Author Topic: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza  (Read 494874 times)

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Offline foster444

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #240 on: September 16, 2005, 06:06:02 PM »
One other point comes to mind, Pete and Ozzie:

Your pizzas may well be a hell of a lot better than anything you would ever find in NY.  I would think that a real chef would scoff at what you would find in our local pizzerias.  The New York Times often runs recipes for pizzas which bear no resemblance to pizzeria pizza and to one in the know, these would be much more refined cuisine.

The kick for me when I make pizza is to make it as close to the real thing as possible.  I could go down the street and get the real thing for $7.  But to make my own just as well (I'm getting very close) is satisfying.

In my roundabout way, I'm saying that you can make any pizza you want and it's wonderful.  But if you're cooking to a style, just as when you're brewing beer to a style, you are trying to emulate that style to the greatest extent possible.

If you want to  brew an English Pale Ale or an Oktoberfest, you want the result to be within the parameters of that style.

If you want to brew for the hell of it, or to concoct your own creation, the sky's the limit.

I hope I conveyed my point understandably.

You know part of it too, Pete, not to sound too chauvinistic, is that you can get pretty much anything here in NY in terms of ingredients.  It's easy to take for granted and not realize how hard things can be to find elsewhere.

I remember how hard it was to get a good pickle when I lived in Buffalo!  And pastrami?  Fuggedaboudit!

Bob


Offline foster444

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #241 on: September 16, 2005, 06:12:41 PM »
I once got a couple of slices in Toronto.

Yeccchhh!!!!

I think that was the first time I realized that there such a thing as "NY pizza."

(Sorry Toronto; great city, lousy pizza).

My recollection of the pizza in Buffalo was that it was indistinguishable from NY pizza.

This website has caused me to think about pizza more in a few weeks than I have in my whole life.

Bob

Offline OzPizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #242 on: September 16, 2005, 10:38:37 PM »
Had an excellent session last night. Might I add some back story for forster444. I have had more than my share of real NY pizza experiences, starting at as kid living in Westchester county in the 70's. For me there are some definite taste factors of the NY crust combined with use of cheese. The definitions breaks down into different variations on the theme from there depending who's making it.

I would say with this commercial caboolture mozzarella I tried last night was as good as you can get here. Sadly I didn't photograph anything† (mind you I do have a small nokia phone video of a slice I sent to a friend) because of the company I had. The whole milk had awesome stretch, perfect browning and great taste. I feel like I took another huge leap last night and am now regretting not getting any photos. Both pizza easily matched the browning of the store bought one Forster444 posted. Also, Forster if you go back to some of my other posts, you see much more ideal browning: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg15713.html#msg15713.

Here's the brief clip(low quality, 76k) for anyone who feels like downloading(opens with quicktime or realplayer):† http://members.ozemail.com.au/~jazzman/Pizza/Video014.3gp

« Last Edit: September 16, 2005, 10:48:44 PM by OzPizza »
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Offline foster444

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #243 on: September 16, 2005, 11:45:07 PM »
Ha!  Westchester!  You don't need me telling you about New York Pizza!

Where in Westchester did you live?  And how did you end up in Australia?

Offline OzPizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #244 on: September 17, 2005, 12:02:22 AM »
Ha! Westchester! You don't need me telling you about New York Pizza!

Where in Westchester did you live? And how did you end up in Australia?

Rye to be exact. My first post on the forum talks about a pizza restaurant called Cosmos that I last ate pizza at circa 1985. That particular pizza still has it's 'signature' taste in my mind from back then. I'd love to trace where the owners went and whether they still make pizza somewhere.
I was an Australian who's family moved to Rye, due to my fathers job which was for a company in NYC. 10 years later they moved him to another office outside the US and I eventually ended up back here circa 1990.
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Offline foster444

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #245 on: September 17, 2005, 07:54:52 AM »
A stone's throw from where I sit as I type this.  I've skated my share at Playland.

