a fair amount of searching on this point yesterday, and I was not able to find anything that confirms what Steve said about the recipe. If we are able to find the Nutrition Data for the Giordano’s pizzas, that might shed some light on the oil/fat makeup of the crust. I know that the information exists because the government would not allow Giordano’s to sell their frozen pizzas without it.

Another interesting thing about the Edwardo’s ingredients list is the way that “spices” is characterized. Although that term is used in relation to the sauce, and not the crust, it apparently can include salt, garlic, basil, oregano, black pepper, and soybean oil. Maybe the law will allow one to use the term “spices” in such an oddball way if the specific ingredients are listed. I personally would not consider salt and soybean oil to be spices.

FYI, the dough calculating tool that BTB referred to that applies to deep-dish dough formulations is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dd_calculator.html.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 08:08:51 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Brian200001

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Re: My Giordano's Style Pizza's (with pics)
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2008, 12:17:19 PM »
Hi all,
I too am very interested in the vegetable oil versus vegetable shortenting (i.e. crisco) conversation going on.  Although my 2 cents would be that mixing the flour, salt, yeast and oil together (before the water), would make this just about a mute point.  Mixing as such creates similar characteristics of making pastery or pie crust - tiny grains of fat which would lend themselves to flakiness.  (This topic has been discussed on the boards as well).

I also wanted to check in with some of my investigative research regarding the Giordano's crust. I keep revisiting the statements made by Giordano's and Nancy's founders on their respective websites. Both pizza crusts are described as originating from a mothers or grandmothers old world italian recipe for easter pie, holiday pie or holiday cake with ricotta cheese and a whole host of other meats and cheeses stuffed like a pie - similar to today's Giordano's stuffed pizza.  (Please read the nancy's pizza and giordano's sites regarding their statements).

I've scoured the internet and have taken a look at dozens of these old world recipes to come up with a few very compelling ingredients to try and incorporate into our test pizza's.
Here is the process I used to qualify my findings:

1. There has to be "some" ingredients carried forward to the Giordano's Pizza from these original holiday easter pies to make the pizza unique in flavor and hold true to their statments that the crust originates from these italian holiday easter cakes and pies.

2. I threw out all ingredients in the holiday easter pies which we know are not listed in the giordano's crust (milk, eggs, baking powder, etc. to name a few)

3. I've kept all possible ingredients from the easter holiday pies that can be categorized as "SPICES". - Since the list of ingredients in the Giordano's crust simply says: "SPICES" without disclosing the individual spices, we must at least consider the unique holiday easter pie ingredients as possible missing items.

4. Keep in mind that just because an ingredient doesn't taste prevelant, doesn't mean its not there. Many "spices" blend together to create a single signature flavor. (What does KFC have -- like 8 secret spices or something?)

Ok.. with that said, the following additional spices I will try to add one at a time are:

* Vanilla
* Millifori - (Orange-Flower essence as a substitute (or orange rind as a last result substitute)).
* Sugar - (if this can be considered a "Spice" since Petes Giordano's ingredient list does not list sugar explicitly).

Additional notes:
A few easter holiday pies also stated lemon OR orange. Some stated lemon AND orange rind. Since its not uncommon to include a bit of lemon in the sauce, lemon rind could be included in the sauce.

A small amount of holiday easter pies also include cinnamon. I personally wouldn't think I've ever tasted any hint of cinnamon in the pizza, but again, it could be a miniscule amount to shape the overall taste of the pizza when biting into it.

Lastly, my intention is to simply list these ingredients from some research I've done. Hopefully it doesn't just add confusion or worse, make us more uncertain about the track we are on. I just wanted to do some good old fashioned investigative work and draw some logical conclusions.  Afterall, the ingredient called "Spices" exist in their crust and in their sauce. They obviously have something they want to keep close to their vest and keep their pizza unique.  All of this is just my opinion of course. 

As for me personally, the next time I try the recipe, I will add a touch of orange rind and a touch of vanilla. I'll start with that. (I already add a teaspoon of lemon juice in my sauce to cut the tomato acids).  I have no idea where to purchase this Millifori or orange flower-essence so I don't know what these taste like in relation to orange rind.  Bottom line is, that was the re-occurring ingredient in all the easter holiday pies and cakes.

