Author Topic: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!  (Read 74313 times)

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Offline Villa Roma

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Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #100 on: July 05, 2009, 08:35:41 AM »
It depends on the flour. The finer it's milled generally the higher hydration you can get from it. Right now I'm using 50/50 KA WW and Gold Medal WW.

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Offline G-Force

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Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #101 on: July 05, 2009, 02:07:33 PM »
At the risk of stating the obvious, because I am using KAWW and it is a pretty fine flour, I can afford to shoot for 100% hydration and see what happens. 

I would like to get your opinion on how to attack a dough in the middle of the week.  I work during the week and generally pizza is a weekend treat.  I would enjoy eating a pizza sometime during the work week.  Would you suggest making the dough in the morning and letting it ferment during the day on the counter, making it in the evening put it in the fridge till the next night, some kind of hybrid, or something monumental that I haven't even thought of?  Any advice is greatly appreciated. 
I keep trying till the mixer starts to smoke

Offline Villa Roma

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Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #102 on: July 05, 2009, 11:53:39 PM »
I usually make a preferment the day before and add it to the dough the following night. Then I refer the dough for the next day. You could do the same and then the day of your pizza bake remove the dough from the refer and put it in an ice chest to slowly come to room temp. It should be ready when you come home from work.

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Offline G-Force

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Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #103 on: July 06, 2009, 09:21:13 PM »
Great!  Thanks for the pointers.  I will let you know how it turns out. 
I keep trying till the mixer starts to smoke

Offline bruce

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Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #104 on: July 07, 2009, 08:08:51 PM »
WW pizza crust is like the holy grail for me. I'm trying to fallow your recipe but am unclear of a few things. The recipe is as fallows:

Quote
400 gm Gold Medal stone ground whole wheat flour (100%)
200 gm water (50%)
200 gm cold milk (50%)
8 gm honey (2%)
8 gm sea salt (2%)
8 gm lite olive oil (2%)
1/8 tsp IDY
small pinch ascorbic acid (vitamin C)

I start this the night before and it's literally a dump and stir. I put the flour in a bowl and dump everything else in and stir it with the end of a long plastic spoon. Let it sit for an hour and stir it again, then just let it sit overnight. In the morning stir it again. About every 3-4 hours give it a stir, at this point you can either refridgerate it or toss it in a mixer or processor to really develop the glutenus to the maximus. You can also scale it and use it with just the hand mixing.
Now for the questions:

Do I let it sit overnight on the counter or in the refrigerator? When stirring, is that by hand, in a KA and how much at each stage? When you say "scale it" do you mean increase or decrease amounts as needed? Do you still use vitamin C? Did you ever make that video you were talking about? If so, could you post the link?

Sorry for all the questions at once but I really don't have that much experience with dough and could use all the help I can get.

Thanks,
Bruce.

PS. Forgot to mention I replaced the IDY with sourdough starter. (about 1/4 cup)
« Last Edit: July 07, 2009, 09:40:36 PM by bruce »

Offline Villa Roma

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Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #105 on: July 09, 2009, 11:21:54 AM »
Bruce....If you go here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5682.msg49850.html#msg49850
and follow the video link it shows you how to make the dough with just a screwdriver and a plastic bowl.

Scale simply means dividing the dough into pizza sized dough balls. In my case I made 9" pizzas so I scaled the dough to 185 grams for each pizza.

Yes I still use the vitamin C.

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Offline bruce

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Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #106 on: July 09, 2009, 07:08:16 PM »
Thanks for the reply :) I will check out the video soon and see what I was doing wrong. My dough simply fell apart when handling it to stretch it out.

Bruce.

Offline Villa Roma

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Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #107 on: July 14, 2009, 11:10:27 AM »
The latest whole grainers.

Offline johnrbek

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Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #108 on: August 19, 2009, 05:17:19 PM »
Villa Roma,

Awesome work you've done here...  Thank you for all of your effort!

Question:  How necessary do you think the milk, sugar (honey, etc), and oil are to the recipe?  A typical neapolitan dough has neither...  You mentioned hydration and several other points as key factors and I've seen your mixing technique on youtube.. ,but I have seen anyone ask this question...  Is it possible that the addition of a significant amount of milk to recipe has an effect on the airiness of the dough?  Have you tried a non-milk recipe.. with just water at the hydration levels you call for?