Offline OzPizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #246 on: September 17, 2005, 09:38:03 PM »
A stone's throw from where I sit as I type this. I've skated my share at Playland.

Well, there you go. It's a small world hey. I still reflect on how neat it was as youngster to have an amusement park within 10 mins of where I lived :)
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Offline foster444

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #247 on: September 17, 2005, 09:42:31 PM »
Small world indeed, Ozzie.

Offline abc

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #248 on: September 21, 2005, 07:09:27 PM »
The NYC area has an abundance of the best mozzarella cheeses, including Grande in many places. They are among the best in the country. Peter

hi, i'm new... i'm in NYC, and perhaps i shouldn't have just said that,.. but where can i pick up loaves of mozz?  i haven't seen Grande... i emailed grande last week...

i had been buying 5lb pollyo low moisture on and off for about 10 yrs, at local italian food marts and particularly BJ wholesale... about 10-12dollars for the loaf.. but never liked that it had zero aroma and grease when baked on a pizza like 'real' pizzas.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #249 on: September 22, 2005, 12:52:46 PM »
abc,

Welcome to the forum.

I would be very happy for our members to be able to use the finest ingredients on a Lehmann NY style pizza dough, including the best cheeses. I was thinking of Dom DeMarco at DiFara's when I mentioned Grande cheese in my earlier post, since Dom uses the Grande line of cheeses for his pizzas.

As you may know, Grande cheese is basically distributed to professional pizza operators. In some parts of the country, it is also sold at retail, but not widely so. In most cases, the cheeses at the retail level are either private branded or otherwise do not bear the Grande label. So the only way to know if it is Grande inside the package is to ask.

On the outside chance that I might be able to identify a source of the Grande product for you, this morning I called a food distributor, DiCarlo Food Service, an independent food distributor who services the NY metro area. They carry a lot of pizza ingredients and are located in Holtsville, NY, which I understand is in Long Island. They even have a website, at http://www.dicarlofood.com/.  When I called this morning, I was told that they have a cash-and-carry store next to their main facility, where individuals can purchase from among the items carried in the store. They do not carry everything listed at their website, only the most popular items. The store is open Monday through Saturday, from 8 AM to 5 PM. They take no checks but will take Visa and Master Charge for purchases in excess of $25. I was told that one should call them, at 631-758-6000, ext. 350, to inquire as to any particular product(s) and availability, and make any necessary pre-arrangements for pickup.

I spoke mostly to Gabe in the store. He told me that they do carry the Grande cheese, but only by the case, which constitutes several "bricks" weighing a total of 55 pounds. When I asked him if he could help me find a source of the cheese in smaller quantity, he suggested inquiring in local pizzerias that use the Grande and try to prevail upon them to sell in small amounts. He also indicated that they carry a DiCarlo whole-milk mozzarella cheese that they will sell in smaller amounts. I suspect this is the type of cheese they sell to pizza operators who do not wish to pay premium prices for Grande, especially when there are any number of local sources of mozzarella cheeses of acceptable quality with better pricing.

I was also interested to learn from Gabe that the store carries many other pizza ingredients and brands of interest to us as home pizza makers. They include the Escalon tomatoes (including 6-in-1s), and a good part of the Stanislaus line of tomatoes (7/11, Alta Cucina, etc.). These are sold by the can (#10) or by the case. They do not carry any DOP San Marzano tomatoes in the store but do carry a more generic San Marzano canned tomato. (The DiCarlo website, however, shows that they carry the Vantia DOP SMs; maybe they will sell it if specifically requested).

DiCarlo's also carries the Hormel brand pepperoni and their own house brand in sliced form in a 10-pound bag. When I asked about flours, I was told that they carry the All Trumps flour (a good high-gluten flour for use in the Lehmann or any other NY style dough recipe) and also the Caputo 00 flour. When I inquired whether the Caputo flour was in the 25 kilo bag (55 pounds), he said that it was in one-kilo bags with a blue label. I believe this is not the same Caputo 00 flour most of us have been using at this forum, but rather another "blue label" 00 Caputo flour that I have heard is being tested in the U.S. and is more like all-purpose flour. But don't quote me on that, since I may not have it right.

