My Giordano's Style Pizza's (with pics)

[sourdough girl]

Za guy,
I don't think your question was dumb... but are you talking about draining pizza sauce in your last post?  Seems to me that it would still be the clear liquid, which, to me does not taste like water... it is a nice tomato "essence" for lack of a better word.  But, I'm confused as to whether you are talking about tossing the purged clear liquid or the actual puree in which tomatoes are sometimes canned.

I never toss the purged liquid, I either add it to my bottle of V8 in the fridge or, as my pasta is cooking for dinner, I warm it and then put the cooked pasta into the warm "essence" then stir and let the pasta soak off the heat.  It picks up a nice tomato flavor... then I add my sauce.        Gives it more depth of flavor... and not just for a tomato-based pasta dish.  I've done the same for a white sauce, with excellent results!

~sd

[goosen1]

You know.. The thought about straining the crushed tomatoes from the last few posts is an idea.... What do you have to think about if I drained the 28oz can for a hour or two, take the remaining liquid and reduce it at least by half and mix it back in with the tomatoes like Za guy said.. Do you think it would intensify the flavor too much for the pizza? Or do you think it's not worth experimenting with?

Goose

[mmarston]

If you freeze sauce you'll find additional water content when it's defrosted. This will require more straining and what you get is pretty much just water at this point.
I believe this is a result of the cells breaking down when the tomatoes are frozen.

Michael

[worldtravelers]

My solution is to use turkey pepperoni and sausage. Can't really tell and the fat/calories are reduced.

I can tolerate turkey sausage links with breakfast, but I have yet to find a turkey pepperoni that can come close to a good pepperoni. 

[DaveH]

My turkey sausage recipe is posted under toppings. I enjoy making my own. I normally use Hormel turkey pepperoni. No one has complained yet.

[Pete-zza]

When my emails to Giordano’s on the nutritional information went unanswered, I picked up the phone and started calling. I finally reached someone in the marketing department who emailed me some pdf documents with the nutritional information for three of Giordano’s most popular deep-dish pizzas. I have copied and pasted the information below. I am not sure how helpful the information will be in divining the ingredients and amounts used, but at least we now have that information however we choose to use it. The email I received says that the three pizzas are the only ones that have been submitted for analysis.

SMALL CHEESE STUFFED PIZZA ANALYSIS
Moisture 44.2%
Protein (N X 6.25) 12.6%
Fat 12.4%
Ash 1.97%
Saturated Fat 7.2%
Carbohydrates 28.8%
Total Calories 277/100g
Calories from Fat 112/100g
Cholesterol 22mg/100g
Dietary Fiber 2.2%
Sugar 4.7%
Sodium 480mg/100g
Calcium 274mg/100g
Iron 0.68mg/100g
Vitamin A 320 IU/100g
Vitamin B 1.9mg/ 100g

SMALL CHEESE STUFFED PIZZA NUTRITIONAL FACTS
Serving Size: 7 oz. (198g)
Servings Per Contained: 6
AMOUNT PER SERVING
CALORIES 550
CALORIES FROM FAT 220
__________________________________________________________________
% DAILY VALUES*
TOTAL FAT 25g 38%
SATURATED FAT 14g 70%
CHOLESTEROL 44mg 15%
SODIUM 950mg 40%
TOTAL CARBOHYDRATES 57g 19%
DIETARY FIBER 4g 16%
SUGAR 9g
PROTEIN 25g
_________________________________________________________________
VITAMIN A: 12%
VITAMIN C: 6%
CALCIUM: 54%
IRON: 7%

SMALL SPINACH STUFFED PIZZA ANALYSIS
Moisture 48.3%
Protein (N X 6.25) 11.9%
Fat 10.7%
Ash 1.91%
Saturated Fat 6.0%
Carbohydrates 27.2%
Total Calories 253/100g
Calories from Fat 96/100g
Cholesterol 21mg/100g
Dietary Fiber 2.9%
Sugar 3.9%
Sodium 460mg/100g
Calcium 240mg/100g
Iron 0.96mg/100g
Vitamin A 450 IU/100g
Vitamin B 3.1mg/ 100g

