Author Topic: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)  (Read 38028 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24409
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #150 on: August 09, 2015, 12:25:22 PM »
Norma


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24409
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #151 on: August 09, 2015, 12:26:27 PM »
Norma

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23605
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #152 on: August 09, 2015, 12:40:55 PM »
Norma,

I'm glad the recipe worked out well for you. Congratulations on making a 1940's era pizza ;D.

One of the things I forgot to mention to you in Reply 140 that you referenced is that sifting the flour allows you to "squeeze" more water into the flour to hydrate it more completely. As you can see from some experiments I conducted and described in Reply 56 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg39803#msg39803 , I was able to use a hydration value of 65% with a GM all-purpose flour without encountering any problems. Maybe I could have gone even higher, but I never conducted that experiment. It looks like you didn't have any problems using the higher hydration value.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24409
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #153 on: August 09, 2015, 01:56:10 PM »
Norma,

I'm glad the recipe worked out well for you. Congratulations on making a 1940's era pizza ;D.

One of the things I forgot to mention to you in Reply 140 that you referenced is that sifting the flour allows you to "squeeze" more water into the flour to hydrate it more completely. As you can see from some experiments I conducted and described in Reply 56 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg39803#msg39803 , I was able to use a hydration value of 65% with a GM all-purpose flour without encountering any problems. Maybe I could have gone even higher, but I never conducted that experiment. It looks like you didn't have any problems using the higher hydration value.

Peter

Peter,

I was born in the 1940's so I am glad I tried a dough and pizza from then.  8)

No, I didn't have any problems with the higher hydration dough, but it was for a pan instead of what you were doing.  The dough was a little tacky but really not bad at all. The dough transferred from the table to the pan easily.  The dough reminded me of some NP doughs I have tried as far as being soft.  Thanks for referencing your post at Reply 56.  You did well using your two methods of mixing the doughs with that high of a hydration using GM all-purpose flour, and your GMAP1 dough sounded exceptional. 

I can understand how sifting the flour allows us to “squeeze” more water into the flour.

The salt, sugar and lard were dissolved in the boiling water, cooled, then the cake yeast water was added to that.  I am guessing that is something like you when you dissolved the salt in the water, then gradually added flour.  I also gradually added flour while hand mixing, before taking the dough out of the bowl and then hand kneading with some rests. 

The dough was left on the table, under the plastic container, for about 20 minutes while other things were gotten ready.  The dough really fermented a lot in that amount of time. 

I think I could have stretched that dough instead of pressing, but really don't know because that wasn't tried. 

I forgot to post that I used John F. Martin pure lard for the dough formulation. 

Norma

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23605
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #154 on: August 09, 2015, 02:23:52 PM »
Peter,

I forgot to post that I used John F. Martin pure lard for the dough formulation. 

Norma
Norma,

I don't know what shortening products were like in the 1940s, but Crisco shortening was invented long before that (in 1911) and was available in the 1940s. Lard was perhaps much like it is today. On a weight/volume basis, the two products are quite similar.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24409
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #155 on: August 09, 2015, 02:44:27 PM »
Norma,

I don't know what shortening products were like in the 1940s, but Crisco shortening was invented long before that (in 1911) and was available in the 1940s. Lard was perhaps much like it is today. On a weight/volume basis, the two products are quite similar.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me that Crisco shortening was invented in 1911 and was available in the 1940's.  I also think that lard is like Crisco used to be.  I recall when Crisco was a lot different than it is now.  Thanks for telling us that on a weight/volume basis the two products are quite similar.

Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24409
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #156 on: August 11, 2015, 09:25:29 PM »
The dough ball that was frozen right after it was balled made a good NY style pizza today.  I posted about that dough from Peter's formulation at Reply 148 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14920.msg391555#msg391555  There were four ice packs used to try to keep the dough ball from overfermenting while it defrosted in the little cooler.  That method worked.  When the dough ball was taken out of the cooler it was cold, but not frozen.  It rose fast at room temperature, and the gas build-up could be seen in the one photo by the bulging red lid.  The dough opened very easily with no rips or tears.  The dough was very strong in the sense that it handled nicely for being a hand mixed dough.  The same sauce that was used on Sunday was used again.  Today a blend of cheddar and mozzarella was used as the cheeses.  There was good oven spring today.