I did not inquire as to pricing. At this point I was just trying to scope out the operation to see if they have or do anything that might be of benefit to our members who live in the NY area and are looking for the best pizza ingredients. From what I can see at this point, it looks like one could make a killer Lehmann NY pie with just the ingredients from DiCarlo's. For those who are interested, my best advice is to call DiCarlo's and see what they have to offer and double check on all the groundrules relating to cash-and-carry purchase from them. It might also be useful to inquire whether they will sell stuff shown on their website but not carried in the store.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 22, 2005, 01:15:50 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline abc

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #250 on: September 23, 2005, 01:05:03 AM »
how come none of the recipes seem to be tabulated in metric measure... isn't it more accurate?

Offline OzPizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #251 on: September 23, 2005, 03:20:22 AM »
Actually, living in a metric environment for some time myself and recently buying digital scales, I've actually found oz to be a finer measurement for scales at least. My first scale only went to 5g or 1/4 oz, which wasn't fine enough for the oz measurements in the recipe calcs done by Pete. I ended up then buying a higher resolution .5g scale that now allows me to go down to .01 oz.
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #252 on: September 23, 2005, 09:35:07 AM »
I suppose it depends on the scale. On my scale, grams seem to be more accurate, and when a recipe recites ingredients by grams, I just slide a little switch to the grams mode.

I have recited my recipes in ounces rather than grams because most of our members appear to be located in the U.S. and are more familiar with the U.S. standard. I know that one ounce equals 28.35 grams, so when I want to switch from ounces to grams (and vice versa), that is the conversion factor I use. If basic recipes, including the Lehmann recipe, are on a spreadsheet, the spreadsheet can also be used to do the conversions. Maybe I will indicate grams in future recipes since we now have far more members abroad than when I first joined the forum when there were only around a couple hundred members. Thanks for the thought, abc.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 25, 2005, 02:04:09 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline abc

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #253 on: September 25, 2005, 03:06:47 AM »
i got a Myweigh 7001dx it breaks down decimal oz. in '5's  for ex.   .05oz.

i needed .0383 oz and it won't do it...

so i guess from now on i'll convert numbers like .0383 into grams.


anyway, i tried making a 18" dough ball, and in 24 hrs in a fridge at around 45degrees F, where the dough was 80degrees F after mixing via kitchenAid Ultra, the dough had some alcohol smell... but i think i put too much saf IDY because my scale could only report .05oz, and i needed .0383 oz.  so i eyed something in bet. .0383 and .05 

after baking, the finished dough still did have some alcohol in spots... 

it will also be the last time i try my stone sitting on the oven floor...   the top of my pizza was not done, I think this is due to it being too low position in the oven... however, it will mean i cannot make 18" pies anymore because when I raise the position above the oven floor, the protrusion of my convection fan reduces my oven depth... back to smaller pies.

the other two issues w/ the first attempt dough are that i didn't get an open crumb, it was rather tight... I hand toss it and i'm very light on the pressure... i suspect i over kneaded w/ the mixer.  total time was about 13-15 min.

I used an autolyse (10min) after 2 min of combining ingredients, then adding the oil, salt, and concluding in a 10-12min final mix at speed 2 & some 3.

either i over mixed or i shouldn't go to speed3.

hydration 63%...  my first time using pcts btw, and it yielded a dough i'd previously would have added more flour into.


the second issue is, the dough was too extensible for my liking, gravity could have almost pulled it apart...  this is after 60min of rest out of the fridge.

i'd like to tighten it up.


oh, no sugar but i used 2tsp of malt.  could have left this kind of dough for 48 + hrs right?


so the 4 things i want to address

1. alcohol overfermentation
2. more open crumb
3. less extensibility
4. hoped for more oven spring

the dough has a lot of potential, it offered the most crackle that i've experienced while using the same high gluten flour while other recipes had not.

