Author Topic: Converting big recipe to small recipe  (Read 2948 times)

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Offline srl310

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Converting big recipe to small recipe
« on: October 22, 2007, 02:43:09 PM »

  I purchased a thin crust recipe 10 years ago from a chicago thin crust joint.  It uses 25#s
of flour a crack.  I am trying to replicate in my home prior to opening a pizza parlor. 
Ingredients called for:
Water, sugar, wet yeast, flour(what kind? the king Arthur high protein?), eggs
total mixing time 14 minutes
   If someone could point this knucklehead in the right direction it would be greatly appreciated. ???
Whats a home product comparable with the Full Red lines?


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Converting big recipe to small recipe
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2007, 03:28:09 PM »
srl310,

Do you have the weights of all of the other ingredients (besides the flour)? If not, do you have the volume measurements for such ingredients? And do you know what amount of dough is needed to make a particular sized pizza (and what is that size)? If you know how many dough balls there are in a single dough batch, that would also help.

If you have the weights of all of the ingredients, you don't have to reveal them if you don't want to, for reasons of secrecy. I might be able to tell you how to reduce the size of your recipe without that information. I will know better once you offer more guidance.

To the best of my knowledge, there aren't any retail level tomatoes that are the equivalent to the Stanislaus Full Red tomatoes. However, you should be able to find the Full Red tomatoes at several online sources or possibly at a foodservice company in your area. If you tell us where you live, someone may be able to help you identify a source of the Full Red tomatoes.

As an aside, you may want to rethink using eggs in your dough, especially fresh eggs, if you are serious about using your recipe in a commercial operation. Cross-contamination issues and health inspectors can become a problem for you.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 03:36:10 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline srl310

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Re: Converting big recipe to small recipe
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2007, 04:37:33 PM »

  Pete, thanks for replying to my newbie post. weights/ measurements are as follows:
180 oz warm water
1 oz     sugar
25 #'s  flour (king Arthur?) not sure here
6 eggs  ( could I use whole pasteurized liquid egg?)
speed 1 - 8 minutes
add 6 oz salt speed 1 for an additional 6 minutes
9 oz dough ball 12"
each additional 2 oz of dough gets 2" of dough circumference
I am not sure on the yeild

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Converting big recipe to small recipe
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2007, 05:11:57 PM »
srl310,

Did you forget the yeast? Your original post referenced "wet" yeast. Do you mean "fresh" (or cake, or compressed) yeast?

To answer your question about the eggs, yes, you should be able to use pasteurized eggs.

As for the flour, is it possible that it is the Hecker's or Ceresota flour that is popular in Chicago-land? I assume that either of those flours is available in large bags for use by professionals.

Once I have all of the information, I believe I should be able to convert your recipe to any size you want, and to show you how to do it yourself.

Peter

Offline srl310

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Re: Converting big recipe to small recipe
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2007, 05:28:30 PM »
 Pete, I got the recipe 10 years ago.  I was not real focused back then.
He referred to the yeast as wet yeast.  And I am not sure what the flour was.
Worst possible case scenario, I could call him up.  But that would entail a lot of phone
talk/catching up.  I worked there twenty years ago, old Italian recipe.  They used ovens
with rotating shelves.  Gas ovens, he referred to it as a baker oven.
This all the information I have.  Thanks for your help, Steve

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Converting big recipe to small recipe
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2007, 05:46:11 PM »
Steve,

While I was awaiting your reply, I did some research and "wet" yeast is the same as fresh yeast. In order to work on your recipe, I will need the amount of yeast. Do you have that piece of information?

Peter

Offline srl310

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Re: Converting big recipe to small recipe
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2007, 05:49:57 PM »
1/2 # of wet yeast

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Converting big recipe to small recipe
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2007, 07:28:06 PM »
Steve,

Based on the information you provided, I converted all of your weights for ingredients to ounces and calculated the baker’s percents for your recipe. For purposes of this exercise, I used the industry standard data for eggs, which says that the contents of a single, raw, fresh, large egg weighs 50 grams, or 1.764 ounces (50/28.35 = 1.764). So, six such eggs weigh 10.58 ounces. FYI, a full batch of dough based on your recipe comes to 605.58 ounces, or 37.85 pounds. That would be enough to make about sixty seven 9-ounce dough balls or about fifty five 11-ounce dough balls.