Brian



Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My Giordano's Style Pizza's (with pics)
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2008, 12:33:33 PM »
Brian,

Like you, I suspect that there may be a connection between the Giordano's deep-dish pizzas and the Easter Pie, for the reasons you mentioned and despite the long passage of time. And, like you, I did a fair amount of searching for Easter Pie recipes over the weekend, both of the sweet variety and the savory variety. I also saw cinnamon but another spice that made an impression was nutmeg. It showed up more for sweet pies but I did see it a few times for savory pies. Nutmeg has a subtle but noticeable flavor, and can be used in many dishes in small amounts. As with cinnamon, it is also readily available. When I tried searches combining nutmeg or cinnamon with Giordano's, I did not find anything. In fact, I am surprised by how little is published about Giordano's and available on the Internet. About all you will find is reviews of their pizzas.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My Giordano's Style Pizza's (with pics)
« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2008, 01:49:47 PM »
Over the weekend I sent another email to Giordano's, asking whether there possibly was an error in the spinach deep-dish pizza information that was previously emailed to me. This morning I received a reply that "olive oil" was intended, not olives in some form. Curiously, that suggests that there is more than one dough formulation. To me, that doesn't make good business sense, given the powerful flavors of spinach and sauce, etc. that can mask the flavors of the crust.

I have twice asked for the nutrition data on the Giordano's pies, and twice my requests have been ignored. I'm trying hard not to read too much into that. People don't always reread their emails before completing their replies. I see that happen a lot with posts on this forum.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 14, 2008, 01:52:26 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline Brian200001

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Re: My Giordano's Style Pizza's (with pics)
« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2008, 02:20:50 PM »
Pete,
I actually sent an email over the weekend asking about the spices.
I figure what the heck - haha.

By the way, regarding my previous post - have you ever heard of such a spice/herb as that millifori or orange flower-essence as supposedly an cornerstone spice/herb used in the holiday easter pies?  Have you seen that in your research as well?

I know its not quite practical for them to use an exotic herb or spice. But then again, they're Giordano's and certainly buying in bulk would lower the cost. As I said, I don't have a clue as to its rarity or popularity. Perhaps its as common as oregano in italy - i'm quite ignorant to it so I just don't know.

I have read posts online regarding the usage of this spice and some suggested that orange rind was not nearly as good of a flavor. After all, we're not looking for an orange flavored crust either.  doh!

Brian


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My Giordano's Style Pizza's (with pics)
« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2008, 02:52:10 PM »
By the way, regarding my previous post - have you ever heard of such a spice/herb as that millifori or orange flower-essence as supposedly an cornerstone spice/herb used in the holiday easter pies?  Have you seen that in your research as well?

Brian,

No, I did not spot the millifori or other like ingredient in my searches. It may have been there but since I was looking for something more prosaic, I may have missed it entirely. Also, on matters like these, I tend to put on a business hat and think about what makes sense from a business standpoint, especially for a company that is growing and expanding into other areas, like Florida, and where common business practices are imposed upon all of the locations. That's why I wonder whether it makes sense to have multiple doughs. Multiple size dough balls are often a necessity, because of different pizza sizes, but multiple formulations usually can be avoided. As you may know, many Chicago-area pizzerias use the same dough for their deep-dish as for their thin crust pizzas. Having too many different doughs just complicates matters. 

Peter

Offline Za guy

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Re: My Giordano's Style Pizza's (with pics)
« Reply #44 on: January 15, 2008, 12:27:08 AM »
Hi all,

Thanks for all the replies.  Well I really like this idea about printing off a copy of a dough calculation tool when I am doing my pie experiments.  But there sure seems to be some set-up work required to get the knack of using baker's percentages.  If it helps make things repeatable, I do see the benefit.  I also like the fact that it helps with scaling, and it also looks like a handy way to make a journal with dates and notes as one makes the pie journey.  But I am anxious about getting a correct starting point.  I don't want my next two pies (I have two new 14" pans now) to be kind of bad like my 1st attempt was.  If that happens, my wife may make me abandon my new hobby as fast as I started it!  Right now I am filling in this form, and am already stuck on what numbers to use for % hydration and also thickness factor.  Then if I look below, I in fact realize I have no idea what to put in those blanks.  Perhaps this tool is for more advanced pizza makers than this noob right now?

I'll look at the post in the "click here" link that describes how to use it before I ask too many questions about it.  But I'm getting analysis paralysis already just looking at it.At first blush, it seems like one would need to have a decent food scale to actually figure out the weights and percentage weights of a given recipe, have a decent recipe to start with, then weigh the actual amounts in your starting recipe so you can plug the values into the tool  (ie, know the weight of quantities like X Tablespoons of Olive Oil, 1/2 cup of water, etc, and this would all be in order to start making well documented adjustments in the recipe as one moves on to later generations of pies.  

