Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza

[Pete-zza]

abc,

First of all, I am glad to hear that you are now having good success with the Lehmann recipe. No matter how good a recipe may be and look on paper, and no matter how good your dough has turned out, there are other factors, such as oven dynamics, that can make the recipe a success or a failure. And, since ovens differ so much from one to the other, the pizza usually has to be adapted to the unique oven situation that the user has to work with. Even then there are limitations. Once the dough comes off the hook and goes into the refrigerator, its DNA is essentially fixed and unalterable. That means that you have to work on the "topping dynamics" until such time as you figure out how to improve the oven dynamics, however that is achieved. In my last post on this topic I mentioned the possibility of altering the layering sequence of the ingredients used to dress pizzas. After I posted that, it occurred to me that it is also possible to use colder or warmer toppings, even sauces, to better adapt the pizza to the oven configuration. Some members put the cheeses in the refrigerator, and even in the freezer for a while, and put the cheeses on the pizza cold. I have also read of members who put the sauces on while they are warm, maybe even hot. These, too, are concessions to the oven, since they would not be needed if the oven was more accommodating. Ideally, I would much prefer to get the oven situation perfected as much as possible rather than going through all kinds of contortions to adapt the pizza to the oven's shortcomings and deficiencies.

In my case, my usual practice with the larger Lehmann pizzas (above 14 inches) has been to bake the pizza on a screen placed on an upper rack position and to shift the pizza onto a preheated stone on the lowest oven rack position once the pizza sets up and the rim of the pizza starts to expand and turn brown (in reaction to the oven spring) and the cheeses start to bubble. That usually takes about 5 minutes or so. The time on the stone is about 2 minutes, or for so long as it takes to provide decent bottom crust browning without overbaking the top of the pizza. This approach will produce decent and fairly uniform bottom browning but, because a screen is used, the bottom crust will not be quite as crispy as using only the stone. On occasion I will put the broiler on to balance bottom and top baking or to increase the color of the crust at the rim. With this technique, I have been able to use sauce, cheeses, and toppings at normal room temperature, and I have not found a need to use pre-baking, although I am open to the idea. Until such time as I find it useful to reconfigure my oven to make the bigger pizzas without the need to use screens, I suspect that I will continue to use my current approach. I will however attempt over time to play around with the oven-within-oven approach to see if I can make the pizzas even better. Otherwise there is no point in doing it. I would love to be able to just shape a pizza as usual, put on the toppings in a normal way, and bake it as usual, just as is done in the pizzerias. Until then, if it ever comes, I will do whatever works.

I'd love to see the photos of your recent pizza if you are able to post them.

Peter

[AP]

I made this yesterday:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5635.html#msg5635

I was going to take pictures but we ate it too fast.  It was the best dough I've ever made.  It was better than what I get from trader joes in the plastic bags for a dollar.  I used Stone-buhr bread flour and bob's red mill VWG.  I've ordered some KASL but don't have it yet (I even asked for a bag of caputo for christmas).  It sat in the fridge for 24 hours.  I pulled it out of the fridge about 1.5 hours before baking while my oven heated up. 

I made a couple interesting observations: 1) normally when I place the dough on the stone I start as far back as possible as to not run out of room at the front.  The dough toward the back of the stone (and back of the oven, of course) was positively beautiful.  Also, I have a rectangular baking stone and I noticed that a round pizza stone is probably a good idea for round pizzas.  Hard to say though -- because the oven is rectangular.  Regardless, the closer the pizza was to the edge of the stone the better the crust came out.  My oven is a whirlpool with a bottom broiler.  I haven't seen how hot I can get it with the broiler on.  I think it tops out at 525.  2) I have a kitchenaid pro 600 -- at times with some of these doughs it sounds like it's going to burst into pieces.  A little bit of oil in the dough seems to ease things up though...even a teaspoon in a Lb of flour seems to make a difference.

I used ADY and didn't proof it.  I adjusted my ADY based on a table that I found on the web here: http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm

I have a new adaptation going in the fridge right now which is kind of the a16 formula with my stone-buhr/vwg substitute (Sacrilege, I know).  I proofed that yeast.  It got much bigger in the fridge.  I've also toyed around with water temp.  Is there any specific guideline for what your ending internal dough temperature should be before you hit the fridge?  Mine have been at around 80 degrees F after 10 minutes with the dough hook on speed 1.

Ok thanks again for the formula.

AP

[Pete-zza]

AP,

I'm glad to hear that the Stone Buhr/VWG combination worked out for you. I think you will notice a difference when you try the KASL. I'd be interested to get your feedback when you get to try it out in a Lehmann recipe.

