Author Topic: Pizza Shoppe-style?  (Read 15506 times)

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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Pizza Shoppe-style?
« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2014, 04:09:03 PM »
Ryan,

This might be the thread you were thinking about.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29524.0.

Norma

Yeah, that's it.

I didn't mean to scare her off. I really wanted to help (if I could), but she wouldn't tell us anything we needed to know in order to help her in the best way possible. And now that I've looked at those pictures again, I kinda want to try to figure out how to get that many distinct layers without rolling the dough half an inch thick. If I only knew where her pizza came from (so I might be able to read what other people have to say about it), I might spend the next year or three obsessively trying to clone it, then share everything I figure out.


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Pizza Shoppe-style?
« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2014, 04:13:25 PM »
Ryan, I also thought of the threads you mentioned and re read them for ideas. Use of the term "significant rise" might be too vague and incorrect. After looking at the bottom of the crust while eating, which you can kind of see in the pic showing the bottom of the crust, looks to me like the area around each dock mark had spent some time in the pan after being cut before baking. Also seen in the lighter areas around the dock mark. I have made many laminated crusts before but haven't tried to recreate this, so obviously my thoughts could be way off with this one.

Good point (if you're saying what I think you're saying). Also, there are some blisters, which suggests that the dough spent some time in the pan before baking. How much time, though? I'm still inclined to think probably not much longer than a few hours.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Pizza Shoppe-style?
« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2014, 04:24:23 PM »
Here's a shot in the dark: Could this be made of a very low-protein flour with a considerably lower hydration than what I suggested?

I've never used anything with lower protein than AP flour. I don't even know what kind of flour is the next step down in protein. Does that sound like a plausible idea to anyone?

Offline vtsteve

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Re: Pizza Shoppe-style?
« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2014, 11:36:25 AM »
Pastry flour is generally 8-10% protein; King Arthur, as usual, is on the high end.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Pizza Shoppe-style?
« Reply #44 on: June 16, 2014, 05:41:25 PM »
Pastry flour is generally 8-10% protein; King Arthur, as usual, is on the high end.

I bought a box of Swans Down cake flour today. It was the only thing I saw at Kroger that looked like it might be what I'm looking for. Is this what would be considered pastry flour?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Shoppe-style?
« Reply #45 on: June 16, 2014, 06:35:51 PM »
I bought a box of Swans Down cake flour today. It was the only thing I saw at Kroger that looked like it might be what I'm looking for. Is this what would be considered pastry flour?
Ryan,

Pastry flour usually has a higher protein content than cake flour. However, the protein ranges for both flours can be quite wide, much more so than for other flours. Also, cake flours are invariably bleached, whereas that is not always true of pastry flours.

Typical of pastry flours at the retail level are these:

http://www.arrowheadmills.com/product/pastry-flour

http://www.bobsredmill.com/unbleached-white_pastry-flour.html

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/king-arthur-unbleached-pastry-flour-3-lb

For comparison purposes with the Swans Down cake flour, you can click on Product Details at http://www.swansdown.com/about.

Peter

Offline Klankster

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Re: Pizza Shoppe-style?
« Reply #46 on: June 21, 2014, 01:15:24 AM »
Here are some recent Pizza Shoppe pics. It has been quite a long time since I have had it and it was great. The sauce and toppings are nothing special but the crust is unique and has amazing texture. It has a thin and crispy shell like a cracker crust but is much thicker and tender than a standard cracker crust with a rim filled with air pockets. This crust is so different than other cracker crusts, I wonder if there is any hope to produce something similar at home. I have read most of the laminated crust threads and am aware of the recipe and procedure posted earlier in this thread but was wondering if there were any new thoughts or ideas after seeing these pics. Things I am assuming/guessing (maybe incorrectly) are, low hydration dough, heavily laminated, docked with significant rise time in cutter pan. Even if it is never possible to produce this at home, I am still interested in how they are able to produce this unique crust in a commercial setting.
Thanks for those pics! -- now people can see what I want to duplicate.  I haven't had any in a while, I don't get to KC that often, but I'm going to take another crack at this tomorrow and change my lamination method a bit from what I've been using.  Hopefully I'll have some photos to share.
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Pizza Shoppe-style?
« Reply #47 on: June 23, 2014, 11:09:26 PM »
I have identified two pizzas I shared on the Tommy's thread that I think resemble the pics in Reply #34 of this thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5687.msg319562#msg319562) and may be a good starting point for figuring out how to clone this pizza. The last pic in Reply #207 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12446.msg207382#msg207382) and the second and third pics in Reply #257 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12446.msg209159#msg209159).