Oh heck, I have no clue.  Are there any examples already filled out for a 14" Stuffed Spinach Pizza?  My immediate desire is to make two 14" pies.  I was happy with the Spinach filling last time, but for two larger pies, would probably need to make about three times as much as I did (need about 9 bunches of fresh Spinach, before cleaning and wilting it, etc. on the cooktop.  I probably need to make about 4 times as much dough as I made last time, since that recipe was for one pie in a 10" pan.  I made the dough using a sort of hybrid of the two formulations quoted in this thread and attributed to Buzz:

"Buzz #1":

1.5 cups KA AP
6 Tablespoons water
9 teaspoons canola oil
.80 teaspoons yeast
.40 teaspoons Kosher salt
.40 teaspoons sugar

"Buzz #2":

1.5 cups AP (I used Gold Medal)
8 TBS (.50 cup water)
3.5 TBS canola oil
1 tsp yeast
.75 tsp Kosher salt
.75 tsp. sugar

For my filling, I think I used the Stuffed Spinach recipe on this site (and it was GOOD!), plus added some sausage:  
(web browse to here):  pizzamaking.com/stuffed.php

I could start with something like that only first multiply it up.  I'd rather have a surplus of dough when I go to build these things than a deficit.  If there are more tips on how to use the dough calculation too using either one of these recipes as a starting point, I think I'd love to hear them too.  Other than that, thanks all.  I'll let you know what happens next!  (and if it's a decent pie, will try to post some pics).

Aside from that, thanks also for the answer about the tomato sauce (and also about maybe using a little butter).  Yep, I see from the video that the sauce went on right after they threw on the upper crust and poked the steam vent holes in it.  Also for the reminder to use the bottom rack in the oven.  I have seen that suggestion almost as much as I have seen the 6-in-1 brand tomatoes recommended, so I'll do it.  

ok - g'night ch'all,
Jim      

Hey Jim,  just a couple of thoughts while you're awaiting some response from others.  Suggest you learn how to use the dough calculation tools real well.  They are very easy once you learn how and incredibly helpful to track what you're doing so you can improve on the next pizza you make.  You can adjust the size of the pizza and thereafter get the amount of each ingredient needed for each size.  After getting the formulation from the tool (its summarized on the bottom), I print it out and date it with any special comments or thoughts about it and keep it in the file for referring to the next time that I make that style pizza.

Regarding butter or shortening, I've made some great pizzas without any at all.  I've recently experimented with just a slight (I call it a "dab") of softened butter and I like those, but I don't think I'd like it with a lot of butter.  I've also tried some with a lot of Crisco and while they were pretty good, I like those with oil better.  My take from recently having a Giordano's pizza is that they did not contain butter, margarine, shortening, or at least not in any significant way that I could tell.

I know that Giordano's does not baked their stuffed pies first without tomato sauce, at least not at their restaurants.  They baked it from the onset with the sauce on (some of their customers, including me, have complained sometimes when they don't put enough on and the top becomes all dried up).  You may want to experiment with that on a smaller size pizza.  I assume you cooked the pizza at home on the bottom rack at around 450 degree F, which I think is the best, but you may want to experiment with that in your oven going 25 degrees either way, up or down.  The stuffed pizzas, especially a 14" large size, takes from 30 to 45 minutes.  Pizzas baked on a higher rack too often get that scorched look that you described, but if it is occurring on the bottom rack, Buzz' good suggestion was to put a sheet of aluminum foil loosely on the top for the first 15 or 20 minutes of baking.

I will let others talk about and hopefully give you some suggestions about the formulation for the crust, which is about the most important thing.  Good luck and have fun learning how to do it better.
--BTB

Ed--Also don't over-mix or over-knead the dough.  I think that is very important to avoid the "bready" dough that often results from kneading it too long.

Offline pkasten

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Re: My Giordano's Style Pizza's (with pics)
« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2008, 07:14:13 AM »
Before I go back to the drawing board and figure out the right amounts needed to make two 14" pies, I asked my wife how she makes flakier pie crusts (she can bake pretty well).  Her answer was clear - butter.  When pressed, she also said shortening works too.  People used to use lard for pastry, right?  There must be something about fat in solid form that beats the healthier liquid vegetable oils for that.  But butter for sure.  She said it's important how you fold in the butter - she makes pie dough with a food processer and folds in the butter so it still has some discrete blobs in the dough that then spreads locally during cooking.  

Yeah.. butter.  Shortening does work too, but all that partially hydrogenated junk isn't that good for you.  Personally, I've cut foods made from that kind of stuff out of my diet so completely that I don't really worry about having something like that a few times a year.  Lard, while we all know it's unhealthy, is certainly better for you than something created by a chemical process in a factory, richer in flavor, and simply performs better in a crust than its synthetic substitutes. 