I'll make a 16" next.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #254 on: September 25, 2005, 02:07:59 PM »
abc,

You make some good and valid points. Perhaps the following comments based on my experience will offer some guidance.

Scales. As between ounces and grams, I believe that grams are more accurate. By that, I mean I can measure grams more accurately on my scale than trying to split 0.05 ounce increments, although with experience I have managed to come pretty close. However, trying to achieve great accuracy with digital scales for small amounts of lightweight ingredients is prone to error. Unless you have an extremely accurate scale or a specialty scale (like the one mentioned below), you are unlikely to be able to accurately measure small amounts of lightweight ingredients. Tom Lehmann once told me in a Q/A exchange that “even a slight breeze on the scale can upset your scaling accuracy by a significant margin.” Also, the weights of ingredients like sugar, salt and yeast can vary, due to such factors as humidity, moisture and age (e.g., drying out).

For the above reasons, I usually use conversion data for converting between ounces (or grams) and volumes for the lightweight ingredients used in small quantities. The conversion data comes either from efforts of our members, including me, who have weighed one-cup quantities of ingredients like salt, sugar, yeast, and oil and converted them to one-teaspoon quantities, or from the information provided on the labeling for packages or bottles of such ingredients. However, even the conversions can be inaccurately used because a weight might be converted to an oddball volume measurement for which there is no standard measuring spoon in most homes, such as 1/16 teaspoon or 1/6 teaspoon. This forces us to make our best estimates.

I might add that there are specialized scales for weighing very small amounts of lightweight ingredients. One of our members, pftaylor, has a Frieling AccuBalance 401 scale that has a 250g./8 oz. capacity in 0.1 g./0.005 oz. increments. I suspect that using such a scale will produce more accurate weight measurements than the conversion data I use, but the differences are unlikely to materially alter the outcome of any dough that I will make. So, my advice is not to worry about trying for extreme accuracy for small amounts of lightweight ingredients. You can’t achieve it as a practical matter, so close is good enough. If†you were a professional pizza operator making hundreds of pounds of dough daily, then you would be able to achieve greater accuracy because you would be using much larger amounts of everything and the error rate will be lower as a result.

Stand Mixers and Mixing Speeds. My KitchenAid stand mixer has ten speeds, labeled Stir, 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10. There are odd-numbered speeds, they just aren’t labeled. In my early days experimenting with the Lehmann dough recipe, I used speeds 2 and 3 more than I do today. I now also try to keep the total knead time down as much as possible, to around 8 minutes, so as not to overknead the dough and to rely more on biochemical gluten development. So, today, I am more likely to use the Stir, 1 and 2 speeds, and occasionally a few seconds at 3 speed at the end of the kneading process if the dough looks and feels like it might need it. Using 13-15 minutes of total knead time and speeds 2 or 3 for a good part of the total time is likely to result in an overkneaded dough, and this will show up in the form of a tight crumb in the finished crust with few, large, irregular-shaped holes, even though a high hydration level is used.

Autolyse. I have experimented on occasion using autolyse (the classic Calval autolyse) with the basic Lehmann dough recipe. However, I have not personally achieved significant advantages to suggest that I should use it all the time in the basic Lehmann basic dough. My experience has been that the crumb takes on more of a bread-like character. I might also mention that one purpose of using the autolyse is to reduce the total knead time. So using an autolyse with a long knead time somewhat defeats its purpose and is likely to contribute to a more dense, less porous crumb.

