Author Topic: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!  (Read 81264 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24053
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #150 on: September 10, 2010, 07:11:11 AM »
Thanks Norma! The BS crust tasted similar to my usual WW crust but was very light, soft, airy and handled extremely well. There was not even a hint of the pudding flavor. I'm going to try the BS pudding in a white flour recipe in the future. So far I've used the following ingredients in pizza:

Sweet potato
Regular potato
Applesauce
Coconut milk
Banana
Coffee
Juice

     Villa Roma

Villa Roma,

Thanks for explaining how your experiment worked out in terms of the crust.  :) Thatís interesting that your butterscotch crust tasted similar to you usual WW crust, but was light, soft and airy.  I am also interested in how the butterscotch pudding will taste in a white flour when you try that.  You sure have tried a lot of ingredients in making your crusts.  Great experiment!  ;D

Norma


Offline Ronzo

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1411
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Leander, TX
  • Beer, Whiskey, Freedom n' Pizza...
    • New Texian Brewery
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #151 on: September 12, 2010, 03:34:25 PM »
Trying this now... just put it in the mixer. Made it with some Shiner Bock.

Ok.... so... this attempt at WWW pizza came out pretty damn good for basically my second serious attempt at it. I did the 90% hydration VR suggested, with the beer in it. Let it slow ferment on the counter for about three days.

The key I discovered is to work directly on the peel (with A LOT of bench flour), and to work super quick because the dough is so friggin wet. When I did that, it came out really good. The flavor was completely different that the first serious attempt. It had depth, and was not cardboard like the first time. Next time I'll remember to take some pictures.
Fuggheddabowdit!

~ Ron

Former NY'er living in Texas
http://newtexianbrew.com - http://pinterest.com/NewTexianBrew

Offline Gino that Bastad

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 23
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #152 on: September 13, 2010, 11:51:45 PM »
Loving this thread.

Offline malvanova

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 126
  • Age: 62
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #153 on: September 22, 2010, 10:56:37 AM »
Hi Villa Roma, question please,  I have a bag of wwf from, con agra mill stone ground medium,as stated on bag, will this be ok to use for ww pizzas, I LOVE WHAT YOU HAVE ACHIEVED, I have wood fired oven I use for bread and pizzas, trying to stay away from white flour as the doc. said :(  I've read this threadand don't know which formula to use, there are many on here , which would you recommend?with the flour I have?

   Thanks         
           
           Phil

Offline Villa Roma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 498
  • Location: Edmond, Ok
  • In search of the ever elusive leopard spots!
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #154 on: September 22, 2010, 06:40:16 PM »
Phil....The Con Agra flour should work fine. I use Gold Medal WW flour that I get at the local Wal Mart. When using WW flour pay particular attention to the use by date and store the flour in the refer or the freezer.

Here's my basic go to recipe (in bakers percents):

WW Flour 100%
Water 85%
Sugar 2%
Salt 2%
Oil 2%
IDY 1/16 tsp per 100 gm of flour

    Villa Roma

Offline malvanova

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 126
  • Age: 62
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #155 on: September 23, 2010, 11:34:54 PM »
Hi; VR will it be ok to use Camondoli or Ischia starters? in what % do you suggest.

  thanks
\   Phil

Offline Villa Roma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 498
  • Location: Edmond, Ok
  • In search of the ever elusive leopard spots!
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #156 on: September 23, 2010, 11:52:13 PM »
Hi; VR will it be ok to use Camondoli or Ischia starters? in what % do you suggest.

  thanks
\   Phil

If you wish to use one of the Italian starters I'd use 5% of the flour weight or better yet use both adding a good pinch of yeast as insurance.

     Villa Roma

Offline Paparoni

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 9
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #157 on: January 06, 2011, 05:45:05 PM »
What's up DOC? I don't have a really standard recipe as I like to experiment with different ingredients and I don't know if WW would do well in a WFO. If I had to pick a recipe I'd go with this one:

800gm GM WW flour
720 gm water (90%)
20 gm salt (2.5%)
16 gm lite olive oil (2%)
1/4 tsp dry instant yeast

Case in point, I used sweet potato and cider vinegar in this batch. It came out a little heavy but it was real easy to stretch.

    How sweet it is! Villa Roma

Hi Villa Roma,

Your 100% WW pizza success is inspiring! I'm pretty new to pizza dough making, but was able to follow your screwdriver dough making video and arrive at the best pizza crust I've ever cooked myself. I gather from your other posts in this thread that you don't usually use that method to make your dough, so I was hoping you could expand on the steps between dumping ingredients in a bowl and putting toppings on your finished dough. Do you use a KA mixer? If so, how long/what speed, and how many times? Do you refrigerate it while fermenting or leave it out, and for how long? Any details you could provide would be much appreciated!