SMALL SPINACH STUFED PIZZA NUTRITIONAL FACTS
Serving Size: 7 oz. (198g)
Servings Per Contained: 6
AMOUNT PER SERVING
CALORIES 500
CALORIES FROM FAT 190
__________________________________________________________________
% DAILY VALUES*
TOTAL FAT 21g 32%
SATURATED FAT 12g 60%
CHOLESTEROL 42mg 14%
SODIUM 910mg 38%
TOTAL CARBOHYDRATES 54g 18%
DIETARY FIBER 6g 24%
SUGAR 8g
PROTEIN 24g
_________________________________________________________________
VITAMIN A: 17%
VITAMIN C: 10%
CALCIUM: 47%
IRON: 10%

SMALL VEGETERIAN STUFFED PIZZA ANALYSIS
Moisture 50.7%
Protein (N X 6.25) 10.4%
Fat 9.4%
Ash 1.55%
Saturated Fat 5.2%
Carbohydrates 27.9%
Total Calories 238/100g
Calories from Fat 85/100g
Cholesterol 20mg/100g
Dietary Fiber 2.8%
Sugar 4.2%
Sodium 390mg/100g
Calcium 186mg/100g
Iron 0.79mg/100g
Vitamin A 380 IU/100g
Vitamin B 2.6mg/ 100g

SMALL VEGETARIAN STUFED PIZZA NUTRITIONAL FACTS
Serving Size: 7 oz. (198g)
Servings Per Contained: 6
AMOUNT PER SERVING
CALORIES 470
CALORIES FROM FAT 170
__________________________________________________________________
% DAILY VALUES*
TOTAL FAT 19g 29%
SATURATED FAT 10g 50%
CHOLESTEROL 40mg 13%
SODIUM 770mg 32%
TOTAL CARBOHYDRATES 55g 18%
DIETARY FIBER 6g 24%
SUGAR 8g
PROTEIN 21g
_________________________________________________________________
VITAMIN A: 15%
VITAMIN C: 8%
CALCIUM: 37%
IRON: 9%

To keep all of the Giordano's pizza information in one place, I have copied and pasted the information from one of the earlier replies (Reply 23) in this thread:

Cheese Stuffed Pizza
 
Ingredients:  Crust (Flour, water, vegetable oil, yeast, salt, spices), Sauce (Tomatoes, Tomato Puree, salt, spices, calcium chloride), Mozzarella Cheese (Pasteurized whole and skim milk, cheese cultures, salt, enzymes), Parmesan Cheese (Pasteurized part skim milk, cheese cultures, salt, powdered cellulose)
 
Spinach Stuffed Pizza
 
Ingredients:  Crust (Flour, water, vegetable oil, olive, yeast, salt, spices), Sauce (Tomatoes, Tomato Puree, salt, spices, calcium chloride), Mozzarella Cheese (Pasteurized whole and skim milk, cheese cultures, salt, enzymes), Parmesan Cheese (Pasteurized part skim milk, cheese cultures, salt, powdered cellulose), Spinach.
 
Veggie Stuffed Pizza
 
Ingredients:  Crust (Flour, water, vegetable oil, yeast, salt, spices), Sauce (Tomatoes, Tomato Puree, salt, spices, calcium chloride), Mozzarella Cheese (Pasteurized whole and skim milk, cheese cultures, salt, enzymes),  Parmesan Cheese (Pasteurized part skim milk, cheese cultures, salt, powdered cellulose), Onions, Green Pepper, Mushrooms.

Also, according to buzz in Reply 61 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5674.msg52447.html#msg52447), Giordano's apparently uses a Stella mozzarella cheese blend (shredded) and an Escalon-based sauce. Unless the Giordano's ingredients list is out of date, or they are using a tomato blend, I am skeptical of the use of Escalon tomatoes alone because, to the best of my knowledge, Escalon does not add calcium chloride to their tomatoes. The cheese is indeed shredded, as can be seen, as well as the steps for preparing the Giordano's pies, in the Travel Channel video featuring Giordano's at http://www.travelchannel.com/Video_&_Photos/Video_Detail?playerId=1388782660&categoryId=138164828&lineupId=1387552927. Some years ago, the president of Giordano's indicated that they bought their cheeses from Stella Foods, as noted in this article: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4208/is_19950214/ai_n10185145.

