My first NY attempt, not bad but.....

[5by5]

.... I think there's room for improvement.

Here's the recipe I used:

500 Grams KABF
300 Grams room temp water
1 tbsp olive oil
1 tsp sea salt
1/4 tsp Saf instant yeast.
1 tsp honey
Combine flour and salt in mixer bowl
Mix all aother ingredients together and add to flour.
Turn on mixer until ball forms.
Let rest 5 min.
Mix another 5 min.
Let dough ferment for an hour or so, then divide into to equal pieces and refrigerate in oiled bowls fro a day or two.
I bake at 500 degrees about 7 mins.
Do not open the oven for at least 5 min!!

I used ADY, using the IDY/ADY conversion chart and let the yeast sit in 105 degree water for 10 minutes.  I cut the recipe in 1/2 since I was making 2 12" pies.

The dough spent 2 days in the fridge and I let the dough sit at room temp for about 2 hours.  I formed the pies by pressing down in the center with my fist, forming the crust and then stretching the pie. 

The crust was smaller than it should be and the bottom was harder than it should be.  The dough was chewy and had a good doughy taste.  Some bubbles in the dough.  I may not have stretched it enough since it seemed a bit thicker than a typical NY style pie. 

Any thoughts on how I can improve from here?

[5by5]

more pics

[Pete-zza]

I cut the recipe in 1/2 since I was making 2 12" pies.

Tony,

Can you tell me whether the recipe you ended up using to make the two 12" pizzas was the one you posted, or did you cut that recipe in half? I estimate that the recipe you posted makes 827 grams of dough, or about 413 grams per dough ball.

Peter

[5by5]

Peter, I cut that recipe in half.  So I used 250 grams of flour, etc.

Tony

[pcampbell]

I put this into the Lehman calculator and came up with something like two 13.5" pies.

Flour (100%): Water (60%): IDY (.15%): Salt (1.0%): Total (161.15%): Single Ball:

503.63 g  |  17.76 oz | 1.11 lbs 302.18 g  |  10.66 oz | 0.67 lbs 0.76 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp 5.04 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.05 tsp | 0.35 tbsp 811.6 g | 28.63 oz | 1.79 lbs | TF = 0.1 405.8 g | 14.31 oz | 0.89 lbs

The amount of IDY and salt seems fairly low I think.

Did you use 250g per pie or 250g flour total?

[5by5]

I used 250g total.  I got the the recipe from this thread:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4258.0.html

[Pete-zza]

Tony,

Unless you were trying to make a super-thin NY style, I think I know where the problem lies.

If you divided the recipe you posted in half, and substituted ADY for the IDY using the theartisan.net yeast conversion table (http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm), then I estimate that your total dough batch weight was 413.47 grams. If that amount of dough was used to make two dough balls, for two 12” pizzas, each dough ball would weigh 206.74 grams. That would be 7.29 ounces per dough ball. For that weight, I calculated a thickness factor of 0.06445. That would be on the very low side for a NY style, thinner than even the thinnest “elite” NY style that I am aware of. It is more in line with a thickness factor for a cracker-style crust. So, you could expect the crust under these circumstances to be hard. A simple way to get around that is to just make a thicker skin. You could also proof the skin for about an hour before dressing it although that might not make a major difference.

To better examine your recipe, I ran your numbers through the enhanced dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. I used this calculator rather than the Lehmann calculator used by pcampbell because it can handle the honey, which the Lehmann calculator cannot. In any event, I got the following for a single dough ball:

Flour (100%): Water (60%): ADY (0.175%): Salt (1.116%): Olive Oil (2.7%): Honey (1.398%): Total (165.389%):

125.04 g  |  4.41 oz | 0.28 lbs 75.02 g  |  2.65 oz | 0.17 lbs 0.22 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.06 tsp | 0.02 tbsp 1.4 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp 3.38 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp 1.75 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp 206.8 g | 7.29 oz | 0.46 lbs | TF = 0.0644992

The numbers in the above table are not exact because I did not attempt to tweak the values to compensate for the fact that you switched from IDY in your recipe to ADY. However, the values are close enough for our purposes.

From the dough formulation, I see that your ADY was only 0.175% of the weight of the flour. I would increase that to something between 0.25-0.375% ADY. The salt is also on the low side, as pcampbell noted, but if your crust tasted salty enough for your tastebuds, I wouldn’t change it. A more typical value of salt for the NY style is 1.5-1.75%.

So, I think the biggest issue is the dough thickness. If you can give me some guidance as to what kind of crust thickness you are after, I may be able to help you change the formulation, including any other changes you may want to make to the formulation itself.