Obvious differences: Pizza Shoppe pizzas have more layers than my Tommy's clones. I'm guessing Pizza Shoppe has somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 layers, as my Tommy's clones generally have 8 layers.

Similarities: I think the first Pizza Shoppe pic looks a lot like the last pic in Tommy's Reply #207 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12446.msg207382#msg207382), but with more layers and more fat.

I think I have a lot more to say, but I'm tired right now. Any thoughts?

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Pizza Shoppe-style?
« Reply #48 on: June 23, 2014, 11:35:02 PM »
I have identified two pizzas I shared on the Tommy's thread that I think resemble the pics in Reply #34 of this thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5687.msg319562#msg319562) and may be a good starting point for figuring out how to clone this pizza. The last pic in Reply #207 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12446.msg207382#msg207382) and the second and third pics in Reply #257 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12446.msg209159#msg209159).

Obvious differences: Pizza Shoppe pizzas have more layers than my Tommy's clones. I'm guessing Pizza Shoppe has somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 layers, as my Tommy's clones generally have 8 layers.

Similarities: I think the first Pizza Shoppe pic looks a lot like the last pic in Tommy's Reply #207 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12446.msg207382#msg207382), but with more layers and more fat.

I think I have a lot more to say, but I'm tired right now. Any thoughts?
I believe Ryan could duplicate this dough.
Look real close at those PS photos....appears
to be 2 laminated skins stacked don't you think....

CB
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Pizza Shoppe-style?
« Reply #49 on: June 24, 2014, 12:29:52 PM »
Great! I just wrote a pretty long response, then lost it because I bumped a key on my keyboard that made my browser go back a page. Gonna start over now.


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Pizza Shoppe-style?
« Reply #50 on: June 24, 2014, 01:47:20 PM »
Look real close at those PS photos....appears to be 2 laminated skins stacked dont you think....
Good call, Bob. I hadn't noticed that, even though I used to do my Tommy's skins in a way that could be described the same way.

Having thought about it some more, I don't think lower-protein flour is the answer. Even though I never use KAAP anymore, I suggest KAAP below because that's what I used for the pictured pizzas. And I think the crust in my first pic bears quite a resemblance to the first Pizza Shoppe picture (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5687.msg319562#msg319562).

Here's what appears to be the dough formula I used for the first pic below (from 9/2/12):

100% KAAP flour
52% Water
0.75% ADY
1.5% Salt

And here's the formula for the second and third pics (from 9/8/12):

100% KAAP flour
56% Water
1% ADY
2% Salt

Both of those formulas have a pretty high hydration for this style of pizza, but I could see Pizza Shoppe's hydration being similar or possibly even higher. If I was to attempt to clone Pizza Shoppe right now, I think I'd try something like this:

100% KAAP flour
54% Water
0.5% IDY
1.5% Salt
3% fat (shortening?)
Nonfat dry milk?

With this dough I'd likely employ something similar to fazzari's "Using every trick" method of dough management (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30434.0), but with a good amount of bench flour between each layer since the hydration is much higher than fazzari's.

After a short, very warm bulk-ferment (an hour in a just-warm oven?), I'd scale the dough into two square-ish pieces (for one pizza), roll each piece as thin as possible, stack the two very thin "pre-skins" with some bench flour between them, and fold the stacked dough into thirds each way, for 18 layers (with bench flour between each layer). I'd then roll to proper thickness, which appears to be somewhat thicker than my Tommy's clones. When I reach my desired thickness, I'd leave the dough alone to relax for about 15 minutes, stuck to the counter so the dough is less inclined to shrink. After the rest I'd position the dough over the cutter pan, trim it, dock it, then move it straight to the fridge for at least a few hours, if not a couple days.