Extensibility of the Lehmann Dough. As fond as I am of the Lehmann dough, my experience with the Lehmann dough is that, in a home setting at least, it is temperature sensitive and sometimes prone to above-average extensibility (stretchiness). I have reported on this on several occasions. The Lehmann dough likes cool temperatures—in the water (just cool enough to ensure a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F) and low cooler/refrigerator temperatures (between 35-40 degrees F). It also doesn’t need any added sugar, although it can be added, at around 1-2% by weight of flour, if the dough is to go beyond 48 hours or so. You indicated, abc, that you used malt. You didn’t indicate whether the malt was diastatic or non-diastatic. The diastatic form of malt provides additional amylase enzymes to help extract more sugar from the starch in the flour. Most bread flours today are already malted at the miller’s so it is usually not necessary to add more since this can lead to a more slack dough. If the malt was the non-diastatic form, it offers no additional amylase enzyme and behaves essentially like any other sugar. Like any other sugar, if used in excess of what the yeast really needs, it can adversely affect the fermentation process and the outcome of the finished product.

My best advice for the next Lehmann pizza is not to worry about the small weights of ingredients, stick with the 63% hydration level (at least for now), cut back on the mixing speed and duration of knead, try to keep the finished dough on the cool side as much as possible, and dispense with the autolyse and malt. You can always decide at a later date to reintroduce either the autolyse or the malt or to reduce the hydration ratio. If the extensibility is still too high after these changes, you might consider using the dough a bit sooner next time, say, 16-18 hours.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 25, 2005, 02:17:11 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline abc

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #255 on: September 25, 2005, 02:31:06 PM »
abc,


Autolyse. I have experimented on occasion using autolyse (the classic Calval autolyse) with the basic Lehmann dough recipe. However, I have not personally achieved significant advantages to suggest that I should use it all the time in the basic Lehmann basic dough. My experience has been that the crumb takes on more of a bread-like character. I might also mention that one purpose of using the autolyse is to reduce the total knead time. So using an autolyse with a long knead time somewhat defeats its purpose and is likely to contribute to a more dense, less porous crumb.


you're a comprehensive writer, take my hat off you... I know it takes a lot of time and I'm sure you reread and modify and grammar check and all.

i haven't finished your informative post but wanted to comment on the autolyse dictating less kneading...  i continued to run my mixer because the dough looked like it needed that much time as i gave it to get somewhat smooth and elastic... and i stopped when though it didn't look as smooth and elastic as pictures of smooth and elastic are to be, it looked like it wasn't going to get any better if i'd continue to run it for another 10min.  i was tempted to add half a tablespoon more of flour to dry it up some but chose not to.  the temp of the dough from beginning to end was from 79 to 80.5 degrees.

Offline abc

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #256 on: September 25, 2005, 02:54:29 PM »
Stand Mixers and Mixing Speeds. My KitchenAid stand mixer has ten speeds, labeled Stir, 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10. There are odd-numbered speeds, they just arenít labeled. In my early days experimenting with the Lehmann dough recipe, I used speeds 2 and 3 more than I do today. I now also try to keep the total knead time down as much as possible, to around 8 minutes, so as not to overknead the dough and to rely more on biochemical gluten development. So, today, I am more likely to use the Stir, 1 and 2 speeds, and occasionally a few seconds at 3 speed at the end of the kneading process if the dough looks and feels like it might need it. Using 13-15 minutes of total knead time and speeds 2 or 3 for a good part of the total time is likely to result in an overkneaded dough, and this will show up in the form of a tight crumb in the finished crust with few, large, irregular-shaped holes, even though a high hydration level is used.


one thing i've been lead to believe though is you have to knead to develop the gluten for a chewy finished product that puts up a bit of fight to your biting jaw...
should i be taking the approach of almost just 'mix to combine'?