Peter 

[Pete-zza]

Tony,

As a followup to my last post, I went to the addicted page you referenced and calculated the thickness factor for the two 16" pizzas that addicted made using the original recipe you posted. The thickness factor is 0.0725. That would be an "elite" NY style crust thickness--maybe something like a Patsy's crust thickness. Remember, however, that most of the elite NY styles are baked in very high temperature ovens, mostly coal-fired ovens. So, the finished crust will have different characteristics than what you will get in a standard, unmodified home oven.

Actually, you weren't too far off with your pizzas. An amount of dough than can be used to make a 16" pizza will make two roughly 12" pizzas. It's something a bit shy of 12". addicted's recipe should make four such pizzas. Halving it would make two such pizzas.

BTW, I think your pizzas look fine. I think a bit thicker crust and a bit more yeast should help.

Peter

[5by5]

From the dough formulation, I see that your ADY was only 0.175% of the weight of the flour. I would increase that to something between 0.25-0.375% ADY. The salt is also on the low side, as pcampbell noted, but if your crust tasted salty enough for your tastebuds, I wouldn’t change it. A more typical value of salt for the NY style is 1.5-1.75%.

So, I think the biggest issue is the dough thickness. If you can give me some guidance as to what kind of crust thickness you are after, I may be able to help you change the formulation, including any other changes you may want to make to the formulation itself.

Peter 

I think I would prefer something around .1 - .12 dough thickness.  I'd rather have the cooked dough be softer.

I'll try recipe again tomorrow with your suggested changes.  When I'm forming the crust, do I want it to be the size I desire after cooking or should I expect some expansion?

Actually, you weren't too far off with your pizzas. An amount of dough than can be used to make a 16" pizza will make two roughly 12" pizzas. It's something a bit shy of 12". addicted's recipe should make four such pizzas. Halving it would make two such pizzas.

BTW, I think your pizzas look fine. I think a bit thicker crust and a bit more yeast should help.

Thanks!

[Pete-zza]

Tony,

I have taken a stab at a “modified addicted” dough formulation that you might want to consider. I left the IDY in the dough formulation but increased its value. If you decide to use ADY, just make the change and don’t worry about how that affects the rest of the formulation. The differences will be negligible. I also increased the amount of salt to 1.5%. You might also want to know that I used a bowl residue compensation value of 1.5% to compensate for minor dough losses in the bowl. For the thickness factor, I used 0.10. Any of the values entered into the tool can be changed as you wish. For example, if you want a more open and airy crust, you might increase the amount of water to around 62%. That’s the beauty of the tool.

Here is the formulation for two dough balls for two 12” pizzas:

Flour (100%): Water (60%): IDY (0.25%): Salt (1.5%): Olive Oil (2.7%): Honey (1.398%): Total (165.848%): Single Ball:

392.46 g  |  13.84 oz | 0.87 lbs 235.47 g  |  8.31 oz | 0.52 lbs 0.98 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp 5.89 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.05 tsp | 0.35 tbsp 10.6 g | 0.37 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.35 tsp | 0.78 tbsp 5.49 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.78 tsp | 0.26 tbsp 650.88 g | 22.96 oz | 1.43 lbs | TF = 0.1015 325.44 g | 11.48 oz | 0.72 lbs

Note: The dough is for two 12” pizzas; the nominal thickness factor is 0.10; the bowl residue compensation is 1.5%.

As far as shaping the skin is concerned, I think that you will find that when the dressed pizza hits the preheated pizza stone, it will actually shrink in size, not expand. I usually don’t try to compensate for the shrinkage, but if you would like to do so, then go ahead and do it. For a 12” final size, you might use a skin size of about 12.5-13”.

Please let us know how things turn out.

Peter

[JerryMac]

Tony,

Don't sweat the "But"s too much, Your Pie looks Realy Good and if you listen to Pete and the other guys you're off on a great adventure of Learning and Eating !!!      

Mangia Bene 
Jerry

I Love Emoticons 
At Least So I'm Told 

[5by5]

I think that revised recipe was on the money Pete.  And thank you for your kind comments Jerry.  I think I'm where I want to be with this now.   

I made 2 batches over the last few weeks.  The first was left in the fridge for 3 days.   The TF was more than .1 though.  I think this was because I just didn't stretch the  pie out enough.  It had a good taste but was still a bit hard for my liking. 

Then I made another batch and let this one sit in the fridge for 8 days, unintentionally.  I made sure to stretch it out a bit more.  I also raised the cooking rack to the center of the oven and shaved a minute or so off of the cook time.  This pie was nearly exactly what i was looking for!!     Nice and doughy, the slice was somewhat foldable, not hard at all.  Everyone said it was the best for sure.  So I think I'm in good shape from here, I just need to work on my pie-making technique.  The pics below are from the second batch.

One think I didn't like is that pie was VERY greasy.  I guess I can try to sop some up before cutting.

Thanks for your invaluable help getting my pizza to this point! 

Next, I want to do the Neapolitan style.

Tony