I'd bake the pizza almost immediately after removing the skin from the fridge. It's very important not to let the skin warm up. I haven't really considered baking temperature yet, but 500 is surely a good place to start.

Now everyone point out what you think may be wrong about what I just said. Seriously, rip it apart, because I'm surely not even close to 100% correct, and the best way to get this right is by ruling out what needs to be ruled out.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Pizza Shoppe-style?
« Reply #51 on: June 24, 2014, 02:49:46 PM »
Ryan,
Throughout your trials I have noticed you shifting between amounts of dusting flour to use. I dont know what amount you used in those last photos you just supplied but the doughs look excellent.
My theory is that the more bench flour applied to skins while rolling out your laminate layers.
.....the more chance for escaping steam to create gum during the bake.
Maybe I have this completely backwards, dunno. Have never tried it with heavy hand dusting.
I wonder if cornstarch would be a good medium......the Chinese use it all the time.

CB
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Pizza Shoppe-style?
« Reply #52 on: June 24, 2014, 04:51:33 PM »
Throughout your trials I have noticed you shifting between amounts of dusting flour to use. I dont know what amount you used in those last photos you just supplied but the doughs look excellent.

Thanks. But I assure you that certain pics of those pizzas look better than they tasted, simply because I wasn't using any fat in the dough back then. When you and I were exchanging a lot of emails (in late 2012 and early 2013, I think, while I was banned), that's when I started understanding how important it was to include fat in the dough for this style. You may remember that I was really focused on Shakey's style at the time, and I was dissecting and analyzing every little bit of Shakey's information available on this site.

I used to always add bench flour between the layers for Tommy's style, but that changed about a year ago when I tried to make what I considered a Shakey's/Tommy's hybrid, which ended up more like Tommy's than any of my previous attempts. My decision to consider omitting flour between the layers was probably influenced by fazzari somewhat, but it was also surely influenced by the difficulty of rolling lower-hydration laminated skins that had flour between the layers. I think I was also influenced quite a bit by what the former Round Table employee said years ago in the early part of that one Round Table thread. (I know you also suggested not adding flour a long time before that, but your suggestion didn't translate very well with what I was doing when you said that.)

I guess that's about when I began to realize that these laminated pizzas (Fazzari's, Shakey's, Tommy's, Round Table, and DNA Dan style, from stiffest to softest) are all made of basically the same dough but with a wide variety of hydration percentages.

With all the different approaches bouncing around in my head, I came to the conclusion that very stiff laminated dough like Shakey's (and especially Fazzari's) does not need flour between the layers, especially in a home setting, while much softer laminated dough, like Round Table, pretty much has to have flour between the layers. Tommy's, I'd say, is somewhere in between Shakey's and Round Table and probably does not require any extra flour.

Having never had Pizza Shoppe, there is so much I cannot possibly know about it. But based on the pictures, I feel like their dough must be pretty similar to the places I mentioned in the last couple paragraphs; possibly with higher hydration and thus a good amount of bench flour added. Still, something seems different. In addition to what I've already said, I also see characteristics of Pizza Hut thin in the Pizza Shoppe pics, which I know uses very stiff dough (because I worked at Pizza Hut). So one way of looking at this pizza tells me the dough may be pretty soft, but when I look at it another way I see very stiff dough. So yeah, I'm just as confused as everyone else.

All I know is that I'd love for someone (or me) to figure out how to make a pizza that looks like the Pizza Shoppe pizza shared earlier in this thread. If you have any road trips to KC planned, stop by here and take me with you.

Offline fazzari

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Re: Pizza Shoppe-style?
« Reply #53 on: June 26, 2014, 05:59:27 PM »
Thanks. But I assure you that certain pics of those pizzas look better than they tasted, simply because I wasn't using any fat in the dough back then. When you and I were exchanging a lot of emails (in late 2012 and early 2013, I think, while I was banned), that's when I started understanding how important it was to include fat in the dough for this style. You may remember that I was really focused on Shakey's style at the time, and I was dissecting and analyzing every little bit of Shakey's information available on this site.