Peter

[Za guy]

I hate to say it, but the Giordano's pizza making video seems to be gone from their site!  This was the link earlier in this thread, and it's gone now:

http://travel.discovery.com/beyond/player.html?playerId=203712212&categoryId=210013703&lineupId=18590644&titleId=18579105

I just went back to view it because I made my next two test pies on Sunday, and wanted to see them lay out the dough in the pan again.  I had trouble again with the dough sliding down the side a bit and stuff leaked out and burned again on the outside of the crust.  Maybe I need to cut back on the water (or is it the oil?) so the dough is not so slippery.  Maybe I oiled the pans too much.  I bet that's it.

I made two ten inch pies, and some aspects worked very well.  The straight-sided pans were fine, because I saw how Giordano's flip the pies out using a pan holder and a spatula nearby to "catch" the side of the pie that lifts out.  No crash landing on the floor, so that part worked great.  The sauce was much nicer too this time.  I briefly strained the 6in1 tomatoes and got over a cup of liquid from each one.  I reduced that until it was gloppy and turned it back into the sauce.  I also deleted any Oregano from the sauce in favor of only using fresh Basil.  And I deleted sugar in favor of 1 1/2 tsp of honey.  It was very nice, not sugary sweet, but a warm and natural kind of sweetness, and with none of the bitterness that comes from Oregano.  I decided Oregano is better in Mexican food, like Red or Green Chile sauce.  Salt and minced Garlic were the only other things in the sauce, it was great.  Not sure if it tastes anything like Giordano's though, as I have to admit I forget the flavor there!  Oh yeah, and I scaled up the latest Buzz dough formulation in this thread by 1/3 so it would work in my 10" pans.

BTW, what is the trick for rolling out dough?  So far, I seem to prefer just plopping the dough ball in the pan and pushing it out to the sides (and then up the sides) by hand.  But since I also oil the pan pretty well so as not to have the pie stick (and end up with a bunch of glop on the floor when I try to flip it out), the dough gets even slippier than if I rolled it out and draped it over the pan.  But when I roll it out, it's never very round and it also stops spreading, so then I try to stretch it by sort of hanging it by hand and rotating it.  But then I get some thin spots that then turn into holes.  I guess you can sort of patch it together in the pan and it works out once it bakes.  But it's kind of frustrating.  Any tips?

za guy

[Pete-zza]

Jim,

The reason I posted the link to the Giodano's video in my last post was because the earlier link no longer worked. The one I posted yesterday worked, but not today. I think the best way to find the Giordano's video is to go to this link, http://www.travelchannel.com/ch.Video_%26_Photos.artTravelIdeasFmt?vgnextfmt=artTravelIdeasFmt?videoRef=702ab1f0e73efeece45c5811af3039862b38660e, and click on "Chicago" in the "destination" pull-down menu at the bottom of the page. You should then see a list of videos. If you scroll down to the bottom of the list, you should find the Giordano's video--at least for today. When you see the video again, you will see that the dough is a sheeted dough, as buzz has noted, and that the pan into which the skin is deposited is coated with a semi-soft fat, which may be a softened margarine or butter or possibly a blend. You may have to pause the video to see the fat in the pan.

Did you record how much sauce, either by weight or by volume, you used for your 10" pies? Also, if you have the label for the 6-in-1s, would you mind telling me how much sugar there is in a serving size and what that serving size is? I don't have any 6-in-1s on hand to look for myself. In looking at the Giordano's nutrition data, I see a lot of sugar. It seems to be more than what is naturally present in tomatoes like the 6-in-1s, yet if the sugar was buried in the "spices" somewhere, it would still seem to be used in small quantities. There is no sugar in the mozzarella cheeses, the Parmesan cheese, the oil or other fat used in the dough, or the fat used to grease the pan, and there is only a small amount of natural sugar present in the flour. A total of fifty four grams of total sugar in the Giordano's nutrition data (9 grams times 6 servings) translates into about 4 1/2 tablespoons of table sugar. Maybe they are using another form of sugar somewhere. Or possibly their nutrition data is flawed.

