Author Topic: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!  (Read 83157 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Villa Roma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 498
  • Location: Edmond, Ok
  • In search of the ever elusive leopard spots!
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #175 on: January 17, 2011, 08:53:56 PM »
Here's a WW pizza using 5% malt vinegar. The vinegar slowed the fermentation rate some so next time I'll use a little more yeast.

    Villa Roma


Offline charbo

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 148
  • Location: Northern California
  • Wheat
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #176 on: January 19, 2011, 11:22:37 AM »
VR,

Did the vinegar have any effect on gluten strength?

How did you like the flavor?

I've seen informed opinion that yeast don't like acetic acid, the principal acid in vinegar.

cb

Offline Villa Roma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 498
  • Location: Edmond, Ok
  • In search of the ever elusive leopard spots!
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #177 on: January 19, 2011, 03:26:10 PM »
CB....I used a fairly high amount of vinegar in this dough and noted the following:

The dough seemed more slack and I wound up mixing it for 4 minutes as opposed to 3 minutes for the previous batch without the vinegar.

The dough was a little on the wet and sticky side as it rose.

As stated earlier the yeast activity was somewhat subdued.

I was trying to get a tart flavor in the finished crust but there was not a big difference.

The gluten development was enhanced but the previous batch handled better and was more relaxed. Perhaps a longer rise time or more yeast could prove to be the equalizer.

I picked up a bag of rye flour today and will use it in my next batch. It adds a nice twang to the dough at around 10%.

    Villa Roma

Offline gtsum2

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 178
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #178 on: January 19, 2011, 08:04:40 PM »
nice looking pies...as much pizza as I have been eating the past 6 months or so, I should really look into the WW thing!

Offline Paparoni

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 9
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #179 on: January 19, 2011, 08:53:37 PM »
I made another attempt with a variation on Villa Roma's recipe just now, but it's still not coming out quite right. I used the following ingredients from the 14" pizza recipe, but instead of prefermenting part, I combined them all at once around 7 PM last night:

Preferment:
40 gm Gold Medal WW flour
33 gm water (82%)
1/128 tsp IDY (use half of the 1/64 tsp measure)

Main dough:
Preferment from above
160 gm Gold Medal WW flour
131 gm water (82%)
3 gm sea salt (1.4%)
2 gm olive oil (1%)
1/32 tsp IDY
(Note: IDY measurements estimated as best I could with a scale that only has 1g sensitivity)

I put all the ingredients in the KitchenAid mixer bowl and stirred until combined. After 45 min or so, I mixed on lowest setting with the dough hook for about 1 minute, then covered and let sit overnight. By 9:00 AM this morning, the dough had about doubled in size. I mixed it on low with the hook for another minute, then covered and set aside again. It doubled again, by about 2 PM, so I mixed it one last time for a minute on low with the hook, then set it aside covered until about 6 PM. At that point, it had gotten bigger again, but not quite doubled, and still was very sticky.

I had to put a lot of flour on the peel and on my hands and on the dough to be able to work with it without it coming apart from sticking to any surfaces.  Like last time, the dough was very easy to stretch, but it didn't have any resilience. When I stretched it, it would not pull back but rather would just remain slack. If anything, it had a tendency to overstretch. Just picking up one side in anticipation of stretching it would result in it stretching a few inches more. I have a 14" round pizza stone in my oven, so I was careful to stretch the dough into a pie about 13" across. But when I put my toppings on it and went to slide the pizza onto the stone, it stretched a couple more inches and ended up hanging of the edges of the stone!

After cooking the pizza for 10-12 minutes in the 550 degree oven (pre-heated over an hour with the stone), the toppings were well cooked, so I pulled it out. The finished product again seemed a little raw and completely un-risen everywhere except the thicker crust around the edge. Picking up the small slices required two hands, because the crust was completely limp everywhere except for the edge.

Does anyone have any thoughts on why my dough is coming out completely un-resilient and not rising or crisping up much when cooked? I've got a few (un-educated) guesses:
  • too much hydration
  • too much/not enough mixing/stretching/folding
  • consequence of using sprouted wheat flour (lower gluten content?)

My next steps will be to try to experiment on the factors I've identified above. I'd be glad to take a shortcut through this process if anyone can offer some insight, though!

Thanks,

Luke

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2632
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #180 on: January 20, 2011, 03:40:25 AM »
Luke - Your dough was most likely overfermented, being at room temp for nearly 24 hours with the amount of yeast specified. I would try the recipe with the preferment as stated, and proof/bake the same day (mix PF night before, mix final dough in the morning, bake at night).

John
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 10:31:54 AM by dellavecchia »

Offline Paparoni

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 9
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #181 on: January 20, 2011, 10:32:57 AM »
Hi John,

Unfortunately, I tried it that way the last time, with the same result. Maybe in both cases I've got too much yeast due to lack of precision measurements for amounts that small. Is super-stretchable dough a typical consequence of overfermenting?