I also calculated the thickness factor (a measure of crust thickness) for the example you gave me of 9 ounces of dough for a 12” pizza. The thickness factor in this case is 0.079578 [9/(3.14159 x 6 x 6)]. If you use 11 ounces for a 14” pizza, which was a second example you mentioned, the thickness factor is 0.071457 [11/(3.14159 x 7 x 7)]. The significance of these numbers will become more evident below.

To arrive at the specifics of your recipe, I used the enhanced dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. Using that tool, for a full batch of your dough (605.58 ounces), this is what your recipe looks like:

Flour (100%):
Water (45%):
CY (2%):
Salt (1.5%):
Sugar (0.25%):
Eggs, large (2.645%):
Total (151.395%):
11340 g  |  400 oz | 25 lbs
5103 g  |  180 oz | 11.25 lbs
226.8 g | 8 oz | 0.5 lbs |
170.1 g | 6 oz | 0.38 lbs | 10.16 tbsp | 0.63 cups
28.35 g | 1 oz | 0.06 lbs | 7.11 tsp | 2.37 tbsp
299.94 g | 10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs | 19.75 tbsp | 1.23 cups
17168.19 g | 605.58 oz | 37.85 lbs | TF = N/A

Now, if you decide you want to make a small batch in your home mixer, for example, a 3-pound dough batch, all you have to do is enter a dough batch weight of 48 ounces (3 x 16 = 48) into the abovementioned tool, along with the baker’s percents given in the above table. Doing this, we get the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (45%):
CY (2%):
Salt (1.5%):
Sugar (0.25%):
Eggs, large (2.645%):
Total (151.395%):
898.84 g  |  31.71 oz | 1.98 lbs
404.48 g  |  14.27 oz | 0.89 lbs
17.98 g | 0.63 oz | 0.04 lbs |
13.48 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.42 tsp | 0.81 tbsp
2.25 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.56 tsp | 0.19 tbsp
23.77 g | 0.84 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.7 tsp | 1.57 tbsp
1360.8 g | 48 oz | 3 lbs | TF = N/A

For this example, you would need about a half of a large, fresh, raw egg (0.84/1.74 = 0.48 eggs).

The dough calculating tool can also be used with the thickness factors mentioned above. For example, assume that you want to make 6 dough balls, each weighing 9 ounces and to be used to make 12” pizzas. In this case, you would elect the Thickness Factor option of the tool, enter the thickness factor 0.0795775, the desired number of dough balls (six in this example), the pizza size (12” in this example), and the same baker’s percents as in the above table. Doing this, we get the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (45%):
CY (2%):
Salt (1.5%):
Sugar (0.25%):
Eggs, large (2.645%):
Total (151.395%):
Single Ball:
1011.2 g  |  35.67 oz | 2.23 lbs
455.04 g  |  16.05 oz | 1 lbs
20.22 g | 0.71 oz | 0.04 lbs |
15.17 g | 0.54 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.72 tsp | 0.91 tbsp
2.53 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.63 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
26.75 g | 0.94 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.28 tsp | 1.76 tbsp
1530.91 g | 54 oz | 3.38 lbs | TF = 0.079578
255.15 g | 9 oz | 0.56 lbs

In this example, you would need a little over a half of a large, fresh, raw egg (0.94/1.74 = 0.53 eggs).

To calculate the ingredient quantities needed for the 11 ounce, 14” pizzas, you would use the thickness factor 0.071457 in the tool, along with the other inputs as described above.

As you can see, the dough calculating tool can be used to calculate the ingredient quantities needed to make any desired dough batch weight, or any number of pizzas (up to 999) for just about any pizza size. I think you will figure things out pretty quickly by playing around with the tool. You will also note that the tool allows you to compensate for minor dough losses in the bowl, by using the bowl residue compensation factor. In a home mixer environment, I usually use 1.5%.

Over the past ten years, many pizza operators have gone to using active dry yeast (ADY) and instant dry yeast (IDY). If you decide at some point to switch to those forms of yeast, the dough calculating tool can be used to determine how much of those forms of yeast to use. However, since fresh yeast (cake yeast) includes water, you would have to adjust the hydration (the amount of water) in your recipe to compensate for the loss of water when switching from the fresh yeast to a dry form. If you eventually need help with the adjustments, come back and let us know. In the meantime, keep in mind that when switching from fresh yeast to ADY, you will use about half the weight of the fresh yeast, and when switching from fresh yeast to IDY, you will need about a third of the weight of the fresh yeast. The differences are what would have to be subtracted from the formula hydration of the dough.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 11, 2008, 09:09:38 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline srl310

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Re: Converting big recipe to small recipe
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2007, 12:52:26 AM »
Pete, you are a MAD MAN.  How did you figure it all out.  You the man.
Your replies  have stirred more questions.  I am taking some time to digest
all the information.  Thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge
Peace, Steve
PS  I am almost afraid to ask.
Do you know the name of those old Baker ovens?
The kind with rotating shelves?