Peter

[Za guy]

Hi Pete,

That did the trick.  That's the only way to see the beloved Giordano's video now, and it works just fine.  It's clear to me that I need more dough to start with.  Foodblogger has a great Youtube video showing his deep-dish techniques, and I saw from there how he gets the dough ball into a rounder starting blob than I have done prior to either rolling it or spreading it.  So I will do that as well as scale up my dough recipe a tad more.  Then to get it to drape over the pan and to enable me to pinch the upper crust together way up high like in the video, I need to have surplus of dough.  Why not, as it seems to be the least expensive ingredient anyway?  I scaled up 1/3 and used 2 cups of flour for the dough ball for a 10" pan, but I still didn't feel like I could roll it out enough to look anything like how they did it in the video.

I intended to use one full 28 oz can of 6-in1 ground tomatoes per pie.  But I also didn't want a "sauce pie" like I made last time, so eyeballing it, I left about 1/4 of a can of strained sauce in the can for each pie.  Since there was already about 3/4 cup of water removed, that was probably about 1/3 of the sauce that was left out.  That would mean I reserved about 7/8 of a cup of the strained sauce for later use, and used only about 1 7/8 cup per 10" pie.  I like sauce though, and since so much moisture was removed, I think I could have used more or maybe all of it and it would have been fine.  I didn't want the sauce to overrun the crust and leak so much again though, so I sort of skimped when applying it this time.  The time before, I think I used slighly over two cans of unstrained sauce on one 14" pie, and I drowned it.  I was very liberal in reinterpreting all the recipes I read here, and at least have learned a lot about how to do the sauce by now!

OK, here's what the 6-in1 can says about sugars:


Nutrition Facts:

Serving size:  1/2 cup (110g);
Servings per container:  about 7;
Calories:  30  Calories from fat:  0!  (A good reason to splurge when applying the sauce, imo);
etc
etc
etc;
Total Carbohydrate:  6g;
Dietary Fiber:  2g;
Sugars:  4g;
Protein 2g

Ingredients:  Vine-ripened Fresh Unpeeled Ground Tomatoes, Extra Heavy Tomato Puree and Salt

I'm not gonna try to do the math right now, so let me know how much sugar you think Giordan's is adding to their sauce.  Since 6-in-1's only have about 28g per 28oz can, they must be adding quite a bit to get 9g per serving.  Or maybe the flour is metabolized into sugar, and they are accounting for it that way.  I have no clue whether the nutrition data works that way though.  Is their sauce really sweet tasting?  I only added about 2 tsp of honey per 28 oz can, and it was very tasty.  Maybe restaurants pile on lots of calories with added sugars and such to get the killer taste, but cooking at home I am typically uncomfortable cooking that way.

Good luck figuring this stuff out!

Jim

Jim,

The reason I posted the link to the Giodano's video in my last post was because the earlier link no longer worked. The one I posted yesterday worked, but not today. I think the best way to find the Giordano's video is to go to this link, http://www.travelchannel.com/ch.Video_%26_Photos.artTravelIdeasFmt?vgnextfmt=artTravelIdeasFmt?videoRef=702ab1f0e73efeece45c5811af3039862b38660e, and click on "Chicago" in the "destination" pull-down menu at the bottom of the page. You should then see a list of videos. If you scroll down to the bottom of the list, you should find the Giordano's video--at least for today. When you see the video again, you will see that the dough is a sheeted dough, as buzz has noted, and that the pan into which the skin is deposited is coated with a semi-soft fat, which may be a softened margarine or butter or possibly a blend. You may have to pause the video to see the fat in the pan.

Did you record how much sauce, either by weight or by volume, you used for your 10" pies? Also, if you have the label for the 6-in-1s, would you mind telling me how much sugar there is in a serving size and what that serving size is? I don't have any 6-in-1s on hand to look for myself. In looking at the Giordano's nutrition data, I see a lot of sugar. It seems to be more than what is naturally present in tomatoes like the 6-in-1s, yet if the sugar was buried in the "spices" somewhere, it would still seem to be used in small quantities. There is no sugar in the mozzarella cheeses, the Parmesan cheese, the oil or other fat used in the dough, or the fat used to grease the pan, and there is only a small amount of natural sugar present in the flour. A total of fifty four grams of total sugar in the Giordano's nutrition data (9 grams times 6 servings) translates into about 4 1/2 tablespoons of table sugar. Maybe they are using another form of sugar somewhere. Or possibly their nutrition data is flawed.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

I'm not gonna try to do the math right now, so let me know how much sugar you think Giordano's is adding to their sauce.  Since 6-in-1's only have about 28g per 28oz can, they must be adding quite a bit to get 9g per serving.  Or maybe the flour is metabolized into sugar, and they are accounting for it that way.  I have no clue whether the nutrition data works that way though.  Is their sauce really sweet tasting?  I only added about 2 tsp of honey per 28 oz can, and it was very tasty.  Maybe restaurants pile on lots of calories with added sugars and such to get the killer taste, but cooking at home I am typically uncomfortable cooking that way.