Thanks,

Luke

Offline charbo

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 148
  • Location: Northern California
  • Wheat
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #182 on: January 20, 2011, 12:12:00 PM »
Luke,

Unless your room was quite cool, the gluten was probably ruined by the long exposure to protease.  You can get away with a long room-temp fermentation using refined flour, but not with WW.

Are you saying that GM WW flour is sprouted?

cb

Offline Paparoni

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 9
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #183 on: January 20, 2011, 12:56:15 PM »
Thanks for the tip. My kitchen was between 60-70 degrees during fermenting (on the cool side overnight, and warm side during the day).

I wasn't using GM WW flour, but a sprouted WW flour from another company.


Offline charbo

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 148
  • Location: Northern California
  • Wheat
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #184 on: January 20, 2011, 06:11:43 PM »
If you are using sprouted flour, I suggest you start a new thread.

Offline barryvabeach

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 714
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #185 on: January 24, 2011, 09:35:17 PM »
Villa,  thanks for your help -  I am getting closer.  I think it takes one or two tries with your latest recipe just to get used to handling dough so wet.  My third try, this weekend, went pretty well.  I used your recipe, though instead of regular wheat flour, I went with a mix of 2/3 hard red spring berries and 1/2 hard white winter berries ( used a grinding mill).  Came out pretty well, though I am thinking of adding a little more salt - I am used to a saltier crust.  Also, I am not actually throwing, or even attempting to stretch the dough.  I didn't use any bench flour when it came time to make the pie, I just started lifting it by one edge and let it stretch by its own weight.  Still had a little shrink back when I got it on the peel, not sure what to do about that.

Offline DannyG

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 132
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #186 on: February 01, 2011, 09:28:19 AM »
Villa, I'm getting ready to give your recipe a try but I'm a little concerned about my ability to handle such a wet dough. Have you done a video showing how you build your pies, from sheeting to sliding on the stone? I would really like to see how you do this.

Offline barryvabeach

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 714
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #187 on: February 01, 2011, 10:04:38 PM »
Danny,  I had some trouble the first few times, but I am getting better, so I can only say try and keep trying.  If you are used to normal stretching out of a pie - it is completely unlike that. For me at least, using Villa's latest recipe ( though I am using home milled wheat 50% red spring, 50% hard winter ) as you start to shape it in a circle, and start to lift one end, the rest of the pie falls away - so it only takes a few seconds to stretch it out - though I feel like I have no control of how it will come out - and if one part hits another  they will stick together. The first time I added maybe a cup of bench flour, maybe a 1/4 cup the second time, now I am not adding more than a tablespoon on my hands.  I do have a wooden peel and I rub that down with flour pretty thoroughly before I put down the pie.

Offline barryvabeach

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 714
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #188 on: February 03, 2011, 09:09:38 PM »
Danny,  hoping you would hear from Villa himself, but while you are waiting here is a video using 85% hydration dough -       it doesn't look like he is using whole wheat, but you can see the shaping is not at all like working with lower hydration doughs.

Offline DannyG

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 132
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #189 on: February 04, 2011, 08:47:33 AM »
That didn't look like fun to me. And look at all the bench flour he had to use. I'm not sure I want to go down this path. Maybe Villa will chime in here.

Offline Villa Roma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 498
  • Location: Edmond, Ok
  • In search of the ever elusive leopard spots!
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #190 on: February 04, 2011, 10:54:53 AM »
That didn't look like fun to me. And look at all the bench flour he had to use. I'm not sure I want to go down this path. Maybe Villa will chime in here.

That guy in the video looks to be using regular white flour or some blend of WW. If you folllow my latest recipe and use the Gold Medal WW flour you'll find that 82% hydration handles very eaisily and stretches better than some white flour recipes.

Preferment:
100 gm Gold Medal WW flour
82 gm water (82%)
1/64 tsp IDY

Main dough:
Preferment from above
400 gm Gold medal WW flour
328 gm water (82%)
7 gm sea salt (1.4%)
5 gm olive oil (1%)
1/16 tsp IDY

I made the preferment at 6 pm the night before. Just mix all ingredients in a small bowl, stir again in about 30 minutes, cover and let sit for 12 hours at room temp.

Put all ingredients (water first) including the preferment into the mixer bowl. I used a KitchenAid K5SS with a spiral hook. Mix for 1 minute to combine. Let rest for 30 minutes then mix on low for 3 minutes. Turn out onto counter and cover with a large stainless steel bowl. Perform a stretch and fold every 3 hours. Scale and ball dough at 10 hours, let rise about 2 hours and cook at 700 degrees for 3 minutes in the LBE. Use 180 gm of dough to make a 10" pizza. Recipe makes 5 pizzas.

    Villa Roma


Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3839
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #191 on: February 05, 2011, 06:06:08 PM »
Danny,  hoping you would hear from Villa himself, but while you are waiting here is a video using 85% hydration dough -       it doesn't look like he is using whole wheat, but you can see the shaping is not at all like working with lower hydration doughs.

Is that video some sort of a joke? That pizza dough doesn't look very appealing, both in texture and the way he handles it. Plus, way too much bench flour.

Sorry, Villa, didn't mean to get this thread off track.