I've posted previously on this topic (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4377.0.html), which I thought crust-wise was a better example of what Giordano's represents than the stuff they sell. 

I enjoy their pizza, but like any chain that wants to make a buck selling pizza, they have to keep their prices down, and they do so by introducing stuff like "vegetable oil" in whatever form they're using it to their dough.  I'd be willing to bet that when it started out as a family-run, single-shop business, they used higher quality ingredients.  As they grew, they looked at ways to gradually change their product (to make more money) that the customer would not perceive... gradually scaling back on more expensive ingredients in favor of modern, cheap substitutes.

I decided that while my crust was pretty already pretty rich in that case, cutting out the vegetable oil entirely, in favor of butter, shortening/lard, while keeping the olive oil the same, will produce the ultimate flaky crust... far better than anything Giordano's can afford to sell you without jacking the prices quite a bit.

What is really important in a flaky crust is saturated vs. unsaturated fat.  Saturated fats are solid at room temperature, while unsaturated fats are not.  To create those flakes, you have to cut the flour into the fat, just as your wife said, to the point where most of the blobs are about pea sized.  To keep the fat from breaking down too fast or melting with the friction of the mixing process, it is best to use cold fat (if butter, diced and almost frozen would be best) and cold water.  I like to measure out my water first, then throw it in the freezer for a while, as I weigh out the other ingredients and get things going.   

I suppose that my main message is that you can use the information gleaned from this forum, along with a fair amount of experimentation, to make a pizza that captures all of the things you love about a particular pizzeria's product in something that is much better in the end.

Paul

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My Giordano's Style Pizza's (with pics)
« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2008, 08:08:53 AM »
Jim,

I would be happy to help you out with the use of the deep-dish tool but unfortunately I will be out of town for about a week.

You are correct that you need baker's percents to use the deep-dish tool, along with either a desired dough weight or a thickness factor. There are several deep-dish dough recipes on the forum that are in baker's percent format and also have an indicated thickness factor (most tend to be in the 0.12-0.135 range). Unfortunately, buzz's recipes are not in that format. buzz uses only volume measurements and they would have to be converted to baker's percent format to use in the deep-dish tool. Because different people measure out flour by volume in different ways, the major obstacle in doing a conversion is to determine how much the flour measured out by volume weighs. This can vary from one person to another depending on the method used to measure out the flour by volume. To do a proper conversion, one would have to try the recipe, maybe even several times, and weigh the flour, water and oil each time (the rest of the ingredients can be kept in volume measurements), and from all the tests pick the values that worked the best. I once tried doing such a conversion with buzz's recipes (and reported on my results in the Chicago section, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1585.msg14462.html#msg14462) but I wasn't able to make enough pies to produce results that I thought were close enough to buzz's results. Part of the exercise in this thread is to go through a similar analysis with the Giordano's dough but using information received from Giordano's plus our own collateral research. We think we know the ingredients but we don't know the percents of ingredients used. If we are able to get in the ballpark, we might be able to get reasonably close by making a bunch of test pies.

As noted above, there are several deep-dish dough recipes on the forum that are recited in baker's percent format, along with thickness factor values. Loowaters has some excellent recipes (one of his early efforts is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4070.0.html, but later modified) and foodblogger has one for the Gino's East clone (see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2620.msg22678.html#msg22678 and also a version by loowaters at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5047.msg42756.html#msg42756). DKM also has a few, including one in the recipe section of the forum (at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dkm_chicago.php). And there are others scattered throughout the Chicago style section of the forum. Wherever possible, I have tried to convert deep-dish dough recipes to baker's percent format as I came upon them while assisting other members so that the recipes could be used with the deep-dish tool. Maybe some of those members can cite their favorite recipes in the baker's percent format for you to try. You might also do a forum search for "stuffed" pizzas. There are only a few, I believe.

You are correct that a scale is an important companion to the deep-dish tool. But its value is mainly in weighing the the flour and water (and the oil if used in large amount). Volume measurements can be used for the remaining ingredients.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 08:35:44 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline goosen1

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Re: My Giordano's Style Pizza's (with pics)
« Reply #47 on: January 15, 2008, 12:55:04 PM »
Jim,

I was wondering what type of pan that you are using for your pizza? You said in your last post that you are using a 14" pan. Are your sides of your pan straight or sloped? As for which recipe are you going to go with?? I was tinkering with the recipe Buzz #2, In one of buzz's, He had said that he wanted to increase the dough by about 1/3 so it can fit his pan. I was guessing that he might have a 14" pan.