Jim,

Thank you for the 6-in-1 data. After I posted, I found an old label for the Stanislaus Tomato Magic, which is the Stanislaus counterpart to the 6-in-1s. The label lists more sugar per can (48 grams) than a can of 6-in-1s. I don't think that Giordano's is using the Tomato Magic because the Giordano's ingredients list for the sauce does not list citric acid, which is present in the Tomato Magic but not in the 6-in-1s. As noted in my last post, I am not even certain that Giordano's is using the 6-in-1s, as buzz contends. The Giordano's ingredients list for the sauce lists calcium chloride. That is an ingredient that is used to keep the tomato cell walls from breaking down and producing mushy tomatoes. It is used most commonly with whole canned tomatoes, and apparently allows canners to use fewer tomatoes per can. 

In my number crunching, I assumed that about 1 1/2 cups of sauce (basically crushed tomatoes with puree) would be sufficient for a 10" deep-dish pizza. Since that wouldn't come anywhere close to bridging the sugar gap in the Giordano's nutrition information, and since the Giordano's ingredients list does not specify any sugar, after I posted yesterday I decided to research the labeling requirements specified by the FDA. One of the things that I learned is that the term "spices" does not include sugar. So, there should be no sugar buried in "spices". Also, if sugar is added to a product, unless it falls below a very small threshhold it has to be specified. Giordano's does not specify any sugar in its ingredients list. However, I found that "sugar" can include lactose, which is a milk sugar present in mozzarella cheese, at about 0.8 ounces per serving. I estimate that a Giordano's 10" cheese deep-dish pizza uses around 13 ounces of mozzarella cheese (a combination of part-skim low-moisture and whole-milk low-moisture). There is still a sugar gap, but much smaller. No doubt there are sugars of caramelization, and that may be the factor that closes the gap even further. There is also a small amount of natural sugars in flour, but only a few grams for an amount of flour that might be used in a typical Giordano's 10" dough. If nothing else, I am learning things I never knew before.

At some point, I may have to do some weighing of sauce to see how much is needed to make a typical 10" Giordano's deep-dish cheese pizza. I'd be surprised if Giordano's is straining their canned tomatoes. One way to get around that is to add tomato paste, which may not have to be identified as such in their ingredients list. However, all of the canned tomato pastes I have looked at in the supermarket do not show any calcium clhloride as an ingredient. That leads me to believe that Giordano's is using a combination of an Escalon product and a tomato product using calcium clhloride.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

According to a recent post by member stymie at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6324.msg54790.html#msg54790 (Reply 7), Escalon is the supplier of the tomatoes used by Giordano's. However, that doesn't explain the source of the citric acid, which Escalon does not use, in the sauce ingredients list provided by Giordano's. Maybe Giordano's is combining the Escalon tomatoes with another tomato that has citric acid. Another possibility, I suppose, is that the Giordano's ingredients list is not up to date.

Peter

[stymie]

Pete,

There is also the possibality that Escalon is sending them the Bontá Crushed Tomatoes or maybe a blend of products such as 6 in 1 and Bontá. If I remember right, on the back of the Bontá label the only difference from 6 in 1 is it shows citric acid as an ingredient.