Thanks,

Luke


Offline Villa Roma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 498
  • Location: Edmond, Ok
  • In search of the ever elusive leopard spots!
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #158 on: January 07, 2011, 08:21:51 AM »
Luke,

Welcome to the wonderful world of whole grains! As luck may have it, I'm currently working on a new and exciting WW pizza crust recipe. Barring any unforeseen circumstances I should be able to bang off a test batch this weekend and if all goes well I'll detail my findings here.

I use a KitchenAid K5 mixer with the outlaw spiral hook  >:D and let my dough rise at room temperature with a few stretch and folds thrown in for good measure. Stay tuned for the gory details.

     Villa Roma


Offline Paparoni

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 9
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #159 on: January 07, 2011, 11:05:07 AM »
Good luck in the lab! I eagerly await your results.

Luke

Offline Villa Roma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 498
  • Location: Edmond, Ok
  • In search of the ever elusive leopard spots!
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #160 on: January 09, 2011, 09:19:18 PM »
Here's my latest whole grain pizza crust recipe. I lowered the hydration and used a 12 hour room temp rise.

Preferment:
100 gm Gold Medal WW flour
 82 gm water (82%)
1/64 tsp IDY

Main dough:
Preferment from above
400 gm Gold medal WW flour
328 gm water (82%)
7 gm sea salt (1.4%)
5 gm olive oil (1%)
1/16 tsp IDY

I made the preferment at 6 pm the night before. Just mix all ingredients in a small bowl, stir again in about 30 minutes, cover and let sit for 12 hours at room temp.

Put all ingredients (water first) including the preferment into the mixer bowl. I used a KitchenAid K5SS with a spiral hook. Mix for 1 minute to combine. Let rest for 30 minutes then mix on low for 3 minutes. Turn out onto counter and cover with a large stainless steel bowl. Perform a stretch and fold every 3 hours. Scale and ball dough at 10 hours, let rise about 2 hours and cook at 700 degrees for 3 minutes in the LBE. Use 180 gm of dough to make a 10" pizza. Recipe makes 5 pizzas.

    Villa Roma
« Last Edit: January 10, 2011, 08:05:42 AM by Villa Roma »

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24053
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #161 on: January 09, 2011, 09:42:44 PM »
Villa Roma,

Your pizza is very tasty looking!  :)  I can only imagine how that tasted.  Great job!

Norma

Offline barryvabeach

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 688
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #162 on: January 12, 2011, 08:26:50 PM »
Villa,  I don't want to be a pest, and I am trying to stay with you. I tried your earlier recipe at 85% and had some issues with it being too sticky to form a pie.  I  want to try your most recent recipe but I have 2  problems.  First, your preferment calls for 1/64 tsp yeast-   I don't have a 1/64 teaspoon measure -  and I tried an online converter, and they rounded 1/64 teaspoon to 0 ounces, so that didn't work.  I went to another one and found  1/64 tsp equals .002 ounces.  Converting to grams, I have  .057 grams.  Now the second problem, I don't want 5 ten inch pies, but would like to start with a 14 inch pie.   Should I divide your recipe by 1.5 ?  I looked at dividing by 2.5 but was worried that as I keep dividing, I will end up with a preferment that has an negative amount of yeast ( just kidding).  You also mentioned stretch and fold.  I did a search and couldn't find any real explanation of that term- can you point me somewhere.   Thanks for you patience.  Barry.


oops, the calculator I used was for ADY not IDY - any suggestions on where to find a calculator?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 07:02:24 AM by barryvabeach »

Offline Villa Roma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 498
  • Location: Edmond, Ok
  • In search of the ever elusive leopard spots!
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #163 on: January 13, 2011, 08:00:24 AM »
barry,

I use 1/64 teaspoon of IDY for every 100 grams of WW flour. To measure such small amounts I employ a set of mini measuring spoons seen here:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5583.0.html

A 14" pizza will be about equivalent to 2-10" pizzas so just take 40% of my recipe as follows:

Preferment:
40 gm Gold Medal WW flour
33 gm water (82%)
1/128 tsp IDY (use half of the 1/64 tsp measure)

Main dough:
Preferment from above
160 gm Gold Medal WW flour
131 gm water (82%)
3 gm sea salt (1.4%)
2 gm olive oil (1%)
1/32 tsp IDY


Here's a link to a video of my stretch and fold technique I placed on youtube:


I spritz my hands and scraper with a fine mister to prevent the dough from sticking then scoop up the dough and throw it holding on to one end, fold and repeat this a few times.