The finished dough temperature that I strive for is around 80 degrees F. It can range around that number by several degrees on each side, but I would rather err on the low side for a Lehmann style dough because it will ferment faster if the dough is much above 80 degrees F.

Peter

[Wallman]

Here's my latest stab at Tom L. New York Style pizza, with thanks to Peter for the recipe tips.  I took the Peter's basic Tom L. recipe for a 16 inch pie, using the following baker's percentages:

Flour 100%, 12.10 oz. (KASL)
Water 63%, 7.62 oz.
Salt 1.75%, 0.21 oz. (just over 1 t.)
Oil 1.00%, 0.12 oz. (about 3/4 t.)
IDY 0.30%, 0.04 oz. (about 1/3 t.)

I upped the yeast a little bit from the basic recipe to get a little more rise to the crust, but not quite as much rise as I got when following Canadave's recipe (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2175.0.html). Don't get me wrong, Dave's recipe is very good, I was just trying for something in between.

I followed Pete's basic mixing instructions using a KitchenAid mixer, making dough for 2 pies, in 2 batches and let the dough balls rise for 48 hours.  I think the 2-day rise really helped, the dough was very easy to work with and streched really thin. In fact, on one pizza it was a little too thin and some of the topping broke through on to my tiles, but that's why God invented self-cleaning ovens. I think I need to work on my hand tossing skills a bit 

I topped them with an uncooked sauce of Contadina tomatoes, pizza spices, garlic salt, dried onion, pepper, olive oil and red wine, moz. cheese (a mix of fresh and shreaded from Costco), mushrooms, and pepperoni.  I stretched the pies on a work surface dusted with Semolina flour which gave a little crunch to the crust, then baked them for about 8 minutes in a 515-530 F oven.  There was a nice crumb in the crust which was very flavorful.  Here are some pics --

[Pete-zza]

Wally,

Very nice job.

Unless you are currently in a warm climate, it does make some sense to increase the yeast a bit. However, if you take a look at Reply # 280 at page 15 of this thread, you will see that I tried using 0.17% yeast (IDY) in a 16-inch Lehmann dough and got very good oven spring and a nice, open and airy crumb. The yeast is just one of the factors, and so long as there is enough in the dough to support a good oven spring when the dough is exposed to the oven heat (or pizza stone/tiles), you will get a decent rise in the crust. In the typical Lehmann dough, the yeast is fed only by sugar that for the most part has to be extracted from the flour itself, and not from added sugar. So, unless you go out beyond, say, 72 hours, there will usually be enough yeast in the dough at the time of baking to support a decent oven spring.

Peter

[chiguy]

 Wallman,
  A nice job on the pizza, i like the color of the sauce. I also like the balance between the chhese, sauce and other ingrediants.    Chiguy

[abc]

abc,


I'd love to see the photos of your recent pizza if you are able to post them.

Peter

happy holiday.  here's that parbaked 16" hand tossed pizza.  It was with a layer of polly-o low moisture mozz, then drained uncooked tomatoes seasoned the night before, fresh spinach sauted in olive oil and garlic, a bit of fresh sliced carando pepperoni, chopped fresh onions, chopped fresh garlic with olive oil, oregano.  Topped with fresh mozzarella for the final bake until it made pools around the pie.

[AP]

Ok here are some shots of my go at Peter's VWG + bread flour.  Specifically, these are Stone-buhr brand bread flour and Bob's Red Mill Vital Wheat Gluten.  I ran these with non-proofed ADY under the dough hook for about 10 minutes.  I found that starting the dough with cold(er) water produces a better end product.  One dough I got up to 83 degrees before retarding in the fridge and I think the yeast was too spent at the beginning.  The dough expanded in the fridge significantly.  Starting with cold water, though, I could get the finished temp at 79-80 and didn't see as much action in the fridge.  All these pics were from dough retarded for 2 days.  I have some KASL coming on the 29th so I can't wait to see how those compare.  I'm still in shock that I can make this dough at home even without special flour.  Also; my oven was on "stand-by" at 500 F for about 2 hours...then I kick on the lower broiler while baking.  In my oven, turning on the broiler just means that the thermostat is fixed so the flame stays on regardless of temp.  I can get it up to 525 about.  Sorry I didn't get any really good crumb shots.

[AP]

Some others...same formula.

[Pete-zza]

AP,

Those are great looking pizzas. Whatever you are doing, it is working.