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein


Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3839
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #192 on: February 20, 2011, 12:17:16 AM »
I just watched that video again...

I'm sorry, folks, but it's extremely hard to watch.

Is this the same guy who tried to promote his Sacramento WFOs (sacwoodpusher)?  If that's the case, I will happily pass.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline jcg

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 33
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #193 on: June 13, 2011, 10:01:54 AM »
Villa, have you ever attempted a WW deep dish pizza? Just wondering if your recipe can be modified to work with DD? I'm guessing the amount of oil would have to go up to the 15-20% range, and the water would drop by about the same percent??

jcg

Offline Gator_56

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #194 on: June 13, 2011, 10:14:33 AM »
That guy in the video looks to be using regular white flour or some blend of WW. If you folllow my latest recipe and use the Gold Medal WW flour you'll find that 82% hydration handles very eaisily and stretches better than some white flour recipes.

Preferment:
100 gm Gold Medal WW flour
82 gm water (82%)
1/64 tsp IDY

Main dough:
Preferment from above
400 gm Gold medal WW flour
328 gm water (82%)
7 gm sea salt (1.4%)
5 gm olive oil (1%)
1/16 tsp IDY

I made the preferment at 6 pm the night before. Just mix all ingredients in a small bowl, stir again in about 30 minutes, cover and let sit for 12 hours at room temp.

Put all ingredients (water first) including the preferment into the mixer bowl. I used a KitchenAid K5SS with a spiral hook. Mix for 1 minute to combine. Let rest for 30 minutes then mix on low for 3 minutes. Turn out onto counter and cover with a large stainless steel bowl. Perform a stretch and fold every 3 hours. Scale and ball dough at 10 hours, let rise about 2 hours and cook at 700 degrees for 3 minutes in the LBE. Use 180 gm of dough to make a 10" pizza. Recipe makes 5 pizzas.

    Villa Roma



Hi Villa,

As you can see by post count I am brand new around here(and too pizza making altogether)  We made our first, all from scratch, Pizza last night. We used a recipe out of some magazine of the Mrs. for the dough and it was.... ok!  We made the sauce from home canned tomatoes, and garden grown vegetables(with was fantastic).  I would love to try your recipe next time but to be honest I'm having a little trouble understanding some of the lingo.(again I'm a noob)

If you don't mind a few questions.

1) what does 87% or 90% hydration mean?

2)what does preferment mean?

3)IDY?

4)Scale and ball dough?

lol I guess I am used to reading out of layman's recipe book.

Thanks for you help and patience.   

buceriasdon

  • Guest
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #195 on: June 13, 2011, 03:49:21 PM »
Gator, This is not a beginner's recipe. Keep it simple at first. Leave high hydration doughs and preferments for later. 1. 87% hydration is the ratio of water to flour. If you have 100 grams of flour, you would add 87 grams of water. For someone starting out this dough is sticky and hard to work. 2. A preferment can be called that or by other names, poolish, biga, mother dough, etc. I suggest you use the search feature here and do some research on your own and read this:     http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/preferments.pdf   3.Instant Dy Yeast  4.A digital scale is an accurate, quick way to measure ingredients for dough. No guessing. Even a $20 scale is a good investment. A dough ball is a finished ball of dough.
Don


Hi Villa,

As you can see by post count I am brand new around here(and too pizza making altogether)  We made our first, all from scratch, Pizza last night. We used a recipe out of some magazine of the Mrs. for the dough and it was.... ok!  We made the sauce from home canned tomatoes, and garden grown vegetables(with was fantastic).  I would love to try your recipe next time but to be honest I'm having a little trouble understanding some of the lingo.(again I'm a noob)

If you don't mind a few questions.

1) what does 87% or 90% hydration mean?

2)what does preferment mean?

3)IDY?

4)Scale and ball dough?

lol I guess I am used to reading out of layman's recipe book.

Thanks for you help and patience.   

Offline Villa Roma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 498
  • Location: Edmond, Ok
  • In search of the ever elusive leopard spots!
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #196 on: July 24, 2011, 11:28:22 PM »
Here's a few whole grain pizzas made with the new slant lid on the 14" LBE.

   Villa Roma
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 11:35:03 PM by Villa Roma »

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24404
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #197 on: July 24, 2011, 11:32:23 PM »
Here's a whole grain pizza made with the new slant lid on the 14" LBE.

   Villa Roma

Villa Roma,

Wow!  What a beautiful whole grain pizza!   ;D  Glad to hear your new slant lid on your 14" LBE is working so well for you.

Norma

Offline Villa Roma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 498
  • Location: Edmond, Ok
  • In search of the ever elusive leopard spots!
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #198 on: July 25, 2011, 06:38:21 PM »
Thanks Norma....The new setup worked really well. The peppers and onions were put on raw and they cooked beautifully.

   Villa Roma

Offline Tampa

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1661
Re: 100% whole grain pizza barrier shattered!!!!
« Reply #199 on: July 26, 2011, 08:52:25 AM »
Wow, very nice!  Who cares which way the heat is flowing when you can deliver pies like this.
Dave