If you want to be a serious player in the pizza game you may want to pick up a set of mini measuring spoons and a scale that will measure down to 1 gram increments then learn how to use bakers percents instead of volume measurements.

Here's a good basic scale for not a lot of money:
http://www.amazon.com/Escali-Primo-Digital-Multifunctional-Chrome/dp/B0007GAWRS/?tag=pizzamaking-20

Mini Measuring Spoons: http://www.amazon.com/Norpro-3080-Mini-Measuring-Spoon/dp/B0009X1P9S/?tag=pizzamaking-20

Order both of the above and get free shipping!

   Villa Roma

Offline barryvabeach

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 688
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #164 on: January 13, 2011, 05:25:35 PM »
Villa,  thanks for the help.  I have an electronic kitchen scale you posted and I use that  for the heavier items, and an electronic jewelry type scale that goes very low for the lighter elements.   I have a small set of measuring spoons that I got for my wife as a joke, because it included a "smidge" which is one of her favorite units of measurement, didn't realize people actually used them for real.   I will review the video and try out the recipe this weekend. I already did the math to find the weights of all the other ingredients at various percentages of your original recipe, but got stuck on the instant yeast. I will  weigh a teaspoon of instant yeast, I can't seem to find a published weight anywhere.   Barry.

PS,  1 teaspoon of instant yeast weighed 3.2 grams -  but my scale won't go low enough to measure 1/64th of that.  The  measuring spoon labelled "nip" on the set listed by Villa is 1/64 of a teaspoon.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 08:00:39 PM by barryvabeach »

Offline Paparoni

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 9
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #165 on: January 13, 2011, 08:01:40 PM »
Hi Villa Roma,

Thanks for the new recipe and detailed instructions. I just mixed up my preferment and will try baking a pizza with it tomorrow night. As for the tiny yeast measurements, is that typical for doughs that ferment 24 hours or longer, or is it specific to these whole wheat recipes? At 1/128th of a teaspoon, it seems like I could make 200 pizzas out of one little packet of yeast that I would have used for a single pizza with my (not very tasty) bread machine pizza dough recipe!

Also, would using too much yeast negatively impact the final product, or just waste yeast? The smallest my current scale measures is 0.1g, which I think may be way too much, based on some tsp-g conversions for yeast that I found online.

Thanks,

Luke

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23361
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #166 on: January 13, 2011, 08:36:54 PM »
As for the tiny yeast measurements, is that typical for doughs that ferment 24 hours or longer, or is it specific to these whole wheat recipes? At 1/128th of a teaspoon, it seems like I could make 200 pizzas out of one little packet of yeast that I would have used for a single pizza with my (not very tasty) bread machine pizza dough recipe!

Luke,

No, using minuscule amounts of yeast is not specific to whole wheat recipes although it does bear a relationship to doughs that are fermented for long periods at room temperature. See, for example, the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.0.html. I think you might get a kick out of reading the series of posts starting at Reply 54 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg78613.html#msg78613.

Peter


Offline Villa Roma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 498
  • Location: Edmond, Ok
  • In search of the ever elusive leopard spots!
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #167 on: January 14, 2011, 08:15:23 AM »
One teaspoon of IDY should weigh 3.11 grams.
Here's how I calculated the weight:

3 packets IDY= 21 gm or 7 gm per packet
each packet is 2.25 tsp
7 gm divided by 2.25= 3.11 gm

You can use more yeast when making your dough but your dough will rise faster and not develop the flavor of a long slow fermented dough. I bought a 3 pack of IDY six months ago and I'm still working on the tail end of my first pack.

    Villa Roma

Offline Paparoni

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 9
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #168 on: January 14, 2011, 09:34:44 AM »

3 packets IDY= 21 gm or 7 gm per packet
each packet is 2.25 tsp
7 gm divided by 2.25= 3.11 gm


That's the same conversion that I'd seen for it. So 1/128th of a tsp = .024g. Looks like I'm going to need a smaller scale (or spoons!)  :)

 I'll check out that smidge spoon you posted about earlier.

Offline Villa Roma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 498
  • Location: Edmond, Ok
  • In search of the ever elusive leopard spots!
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #169 on: January 14, 2011, 01:18:57 PM »
I guess you could say yeast is a lot like Brylcream, a little dab'll do ya!