I'd like to stay away from milk in the recipe unless I have too and since I'm working with a brick oven at higher temps, I'd like to stay away from sugar & oil, which tend to char the crust more at higher temps..

Thanks for clarifying...

JB

Offline Villa Roma

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Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #109 on: August 21, 2009, 02:34:30 AM »
johnrbek.....I've utterly weaned my whole grain pizza dough off the milk. Here's my latest recipe. You can omit the oil and sugar if you like.

Whole wheat flour 100%
Water 85-90%
Yeast 1/64 tsp per 100 grams of WW flour
Olive oil 2%
Sugar 1%
Salt 2%

      Villa Roma
« Last Edit: August 21, 2009, 02:36:07 AM by Villa Roma »


Offline DOC Opa

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Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #110 on: August 21, 2009, 08:42:49 AM »
Villa Roma,

Did you leave out the ascorbic acid (vitamin C) on purpose in your last recipe?
Also I would be interested in seeing you shaping the dough in a video.  Just about finished with my brick oven and am curious on the technique of shaping WW pizza dough with those hydrations.

Thanks,

Mark

Offline johnrbek

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Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #111 on: August 21, 2009, 02:25:27 PM »
Villa Roma,

Ha ha.. that's funny.. before I received your reply, yesterday,  I gave it a go on my own..  I originally tried the 95% water (with 55% Whole Foods Organic Whole Wheat & 45% Organic Spelt), .1% IDY (.7 grams for the entire batch), and 2.5% salt.   I sized each boule at roughly 350 grams this time around.. The mix was more like a Poolish than a dough and I opted to used it for that..  I fermented this mix overnight. The original plan was 4 pizzas at those %'s, but I up mixed to an 85% hydration and added another pizza in the process..  I shaped all my boules at this time (about 4 hours prior to baking/room temp 76-77F).. no additional yeast, just a bit more flour, water, and salt to get to 85% hydration.  This proved a bit more manageable, but still required being VERY gentle and quick.. I had to use LOTS of bench flour and be quick about loading toppings while on the peal.. Always do a shake test of the peal as each topping was adding to ensure it wasn't sticking.. As it turned out, I didn't have any major mishaps and we had a thoroughly enjoyable evening with the resulting pizzas.   The high hydration mix is the ticket as you've clearly demonstrated!   

Mark,

In addition to my comments above... I didn't use any Ascorbic acid either.. I'd read that Villa Roma abandoned that some time back anyway..   From my perspective, I'm coming from a higher heat wood fired oven situation as well.  In fact, prior to getting on this health kick recently with the WW flour, I'd be using Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour which is reknowned for working best in higher temps 750-850... At those temps, no conditioners like olive oil or sugar are necessary.. they're used more in home ovens at lower temps to assist with browning and so on..  What I will say is, I'd start off at the lower end of the spectrum.. 650-700 before attempting to go higher.. I fired my oven early yesterday and then put the door on till I was about ready to bake, I then threw another log on about 15 mins prior to kind of bring it back up a bit..  I think the thing to be careful with is scorching the bottom of your pizza.. I think the bran and other stuff that's not in a white flour has a higher tendency to burn...  The other thing I'd say, besides being careful with the high hydration and loading with toppings/sticking to peel, is, once cooked the WW dough seems to stand up better to a heavier topping load than I typically experience with 00 or AP flour.  It's still very soft and airy coming out but when you hold your slice, it doesn't wanna flop and drop everything as easily.. which is nice...

Anywho.. here's some pics from yesterday...  a chicken pesto/smoked mozz...  :-)

 
« Last Edit: August 22, 2009, 08:47:50 AM by johnrbek »

Offline Villa Roma

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Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #112 on: August 30, 2009, 12:50:53 PM »
I'd walk a mile for a Camal.....an almost 100% whole grain pizza leavened with Camaldoli starter that is.

I made a batch of pizza with whole wheat, course rye and about 15% GM bread flour. I used the BF to counteract the fact that rye has very little gluten.