John

[Pete-zza]

John,

I misspoke in my last post. I meant to say calcium chloride rather than citric acid. To recapitulate, the ingredients for the Giordano's sauce are as follows:

Sauce (Tomatoes, Tomato Puree, salt, spices, calcium chloride)

It could be that the Escalon tomatoes are combined with other tomatoes that have the calcium chloride, which is very commonly used with canned tomatoes. I am surprised that the Bonta tomatoes contain citric acid. I don't have a Bonta label but, not long ago, I asked for and received the nutrition data for some of the Bonta and Bella Rosa puree products and did not see any reference to either citric acid or calcium chloride, although it is possible that they are not required to list same in the nutrition data. I had also read an article where an Escalon spokesman was pretty clear about their products not having citric acid in them. Maybe things changed since that article. If you, or any other member, has a Bonta label, I'd be curious to know what ingredients are listed on the label.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Following up on my last post, I found this at the Escalon website:

Citric Acid – Escalon produces a complete line of tomato products without the addition of citric acid. Citric acid is an acidifying agent used by manufacturers to lower the pH of incoming tomatoes, which allows them to run their lines faster. However, it can impart a noticeably bitter taste on the finished product and is never added to any of the Escalon-branded items.

As noted above, if Giordano's ingredients list is to be believed, they may well be combining one of the Escalon puree products with another tomato product with the calcium chloride. From this excerpt from the Escalon website, it does not appear that their plum tomatoes include calcium chloride either:

Whole Peeled Pear Tomatoes in Juice with Fresh Basil
Every can of Cristoforo Colombo Whole Peeled Pear Tomatoes in Juice with Fresh Basil bursts with freshness and authentic Italian flavor – we pack our plum tomatoes in their own juice and add a touch of salt and fresh basil – we do NOT add citric acid or calcium chloride.

Peter

[BTB]

I am a big 6-in-1 fan and order it regularly.  It's so easy to do so and arrives by UPS in a week or so.  I've tried other good brands (Red Pack, etc.) from some great Italian Deli's that I get some great sausage from, but my pizza eaters all tell me " . . . you didn't use 6-in-1, did you?"  They, too, love 6-in-1 and don't like subsitutes. 

When we tried the Giordano's thin and stuffed pizzas a short while ago (reported on above), I remember that it had some fairly good sauce, but we definitely said to each other, " . . . not as good as 6 in 1, though."  My taste buds tell me it was not the famous Escalon 6-in-1 product.  Just an opinion, though.

[stymie]

Peter,

Looks like I misspoke also. I thought a friend of mine had a can of the Bontá at his shop that I had seen the citric acid as an ingredient on. I stopped by tonight and seen it was a can of Primo Gusto from GFS. Here's the kicker on that though. He tells me (and he put a call into his Escalon rep to make sure) that the guy from Escalon gave him that as a sample and said that they package it for GFS. He left the rep a message, so when he gets an answer I can let you know.

John

[Witt]

I started to read through this thread and realized that I wasn't going to be directions on the 'how to' of a 14 inch.  Can anyone provide me the details....or if not, the most recent/updated recipe for the Giordano's stuffed pizza..as I've eaten it years ago..but haven't made one yet.  A dummys guide (one post) would be greatly appreciated if possible..(I have 6n1 sauce and the other basics, but the dough would surely be more complicated with the roof, etc)

Thanks.

[BDoggPizza]

Wow i cant believe my thread has skyrocketed into being very popular. I just made those pizza's with a lot of passion, and it paid off, you can tell by looking at the pictures.

thanks everyone

Does this recipe include the dough for the "top crust"?

[ggtennis]

Hi all!

I'm a newbie here.  Been reading the threads and want to thank all posters for the useful information.  This is a great resource!  I too would love to see a "Giordanos For Dummies" post with the latest recipe.  And I would like it to be as basic as possible.

I would also like to know more about the thin layer of top crust as shown in the travel channel video.  I don't see much discussion on this.  Do the dough recipes account for this?  Seems that more may be needed.  Also how thin is this layer compared to the bottom crust?

Just as a point of reference it would be nice to know how much cheese is typically used for a basic cheese pizza.

Thanks so much!

[goosen1]

Hi all!

I'm a newbie here.  Been reading the threads and want to thank all posters for the useful information.  This is a great resource!  I too would love to see a "Giordanos For Dummies" post with the latest recipe.  And I would like it to be as basic as possible.

I would also like to know more about the thin layer of top crust as shown in the travel channel video.  I don't see much discussion on this.  Do the dough recipes account for this?  Seems that more may be needed.  Also how thin is this layer compared to the bottom crust?

Just as a point of reference it would be nice to know how much cheese is typically used for a basic cheese pizza.

Thanks so much!

Here is a recipe and directions from another post in this forum for Giordano's stuffed crust. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1478.msg14542.html#msg14542 

Goose