     Villa Roma

Offline Paparoni

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 9
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #170 on: January 14, 2011, 08:48:37 PM »
Hi Villa Roma,

 I took my first crack at the new recipe (loosely followed) tonight, with mixed results, and I'm eager to try it again, next time approximating your recipe and process more closely (using IDY, in the correct measurements, instead of ADY in eyeballed amount, for example). There are a couple things I won't be able to replicate, though, so i'm wondering if you have any suggestions for adjusting the recipe or process to deal with the following constraints:
  • Oven temp: All I've got is a conventional electric oven, with a maximum temperature setting of 550. Right now I'm also using a fairly thin, cheap pizza stone too, though I hope to replace it soon with a 7/8" cordierite stone. I preheat the stone and oven for a good hour, but I'll still be dealing with a max temp of about 550F. Do I just cook longer, or should I adjust the ratio of ingredients for slower/cooler cooking too?
  • Dough prep: I was home and able to do the folding a couple times this afternoon, but on a work day, I wouldn't be able to tend to it for most of the day. Do you have any "set it and forget it" adjustments to the recipe or previous night's prep for days when you won't be home much before cooking?
  • Flour: I like to cook with whole sprouted wheat flour dough for its improved nutritional profile (this is actually one of the reasons I'm trying to make more of my own pizzas). I can try to perfect my technique with the same kind of flour as in your recipe, and then experiment to see how the sprouted flour alters the results, but if you or anyone else already have experience with this, I'd be interested to hear about it.

Thanks for all your Whole Wheat Wisdom!  :)

Luke



Offline Villa Roma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 498
  • Location: Edmond, Ok
  • In search of the ever elusive leopard spots!
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #171 on: January 15, 2011, 08:05:06 PM »
Luke....You can use your conventional oven but use the broiler to increase the stone temp. You may have to move the stone closer to the broiler element.

Try making the dough without the stretch and folds. It'll probably be fine.

I've never used sprouted wheat flour only rye flour so you're on your own with that but it sounds interesting.

Good luck and post some pictures of your results, Villa Roma

Offline barryvabeach

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 688
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #172 on: January 15, 2011, 08:28:43 PM »
Luke, what were your results?  I have 2 balls of dough going right now ( 1 KAWW and 1 Kroger Brand )  I have followed Villa's recipe pretty precisely so far,  and have done 2 stretch and folds, but will be putting both in the fridge tonight so I won't be cooking till tomorrow -  so far both are pretty sticky and pretty hard to do the stretch and folds without getting a lot of sticking ,  so I am not looking forward to stretching them out to make pies. 

Offline Paparoni

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 9
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #173 on: January 15, 2011, 09:34:34 PM »
Hi Barry,

Mine was on the sticky side too, but easy enough to stretch and fold, with just a little bit stuck to my hands and the board after. It was very easy to form into a pizza shape and didn't stick at all after I put some flour on the peel and on my hands. Unfortunately, it didn't rise all that much either before cooking or in the oven, and came out kind of moist/dense/raw, even after about 10-12 minutes at 550, long enough to fully cook the toppings. Part of the problem may have been the yeast. I was using active dry yeast, and eyeballing the amount. I think I put too much in the preferment, so I barely put any in with the rest of the ingredients in the morning. That should be an easy fix next time though.

Anyway, good luck with yours, and let me know how it turns out.

Offline barryvabeach

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 688
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #174 on: January 16, 2011, 08:08:40 PM »
Luke , and Villa,  thanks for the tips. I made a pair of pizzas tonight -  okay, but not great, though mainly due to heat problems.  I used KAWW for one, and Kroger ( grocery brand ) for the other, just to see how they may be different.   Both were pretty sticky, I couldn't stretch the dough the way I normally would, just kind of held it aloft and let gravity stretch it, then turn.  I put a lot of cornmeal on the peel, put on the first one and loaded it.  I have a bubba keg, which is similar to a BGE,  it was at 600 according to the thermometer, the IR thermometer acted up so the stone ( after 45 minutes) was either 300 degrees, or over the limit of the IR, or somewhere in between.  The first one took 8 minutes. By the time I loaded the second one, the fire had started dying down, so it was barely 500 inside, so I finished it off in the oven.  While the first one looked great, the taste was somewhat off - more rye breadish according to my wife -  that was the store brand WW flour.  The KAWW tasted better, though didn't get as great a taste probably due to the lower heat.  I should be getting a grinder this week, and will be trying out home ground wheat flour.