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Converting big recipe to small recipe
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2007, 09:34:29 AM »
Pete, you are a MAD MAN

Steve,

Thank you. That is one of the nicest things anyone has said to me recently.

The tool I mentioned took a lot of research and time-consuming work, but the really hard part was programming the numbers into a usable form. For that, we can thank Mike (Boy Hits Car), who did all the programming heavy lifting. Without his input, the enhanced tool wouldn't even exist and I would be using cumbersome Excel documents to help people figure things out.

I believe the ovens you have in mind are the reel, or ferris wheel-type rotating ovens. These have been used for many years in the Chicago area for deep-dish pizzas but also for the thin Chicago style. Oven names that may ring a bell are Fish, Baxter, Reed and Middleby Marshall. A lot of the rotary ovens are long in the tooth but still being maintained and used in many places. A newer brand of rotary oven is the Rotoflex oven. It's an expensive oven but favored by a lot of the newer users. Increasingly, operators of the old equipment are going to conveyor ovens, especially in volume situations and where they can use low cost labor to make and bake the pizzas. If you don't plan to offer deep-dish pizzas, or do not want to spring for a Rotoflex oven, which is a high volume workhorse (but requires an experienced oven tender), conveyor ovens may be the better way to go.

Peter


Offline srl310

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Re: Converting big recipe to small recipe
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2007, 09:10:15 AM »
Peter, I am going to attempt to make dough tonight.  when measuring ingredients can I convert to grams?
I have a digi scale and would be easier to convert 1.98 #s of flour to grams?  And I am not use toseeing liquid weighed out.  Trouble measuerments  include
.04lbs. of yeast
water
flour
can i convert dry ingredients to grams for more acurate measurement?
and the liquid?
add yeast to warm water for how long?
mix speed (kitchen aid) and how long?
Thanks Steve

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Re: Converting big recipe to small recipe
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2007, 09:54:44 AM »
Steve,

If you look at the second set of data in Reply 7, you will see that all of the ingredients are given in grams, in the leftmost column.

Cake yeast is hard to convert to volume measurements because there is no convenient and reliable way of doing that. However, 17.98 grams of cake yeast is equal to about one of those little Fleishchmann's cubes of cake yeast sold in some supermarkets (one cube weighs 17 grams). If you have a scale that can weigh in grams, you should be able to weigh out the cake yeast quite easily. In similar vein, you should be able to weigh out the water. FYI, one cup of water technically weighs around 8.35 ounces. However, for most people, the actual number in practice is likely to be closer to 8.1-8.2 ounces.

If you plan to use cake yeast, there is no need to rehydrate it in water. It is a wet form of yeast and can simply be crumbled on top of the flour in the mixer bowl.

I'm afraid I may not be the best one to counsel you on mixing speeds and times since I never make 3 lb. dough batches in my basic KitchenAid machine with the C-hook. The instructions that came with my mixer say to use speed 2 to make yeasted doughs. There is also a recommended maximum of 8 cups of flour. In your case, 1.98 pounds of flour comes to around 7 cups. If you have the instructions that came with your particular stand mixer, you should be able to find the corresponding maximum limits.

Peter

Offline srl310

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Re: Converting big recipe to small recipe
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2007, 01:24:41 PM »
Pete, active dry and idy yeast can they be subbed across the board equally with out any adjust ment?
And your thin crust attempts call for a food processor.can it be made in a kitchen aid with a dough hook and get the same results?  Thanks



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Re: Converting big recipe to small recipe
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2007, 01:55:06 PM »
Steve,

Technically, the amounts of ADY and IDY you would use would be different. If you go back to Reply 7 and reread the last paragraph, I say there how you would use ADY and IDY instead of cake yeast. If you have a particular dough batch size in mind, maybe I can help you readjust the dough formulation for either ADY or IDY.

I am not sure which thin crust attempts you are referring to. Most recently, I have been making thin cracker-style doughs in which I used a food processor, a KitchenAid stand mixer (with a C-hook), and also a hand-kneaded version. The results using the three different mrthods won't be exactly comparable, because the three methods are different. But, I don't see any reason why you can't use a stand mixer. If you have a spiral hook, that will be better than a C-hook.

Peter