Offline abc

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #257 on: September 25, 2005, 03:17:38 PM »
Extensibility of the Lehmann Dough. As fond as I am of the Lehmann dough, my experience with the Lehmann dough is that, in a home setting at least, it is temperature sensitive and sometimes prone to above-average extensibility (stretchiness). I have reported on this on several occasions. The Lehmann dough likes cool temperaturesóin the water (just cool enough to ensure a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F) and low cooler/refrigerator temperatures (between 35-40 degrees F). It also doesnít need any added sugar, although it can be added, at around 1-2% by weight of flour, if the dough is to go beyond 48 hours or so. You indicated, abc, that you used malt. You didnít indicate whether the malt was diastatic or non-diastatic. The diastatic form of malt provides additional amylase enzymes to help extract more sugar from the starch in the flour. Most bread flours today are already malted at the millerís so it is usually not necessary to add more since this can lead to a more slack dough. If the malt was the non-diastatic form, it offers no additional amylase enzyme and behaves essentially like any other sugar. Like any other sugar, if used in excess of what the yeast really needs, it can adversely affect the fermentation process and the outcome of the finished product.
 
it's diastatic.  great catch Pete, i will leave out this malt and w/ other adjustments, see if the dough can tighten up.

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #258 on: September 25, 2005, 04:05:42 PM »
abc,

I don't mind putting the time and attention into what I write on the forum if I think it will help someone avoid problem areas or it results in someone being able to make a better pizza. Once you get the dough part right, you're in good shape for the rest of your pizza making career :).

It did occur to me that you didn't use a long enough autolyse. I have written many times on this topic and if it will help I will tell you how I have used autolyse in the context of the Lehmann doughs. Basically, it is this. The Calvel autolyse approach as I have been using it entails combining one-third of the flour, one-third of the water, and the yeast (commercial or a preferment), following which the dough is subjected to an autolyse rest period of 30 minutes. Then the rest of the flour and the rest of the water are added to the dough and thoroughly combined, and the process is completed by adding the olive oil (if used) and kneading that into the dough (about 2 minutes), and finally the salt. The dough is then kneaded, for about 6-7 minutes (at the 1 setting), or until the dough achieves the desired characteristics (shiny, smooth, elastic and tacky). At this point, if the dough is to be retarded, it can be subjected to another rest period (not technically an autolyse at this point) of about 15 minutes before placing the dough in the refrigerator.

There are many possible variations of the above autolyse, many of which came into being simply because bread bakers (for whom the autolyse concept was developed by Professor Calvel) didn't want to sit around for a half hour waiting for the autolyse to be completed. So they invented all sorts of short cuts. And, for the most part, they all seem to work. I have searched the PMQ.com website and done a few Google searches and have not been able to find evidence of autolyse being used by professional pizza operators, at least not in the classical sense. It seems to be more limited to artisan bread bakers.

As far as the dough kneading is concerned, you might find the following excerpt, from Mr. Lehmann himself, to be useful:

You want to mix the dough just enough so that when you take an egg size piece of dough, and form it into a ball, then holding it in two hands, with the thumbs together (pointing away from you), and on top of the dough piece, gently pull the thumbs apart. The dough skin should not tear. If it tears, you should mix the dough a little longer. The dough will have a decidedly satiny appearance. Prior to the satiny appearance the dough will have more of a curdled appearance. Do not stretch the dough out between the fingers to form a gluten film. This test for development is for bread and roll doughs, not pizza. Pizza dough is not fully developed at the mixer, instead, it receives most of its development through biochemical gluten development (fermentation). After the dough has been in the cooler for about 24 hours, you should be able to stretch the dough in your fingers and form a very thin, translucent gluten film.

I might add that not everyone agrees with Tom L. on the above, including several well know cookbook authors, writers and cable gurus who use the gluten film test for pizza dough.

Now that you have indicated the type of malt you used (diastatic), I can tell you that 2 teaspoons for about 18 ounces of flour (the amount I believe your 18-inch dough recipe works out to be) comes to just over 1% by weight of flour. A more typical amount is 0.1-0.2%. So your level was 5-10 times the usual recommended amount. That might not have helped your dough.

Peter



« Last Edit: September 25, 2005, 04:52:03 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline JF_Aidan_Pryde

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #259 on: September 27, 2005, 12:29:35 PM »
I would say with this commercial caboolture mozzarella I tried last night was as good as you can get here.

Hi Oz, where can I get this caboolture mozz you talk about? Thanks!


 

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