I used to always add bench flour between the layers for Tommy's style, but that changed about a year ago when I tried to make what I considered a Shakey's/Tommy's hybrid, which ended up more like Tommy's than any of my previous attempts. My decision to consider omitting flour between the layers was probably influenced by fazzari somewhat, but it was also surely influenced by the difficulty of rolling lower-hydration laminated skins that had flour between the layers. I think I was also influenced quite a bit by what the former Round Table employee said years ago in the early part of that one Round Table thread. (I know you also suggested not adding flour a long time before that, but your suggestion didn't translate very well with what I was doing when you said that.)

I guess that's about when I began to realize that these laminated pizzas (Fazzari's, Shakey's, Tommy's, Round Table, and DNA Dan style, from stiffest to softest) are all made of basically the same dough but with a wide variety of hydration percentages.

With all the different approaches bouncing around in my head, I came to the conclusion that very stiff laminated dough like Shakey's (and especially Fazzari's) does not need flour between the layers, especially in a home setting, while much softer laminated dough, like Round Table, pretty much has to have flour between the layers. Tommy's, I'd say, is somewhere in between Shakey's and Round Table and probably does not require any extra flour.

Having never had Pizza Shoppe, there is so much I cannot possibly know about it. But based on the pictures, I feel like their dough must be pretty similar to the places I mentioned in the last couple paragraphs; possibly with higher hydration and thus a good amount of bench flour added. Still, something seems different. In addition to what I've already said, I also see characteristics of Pizza Hut thin in the Pizza Shoppe pics, which I know uses very stiff dough (because I worked at Pizza Hut). So one way of looking at this pizza tells me the dough may be pretty soft, but when I look at it another way I see very stiff dough. So yeah, I'm just as confused as everyone else.

All I know is that I'd love for someone (or me) to figure out how to make a pizza that looks like the Pizza Shoppe pizza shared earlier in this thread. If you have any road trips to KC planned, stop by here and take me with you.

Nice work on the pizza shoppe pizza Ryan!!

Here are a couple thoughts I have for you.  My first thought is that with only 1 picture to go on, one would have to hope that the picture is truly representative of what the typical pizza would look like.  This is important as I will show you below.  Number 2, I would think that all you can do is come up with a process to simulate a picture, since the picture is all you have to go on.  Having said that, I took a small piece of dough the other day (36% hydration, high gluten flour) and tried to replicate what I saw in the picture.  Here is what I did:  I sheeted the dough as thin as I could using my sheeter, using only enough flour to keep the sheet from sticking to itself.  Then I folded the dough up into 8 layers, and sheeted as I normally would, except I made the laminated skin thicker than I normally would.  I later calculated the thickness factor at .14 where my normal skin would be .10.  My thoughts were that if I kept the sheet a bit thicker, the layer would tend to stay separated.  I then cut out my skins, refrigerated for 2 days.  I don't have cutter pan, so all I did was prep the skin and bake on a screen to see what I would come up with.  The pizza was excellent, crispy on the bottom, very light and airy in the middle, very tasty.  You can see from the 2 different side crumb shots how very different one skin can look from two angles.

I would think this pizza should be one of the easiest laminated ones to make at home.  You could probably use any flour, use a higher hydration rate.......and I would sheet it as thin as I could on the first sheeting and then fold and the second sheeting should be way easier because it doesn't have to be pressed super thin!!!

John



« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 06:03:35 PM by fazzari »

Offline norma427

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Re: Pizza Shoppe-style?
« Reply #54 on: June 26, 2014, 06:11:04 PM »
Nice work on the pizza shoppe pizza Ryan!!