Here they are:


    Villa Roma
« Last Edit: August 30, 2009, 11:05:00 PM by Villa Roma »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #113 on: August 30, 2009, 01:11:31 PM »
Villa Roma,

Very nice, as usual. I think you may be the first one to report on the use the Camaldoli starter (and possibly any other) for whole grain pizzas. Out of curiosity, how much starter culture/preferment did you use in relation to the formula flour (or formula water or total dough weight if that is what you used)?

Peter

Offline Villa Roma

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Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #114 on: August 30, 2009, 01:38:24 PM »
Villa Roma,

Very nice, as usual. I think you may be the first one to report on the use the Camaldoli starter (and possibly any other) for whole grain pizzas. Out of curiosity, how much starter culture/preferment did you use in relation to the formula flour (or formula water or total dough weight if that is what you used)?

Peter

Peter,

I used 60 grams of the Camaldoli starter hydrated at about 70%. This batch had 800 grams of flour excluding the starter.
I've used the Ischia starter for WW pizza before but this is the first time I used the Camaldoli. It rises slow and steady
even in the refer. I may try 1% sugar next time.

300 gm KA WW flour
300 gm GM WW flour
100 gm course rye flour
100 gm GM bread flour
680 gm water (85%)
60 gm Camadoli starter (7.5%)
16 gm salt (2%)
16 gm olive oil (2%)
pinch ascorbic acid

     Villa Roma
   

Offline bruce

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Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #115 on: September 04, 2009, 04:50:15 PM »
There are some pictures of really nice looking pizzas here! If you don't mind I'd like to add a few of my own. I have tried Villa Roma's recipe a couple of times and didn't get the results I was looking for (most likely something I was or wasn't doing ), so I tried using my regular bread flour method and got what I think are some pretty good results. I mixed the water and yeast, added about 75% of the ww flour and 2 tbles of vital wheat gluten, mixed that in the KA with a dough hook and let it sit for about 1/2 hr (mixer turned off). Then I add the salt and the rest of the ww flour and mix that for about 5 min. Ball it up and in the fridge overnight. It has all the characteristics of my old bread flour recipe and is light and airy on the inside. Btw, Great forum!
« Last Edit: September 04, 2009, 05:18:12 PM by bruce »

Offline dani0100

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Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #116 on: September 08, 2009, 09:56:32 PM »
Hi all-

This is a great thread!  I have also been experimenting with some Whole Wheat flour.  In my case I am using a 100% whole wheat bread flour that is also organic.  At first I tried just using my standard pizza recipe, which is a variation on one of the Papa John's clones that is in the American Pizza forums.  My results were not that great.  The dough was OK -- quite dry and not terribly extensible.  The cooked pizza was very much bread like -- not airy or bubbly at all.  Definitely not a good pizza, in my opinion.

Now I'm experimenting with the very high hydration and a room temperature ferment.  I'm interested to see if this will work out for my, given my flour and the temperature presently in my house (it's very nice right now on the east coast of the US -- low 70's during the day and a bit cooler in the evenings).  What I would really love to find, however, is a recipe that does not require such a long room temperature ferment time.  Ideally, I'd like to make and ball my dough in an hour or less and then just let it sit in the fridge for however long is optimal.  Not sure if that's possible, but I'll keep trying!

Offline Villa Roma

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Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #117 on: September 13, 2009, 12:30:11 PM »
Here's a few from this weeks batch.

     Villa Roma

Offline DOC Opa

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Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #118 on: September 17, 2009, 07:33:38 PM »
Hi,

I'm making a spelt Chicago style stuffed pizza in my regular oven as I type this and was curious if anyone has experimented with or advise me on using spelt in my brick oven pizzas.  I've used one of Villa Roma's wheat recipes with great success.  The recipe did not have the vitamin C in it.

Thanks

Offline Villa Roma

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Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #119 on: October 18, 2009, 09:44:15 AM »
Perhaps you have heard that Terrible Ted Nugent (aka The Motor City Madman) is making a comeback? That's right, check it out here:  http://www.tednugent.com/ To help celebrate this monumental event I crafted a pizza honoring his famous song, Great White Buffalo. These pizzas are made with buffalo mozzarella.

     Villa Roma