Goose
« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 02:42:40 PM by goosen1 »
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Offline Za guy

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Re: My Giordano's Style Pizza's (with pics)
« Reply #48 on: January 15, 2008, 04:05:57 PM »
Thanks for the excellent reply, Pete!  The pies on the pages you linked indeed look fantastic.  And the assistance with the baker's percentages is also much appreciated.  It was clear right away that a tool like that would be very useful to use for experimentation and then for repeatability of results.  But I knew I wasn't at the starting point yet without more info.  I see the value in starting out properly, else my initial efforts will probably be wasted, even if edible.  So I'll look through all this info more carefully, and probably just tide over my hunger pangs some other way for a while.  This "Perfection in Pizza Pursuit" is clearly a hobby, no a CALLING!  Patience is advised, right?

Thanks again for the great starting point.  What a cool forum I found here!  I already turned on a buddy of mine to these pages, and while a great cook, he's more a NY-style afficianado.  Maybe I can convert him to the home town pies!  Geez, look at me, I'm already obsessed with this.  That's typical...

thx,
Jim

Offline Za guy

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Re: My Giordano's Style Pizza's (with pics)
« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2008, 05:03:47 PM »
Hey Goose,

Well my first pie was made using my wife's fancy all-metal 12" Kitchenaid straight-sided Frying Pan.  It is pretty deep, maybe 3" or even 3 1/2", so I only pulled the dough about halfway up the sides on the pan.  It stuck to the sides some, but I was able to get it out of the pan largely intact.  That part of the experiment worked ok.  I ran out of dough though, so had to forgoe the upper crust and it was no longer going to be the stuffed Pizza I set out to make.  No biggy.  I coated the bottom and sides with some butter and then smeared on some EV Olive Oil to boot.  Worked ok.  She later advised first applying some some PAM before the other fats.  Said it works even better come cleaning-up-time.     

But before I did that, I went out shopping for pans and couldn't find any at JCPenny's nor Macy's online, my two best guesses where to get a pan around here in a hurry.  When that didn't work, I Googled "Deep Dish Pans" and found these 14.5" Chicago Metallic pans at Amazon.  They just got delivered, after my first pie was made.  They are said to be made of steel and have a super-dooper lifetime non-stick surface.  These pans have sloping sides (which does not quite remind me of what I remember about Gino's East). I haven'e used them yet.  I hope they're decent ones - they sure cost enough!

Browse to here to see 'em (I can't paste in the whole link with the www stuff, etc, as I am still a dangerous newbie loose on the forum  ;-) :

http://www.amazon.com/Chicago-Metallic-Professional-Deep-Pizza/dp/B0000VLGYI/?tag=pizzamaking-20

As for which recipe I'm gonna fool with next, I think I'm going to review more closely the info Pete just posted and see if I can start properly using the dough tool and baker's percentages and everything.  I may have to buy a decent food scale somewhere though.  I'm not expecting instant perfection, but instead expect to have to work at this a while to be able to get some really good pies as well as decent pie-making skills.  I believe my patience will be rewarded, I mean just look at the pics of these pies folks here are making.  The links Pete just posted have some nice ones, and I also found another good looking pie on a thread here named:  "Topic: Possibly my prettiest...with pics!".  That person (loowaters?) seems to have perfected the pie style at a famous Chi place I'd never been to called Malnati's.  Killer looking pies in that thread!

Back to the topic of pans and dough amounts in Buzz #1 or #2 recipes I pasted in:   1+1/2 cups of flour sure seems to make a small dough ball.  I have four eaters here, so I'd definitely like a bigger pie.  Shoot, I'll admit it - I'd want a bigger pie even if my wife and kids left me!  Maybe even bigger in that case (I'd probably be depressed and want some comfort food).  I did realize that I can't fit two 14" pans on my lowest rack of the oven at the same time.  Maybe that's why so many seem to use 10" pans.  But after buying two 14" ers, I lucked out and realized that I have double ovens.  I'm back in the two-at-a-time pie business!

Sorry to ramble on.  Wow, I have this incredible urge to go to the kitchen and make something with my new toys(and tomatoes)!

good luck,
Jim

Jim,

I was wondering what type of pan that you are using for your pizza? You said in your last post that you are using a 14" pan. Are your sides of your pan straight or sloped? As for which recipe are you going to go with?? I was tinkering with the recipe Buzz #2, In one of buzz's, He had said that he wanted to increase the dough by about 1/3 so it can fit his pan. I was guessing that he might have a 14" pan.

Goose