Thanks again Peter!

Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24409
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #157 on: August 11, 2015, 09:29:24 PM »
Norma
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 09:58:17 PM by norma427 »

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24409
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #158 on: August 11, 2015, 09:32:30 PM »
Norma


Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23605
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #159 on: August 11, 2015, 09:43:14 PM »
Norma,

Glad to have helped. It was fun trying to figure out how to convert the original recipe to baker's percent format.

For an all-purpose flour, the pizza looks very good and tasty. But all-purpose flour was what was commonly used in the 1940s.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24409
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #160 on: August 11, 2015, 10:03:21 PM »
Norma,

Glad to have helped. It was fun trying to figure out how to convert the original recipe to baker's percent format.

For an all-purpose flour, the pizza looks very good and tasty. But all-purpose flour was what was commonly used in the 1940s.

Peter

Peter,

I am glad you thought it was fun trying to figure out how to convert the original recipe to baker's percent format.  I sure couldn't have done that.  I thought all-purpose flour was commonly used in the 1940's for pizzas.  I wonder what other flour options were available in the 1940's. 

Norma

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23605
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #161 on: August 11, 2015, 10:25:47 PM »
Norma,

According to Evelyne Slomon, at Reply 298 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1258.msg37081;topicseen#msg37081 , during Workd War II, pizzerias apparently used whatever flours they could get their hands on. So, there must have been some kind of scarcity. But, in general, it looks like the flours at the time were relatively low or medium in protein, malted, bleached and bromated. However, I do not believe that the all-purpose flours at the time were bromated. That is still the case today.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24409
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #162 on: August 11, 2015, 11:11:51 PM »
Norma,

According to Evelyne Slomon, at Reply 298 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1258.msg37081;topicseen#msg37081 , during World War II, pizzerias apparently used whatever flours they could get their hands on. So, there must have been some kind of scarcity. But, in general, it looks like the flours at the time were relatively low or medium in protein, malted, bleached and bromated. However, I do not believe that the all-purpose flours at the time were bromated. That is still the case today.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for referencing Evelyne Slomon's post at Reply 298.  I might have to try Evelyne's Lombardi formula after I try a Lombardi pizza. 

When I was looking for old photos of pizzas I came across the photo posted below.  From what I read that was supposed to be Lombardi's years ago.  I think in a few days I will be able to taste a Grimaldi's pizza.

Norma

Edit:  I made a mistake in the photo I posted.  The photo shows what would have been where Grimaldi's pizzeria is now 185 years ago. https://ephemeralnewyork.wordpress.com/2015/07/20/what-brooklyn-looked-like-in-summer-1820/ 
« Last Edit: August 12, 2015, 05:59:06 AM by norma427 »

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23605
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #163 on: August 12, 2015, 09:25:36 AM »
Peter,

Thanks for referencing Evelyne Slomon's post at Reply 298.  I might have to try Evelyne's Lombardi formula after I try a Lombardi pizza. 

Norma
Norma,

If you search Evelyne's posts on the NY board using Lombardi as a search term, you should find other posts where she described the Lombardi dough formulations. I believe I included those posts in Reply 37 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14920.msg148840#msg148840 but you might find what you are looking for quicker from an independent search.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24409
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #164 on: August 12, 2015, 10:36:49 AM »
Norma,

If you search Evelyne's posts on the NY board using Lombardi as a search term, you should find other posts where she described the Lombardi dough formulations. I believe I included those posts in Reply 37 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14920.msg148840#msg148840 but you might find what you are looking for quicker from an independent search.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks again!  I forgot about all of the posts linked to Evelyne by you right here on this thread at Reply 37.  I will look through those posts.

I talked with Madeline this morning and it was interesting what she had to say about Louie (Gigi) Lamonica.  http://lamonicaspizzadough.com/www.lamonicaspizzadough.com/Home.html The connection with Louie and Frank Mastro is very interesting to me.  I told Madeline that Lamonica's now makes dough in CA and Italy and even has distributions to AU.  Of course Madeline talked about many other things I didn't know before.  I gave Madeline Lamonica's phone number in Brooklyn, NY.

Norma


 

pizzapan