With regard to your comments concerning extensibility, I’d like to mention that although I have settled on a hydration percent of 63% for my own Lehmann NY style doughs, and frequently recite it in many of the Lehmann formulations, there is no particular magic to that number. The typical range for the Lehmann dough formulations is around 58-64% (give or take). While I haven't made many doughs at the lower end of that range, but quite a few at the upper end and using small amounts of yeast and using cool/cold water, I am coming to believe that you may get better extensibility (less stretchiness) by using a lower hydration percent instead of using either a small amount of yeast or cold/cool water. A lower hydration dough will usually ferment slower than a higher hydration dough, all other factors being equal. I will have to test the thesis out sometime.

I am curious to know why you have not been hydrating the active dry yeast (ADY). I assume you are using the ADY like instant dry yeast (IDY) by adding it directly to the flour. One of the main reasons ADY is proofed in water (warm), apart from testing its viability, is because ADY has more dead cells than IDY. It takes several minutes to get the live cells to the point where they can be effectively used. Otherwise, you have to rely on the moisture in the flour or the added water to hydrate the ADY. And neither IDY nor ADY likes to be shocked with cold water. In the case of IDY, putting it in with the flour mitigates that concern. Even then, it is a good idea to let the IDY and flour sit for a while before adding the cold water. I have read that some pizza operators do use ADY without first proofing it, but the logic for doing that was never explained.

I will be interested in the results you get when your King Arthur Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour arrives. But, either way, it is good to know that you have another option in those cases where high-gluten flour is unavailable.

Peter

[AP]

I wasn't proofing the ADY because I didn't want to give the yeast any advantage.  This is silly, I know.  In every other recipe I've made over the past 5 years I've always added my yeast to the 90-100F water before mixing in.  I guess the idea was that everything I had done before this was backwards and wrong...and now it was time to do things the opposite to make them right.  I'll probably just end up using IDY.  I'm also curious as to why most formulas mentioned here include IDY.  I suspect that it is because the IDY is less, more potent yeast cells.  This would give me equal power as the ADY without such a yeasty presence.  I could be completely wrong about that.  I believe yeast to be a woman of the night; I want her to get in, do her job, and leave without a trace.  (not that I have any experience with that...but I think it's a good analogy.)

I am curious to know something: If I were to knead by hand, how long would it take me to accomplish what my kitchenaid does on speed 1 in 10 minutes?  I have a feeling it would take a half hour.  Also -- do you think the heat of human hands provide an advantage or not to building gluten?

I can't say enough about what I've learned on this website in such a short time.  I even cracked open my "crust and crumb" book yesterday and couldn't believe how much more sense it all made.  Thanks again....I can't wait to report on my KASL and Caputo dough experiences.

[AP]

Oh -- I also wanted to note something about my pizza stone.  It is virtually the same shape as the cutting board you see in the second pic I posted.  Notice the browning of the crust on the long sides of [what would be] the stone and the opposite on the short sides.  I think I'm going to try to find a round stone for even heat around the round pizza.  Or start making rectangular pizzas.  I haven't quite mastered the pizza shaping thing... 

[Pete-zza]

AP,

There's no reason why you can't continue to use the ADY. I would just recommend that you proof it in a bit of warm water. I don't think that there is just one reason why you see IDY used more than ADY here on the forum. The industry is increasingly moving in the direction of using IDY but, apart from that, it is also more convenient to use because it can go directly in the flour, therby avoiding the need to set aside warm proofing water, combining it with the rest of the water after proofing, adding it to the dry ingredients, etc.

As for your question on kneading by hand, the knead time will depend of course on the amount of dough you are making but my experience is that it takes at least double the time of a stand mixer for a given dough ball weight. FYI, King Arthur does not recommend hand kneading for doughs made from the KASL. Only machines. I personally think that machine keading does a better job at gluten development than hand kneading, but that is just my own opinion. 

Peter

[Wallman]

Santa brought me a Soehnle Futura scale and I used it to make dough on Wednesday.  To be honest, the digitally measured crust, following Pete's basic 63% hydration recipe, didn't taste that different than the volumetric measured crust. But, since the crust tastes great either way, it was a successful pizza bake.  The scale does make it easy to make dough to Baker's percents. It is also a faster way to make dough since you can quickly measure the ingredients and get them into the mixer.  BTW, I measured a scooped cup of KASL and it weighted 5.5 oz.  I certainly wouldn't take this as the gospel since my sample was one cup! 