Here are a couple thoughts I have for you.  My first thought is that with only 1 picture to go on, one would have to hope that the picture is truly representative of what the typical pizza would look like.  This is important as I will show you below.  Number 2, I would think that all you can do is come up with a process to simulate a picture, since the picture is all you have to go on.  Having said that, I took a small piece of dough the other day (36% hydration, high gluten flour) and tried to replicate what I saw in the picture.  Here is what I did:  I sheeted the dough as thin as I could using my sheeter, using only enough flour to keep the sheet from sticking to itself.  Then I folded the dough up into 8 layers, and sheeted as I normally would, except I made the laminated skin thicker than I normally would.  I later calculated the thickness factor at .14 where my normal skin would be .10.  My thoughts were that if I kept the sheet a bit thicker, the layer would tend to stay separated.  I then cut out my skins, refrigerated for 2 days.  I don't have cutter pan, so all I did was prep the skin and bake on a screen to see what I would come up with.  The pizza was excellent, crispy on the bottom, very light and airy in the middle, very tasty.  You can see from the 2 different side crumb shots how very different one skin can look from two angles.

I would think this pizza should be one of the easiest laminated ones to make at home.  You could probably use any flour, use a higher hydration rate.......and I would sheet it as thin as I could on the first sheeting and then fold and the second sheeting should be way easier because it doesn't have to be pressed super thin!!!

John

John,

Great job!  8) That bottom crust looks delicious.

Norma
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Pizza Shoppe-style?
« Reply #55 on: June 26, 2014, 07:22:46 PM »
Nice experiment John.....as always, you rock man!   :chef:

Now...... gimmie that sheeter!!   >:(

CB
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 07:24:21 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Pizza Shoppe-style?
« Reply #56 on: June 26, 2014, 11:06:52 PM »
I sheeted the dough as thin as I could using my sheeter, using only enough flour to keep the sheet from sticking to itself.  Then I folded the dough up into 8 layers, and sheeted as I normally would, except I made the laminated skin thicker than I normally would.  John

I have played with this idea a bit as well and I have to say you nailed it John! You'd be hard pressed (literally) to make a crust like this without a sheeter. From the pics in the first post, this almost comes off as a pie crust. Do you know if this is a particularly greasy crust? Or cooked on a pan with lots of oil?

Regarding bench flour, my experience with this style is the lower hydration doughs don't really need bench flour while the higher ones do. Again this isn't to promote lamination separation, but rather a practical measure to be able to handle the dough through the sheeter effectively.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 11:11:49 PM by DNA Dan »

Offline fazzari

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Re: Pizza Shoppe-style?
« Reply #57 on: June 27, 2014, 10:14:58 AM »
John,

Great job!  8) That bottom crust looks delicious.

Norma

Got lucky on that one Norma!
Nice experiment John.....as always, you rock man!   :chef:

Now...... gimmie that sheeter!!   >:(

CB
That's "MY" toy Bob!!
I have played with this idea a bit as well and I have to say you nailed it John! You'd be hard pressed (literally) to make a crust like this without a sheeter. From the pics in the first post, this almost comes off as a pie crust. Do you know if this is a particularly greasy crust? Or cooked on a pan with lots of oil?

Regarding bench flour, my experience with this style is the lower hydration doughs don't really need bench flour while the higher ones do. Again this isn't to promote lamination separation, but rather a practical measure to be able to handle the dough through the sheeter effectively.

On the contrary Dan, this should be the simplest of all the laminated crusts to make, because the final product doesn't have to be that thin.  I know nothing of this crust except for what I can see in a  picture,, this exercise was to simply show yet another method to make a different style crust.

john

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Pizza Shoppe-style?
« Reply #58 on: June 27, 2014, 12:34:47 PM »
Yeah, that looks great, John, as does your pic on the thread I mentioned earlier, which Norma subsequently dug up and linked to. Although I've been inclined to think it's possible to recreate basically all laminated cracker style skins without a sheeter (using a lot of hard work), you may be changing my mind, at least in regards to these pizzas that have apparently more than 10 visible layers.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Pizza Shoppe-style?
« Reply #59 on: June 30, 2014, 09:15:53 PM »
On the contrary Dan, this should be the simplest of all the laminated crusts to make, because the final product doesn't have to be that thin.  I know nothing of this crust except for what I can see in a  picture,, this exercise was to simply show yet another method to make a different style crust.

I agree once it's been folded, but getting the first layer really thin is where the hard work is. I suppose this could be done with a much higher hydration since there is no issue with later pressing the layers together. In this regard it's almost like the "superimposed" layer strategy. 


 

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