Hope everybody here has a happy New Year. I'll be bbq'ing (whole beef tenderloin for New Year's Eve and bone-in pork loin roast for New Year's Day) instead of making pizza, no disrespect to Pizzamaking.com'ers, but it's a holiday tradition in my household 

[Pete-zza]

Wally,

The most important ingredients to weigh on your new scale are the flour and water. Unless you are making large amounts of dough, the other ingredients are harder to weigh on the scale with a high degree of accuracy. For these ingredients, volumes are just as good.

For some time I have tried to post the volume equivalents to weights, so if you were using the volume equivalents I posted I'm glad to hear that they worked out. Some time you should weigh several "cups" of flour in succession and note the variations. I think you will then see the merit to using your scale to weigh things.

Peter

[Wallman]

Pete,
I did mainly get the scale for weighing flour, based on your recommendations oh master of the dough!  While making my dough the other day, I did measure the salt, oil and IDY and as you pointed out in an earlier post, the amounts are so small that blowing on the scale will make them change .01 of an oz.  My wife likes to bake, so the scale will certainly come in handy for other things, plus as I said, I think it helps speed up the measuring process -- which means I can get to the eating process, my favorite part!

[sebdesn]

Wallman,  If your scale does it ,you might use the metric system , grams are a lot easier to juggle around than oz.  and besides that, if you have a metric beaker the h2O is 1 gram per ml. so you dont have to weigh it.
Bud

[abc]

Here's my latest stab at Tom L. New York Style pizza, with thanks to Peter for the recipe tips.  I took the Peter's basic Tom L. recipe for a 16 inch pie, using the following baker's percentages:

Flour 100%, 12.10 oz. (KASL)
Water 63%, 7.62 oz.
Salt 1.75%, 0.21 oz. (just over 1 t.)
Oil 1.00%, 0.12 oz. (about 3/4 t.)
IDY 0.30%, 0.04 oz. (about 1/3 t.)

I upped the yeast a little bit from the basic recipe to get a little more rise to the crust, but not quite as much rise as I got when following Canadave's recipe (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2175.0.html). Don't get me wrong, Dave's recipe is very good, I was just trying for something in between.

I followed Pete's basic mixing instructions using a KitchenAid mixer, making dough for 2 pies, in 2 batches and let the dough balls rise for 48 hours.  I think the 2-day rise really helped, the dough was very easy to work with and streched really thin. In fact, on one pizza it was a little too thin and some of the topping broke through on to my tiles, but that's why God invented self-cleaning ovens. I think I need to work on my hand tossing skills a bit 

I topped them with an uncooked sauce of Contadina tomatoes, pizza spices, garlic salt, dried onion, pepper, olive oil and red wine, moz. cheese (a mix of fresh and shreaded from Costco), mushrooms, and pepperoni.  I stretched the pies on a work surface dusted with Semolina flour which gave a little crunch to the crust, then baked them for about 8 minutes in a 515-530 F oven.  There was a nice crumb in the crust which was very flavorful.  Here are some pics --

wall...  you put sauce first, then cheese right?
btw, what 'costco' cheese did you use.  from what i see they carry pollyo stuff, and maybe 1 more brand.  in both cases they have preshredded stuff.

your cheese looks really oily like most NY pizzerias.

[pam]

btw, what 'costco' cheese did you use.  from what i see they carry pollyo stuff, and maybe 1 more brand.  in both cases they have preshredded stuff.

I'm starting to wonder whether Costco doesn't carry different stuff in different parts of the country, because earlier someone mentioned they picked up Conagra "Full Power" high-gluten flour at Costco and the only Conagra "high gluten" flour available at the local Costco isn't their "Full Power" and it ain't high gluten (it's only 10% protein) , someone else mentioned their local Costco carries All Trumps, which the one here doesn't (at least I've never seen it, and I'm in there at least once a week) , and some of you are apparently able to get Polly-O at your local Costco, and the only Polly-O they carry here is the string cheese, which I find to be somewhat drier and less creamy than the 1 lb blocks I buy at Kroger.

[Wallman]

wall...  you put sauce first, then cheese right?
btw, what 'costco' cheese did you use.  from what i see they carry pollyo stuff, and maybe 1 more brand.  in both cases they have preshredded stuff.

your cheese looks really oily like most NY pizzerias.

I used the pre-shredded, I don't recall the name. It was in a big bag. The Costco by me, Northern VA, also stocks polly-o is big bricks and All Trumps.  I plan to Polly-O soon and when I run out of my 50 lb. bag of KASL, I'll get some All Trumps.  I did put the sauce on first. Some of the oil in the pictures may have also come from the pepperoni.  Not low fat, but tasty!