Author Topic: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza  (Read 456314 times)

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Offline Dartanian

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #340 on: January 09, 2006, 09:47:48 PM »
Hi Pete --

I was reading this thread some today and came across the discussion about how it is ideal for the dough to be between 80-85 F when it goes in to the fridge.  How do you figure out what the water temperature needs to be to get the dough at the right temperature?

Dartanian


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #341 on: January 10, 2006, 12:22:46 AM »
Dartanian,

That’s a topic that generates a lot of reactions whenever I discuss it. So, let me preface my reply to you by saying that finished dough temperature is more important to professional pizza operators than to home pizza makers, especially in the context of using cold fermentation of dough balls. Most professional pizza operators do not like to see their dough balls rise too much or too fast while under refrigeration. If the dough balls are too warm and rise too fast or too much, the dough balls can spread out and run together within the dough boxes. Dough balls that expand too much use up more real estate within the dough boxes. This can translate into a need to use more dough boxes. So, keeping dough balls on the cool side seems to work well for pizza operators who rely on cold fermentation. As it so happens, a finished dough temperature of 80-85 degrees F is considered optimal for fermentation purposes for bread and pizza dough. In a home environment you can even use 75-80 degrees F if you’d like. That's because home refrigerators tend to run several degrees warmer than professional coolers.

By contrast, in a home environment it is no big deal if a dough ball or a few dough balls ferment faster and rise faster because of a higher finished dough temperature. This may foreshorten the dough’s useful life but it is rarely fatal. And there are ways of compensating for this if you know what you are doing. It is also possible to use simple water temperature adjustments to compensate for seasonal variations that can affect dough temperature. And without doing a lot of mathematical calculations. Even professionals rely on simple water temperature adjustments, and especially if they are using employess who are not math-savvy to make their doughs.

If you would like to read more on this topic, I have written on it several times on the forum, including at Reply #3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,567.0.html, and at
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,486.msg4163.html#msg4163. And if you would like to hear from a real expert on this subject, you may want to take a look at this Q & A item by Tom Lehmann himself: http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 10, 2006, 12:26:19 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Dartanian

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #342 on: January 10, 2006, 06:53:01 AM »
Thanks, Peter.

Dartanian.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #343 on: January 18, 2006, 02:51:32 PM »
Recently, I took a first stab at making a “take-and-bake” version of the Lehmann NY style dough. I was not looking to make a take-and-bake pizza per se, but rather I was hoping to achieve one or both of the following objectives: 1) To be able to make one or more pizza rounds (“skins”) one of more days in advance, and to refrigerate them until used; and 2) to take the skins a step further and make fully-dressed, unbaked pizzas that can be transported to someone else’s place to be baked rather than in my own oven and without requiring a pizza stone or tiles or a peel (although in my case I might bring my peel to be on the safe side).

After having read about the take-and-bake industry and the ways that doughs are commonly formulated to allow transport of unbaked, fully-dressed pizzas from the take-and-bake shop or independent’s pizzeria to the consumer’s home, I concluded that possibly the take-and-bake approach was the way to accomplish the above objectives, and particularly the second objective.

So, I reformulated the basic Lehmann NY style dough to reflect the dough chemistry and physics that take-and-bake doughs seem to rely on for their success. What especially intrigued me is that take-and-bake pizzas are “designed” to permit the consumer to bake them in the consumer’s oven without the need for a pizza stone/tiles or peel. Typically, the pizza is baked on the center oven rack position, at an oven temperature of 425 degrees F, for about 10-18 minutes. A carrier, in the form of either a tray (such as a Pactiv brand take-and-bake tray) or a cardboard/parchment paper combination, is used to facilitate the loading of the pizza into the oven. Since I don’t have access to Pactiv trays (they are sold to professionals), I elected to use a homemade version that I fabricated from cardboard and parchment paper.

Being a novice at this sort of thing, I reformulated the Lehmann dough as best I could based on what I had learned, I made a skin (16-inches), placed it on the parchment paper/cardboard arrangement, placed the entire assembly (covered with plastic wrap) in the refrigerator for about a day, removed the plastic wrap, dressed the pizza (in a simple pepperoni style), and baked it. I even let the dressed pizza sit on my countertop, covered with plastic wrap, for about an hour before baking, to simulate the travel of the pizza from one point to another. The pizza was baked on the center oven rack of my oven, which had been preheated to 425 degrees F, for about 12 minutes. The pizza sagged at the side edges at the beginning, so it is something I will have to work on in my future attempts to make a better take-and-bake pizza. Maybe I can even get a few Pactiv trays to play around with.

The photos below show the finished Lehmann “take-and-bake” pizza. This is one of those cases where the photo belies the actual results. The pizza was better than the photos indicate. The finished pizza was quite delicious, with a thin, tasty crust, good crust color (top and bottom), and a reasonably decent crumb. It was also very chewy at the rim and crispy. If anything, the crust was too thin and crispy and, for me, a bit too chewy, and quite different overall from the normal Lehmann NY style pizzas I have made. However, in due course I hope to improve the formulation to deal with these issues. What I did learn, however, is that it is possible to make unbaked skins and refrigerate them for at least a day before using them, and possibly longer, and also to make an unbaked, fully-dressed pizza using such a skin that can travel to another location for baking in a standard home oven, at normal oven temperatures, and without requiring a pizza stone/tiles or a peel. More work needs to be done but that sounds pretty good to me for a start.

Peter

Offline Wallman

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #344 on: January 18, 2006, 09:29:24 PM »
Here's my latest stab at Tom L's NY Style Pizza. The 16 inch pie pictured below was made following Peter's basic recipe at 63% hydration with a 2 day rise in the fridge.  I used KASL flour for the dough and my wife's new Kitchenaide 11 c. food processor to mix the dough.  I think I may have over processed the dough slightly since the crust edge didn't rise quite as much as when I've used a stand mixer, the crust was also a little crisper than I wanted, but it tasted good.   

I dressed the pie with fresh moz. and canned mushrooms. I used an uncooked sauce using the Rosa tomatoes, pictured below, I found at a small Italian deli here in Manassas, 2 teaspoons of Penzy's pizza spice, 2 teaspoons sugar, 1 teaspoon olive oil, a shot or so of red wine, and a bit of fresh cracked pepper. I was disappointed in the sauce, it didn't really taste that great. It definitely need more salt (the tomatoes were unsalted).  The tomatoes cost $2.69 a can and I don't think they were really worth it. Redpack tasted better. 

Only  one problem with the pizza, I cracked the glass on my range door. A word to the wise, don't drip room temperature toppings on an oven door that has been heating at 530 F for over an hour!  Fortunately, I found an online store that sells replacement glass for Frigidaire ranges.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2006, 09:34:05 PM by Wallman »

Offline RockyMarciano

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #345 on: January 18, 2006, 10:18:00 PM »
Recently, I took a first stab at making a “take-and-bake” version of the Lehmann NY style dough. I was not looking to make a take-and-bake pizza per se, but rather I was hoping to achieve one or both of the following objectives: 1) To be able to make one or more pizza rounds (“skins”) one of more days in advance, and to refrigerate them until used; and 2) to take the skins a step further and make fully-dressed, unbaked pizzas that can be transported to someone else’s place to be baked rather than in my own oven and without requiring a pizza stone or tiles or a peel (although in my case I might bring my peel to be on the safe side).

After having read about the take-and-bake industry and the ways that doughs are commonly formulated to allow transport of unbaked, fully-dressed pizzas from the take-and-bake shop or independent’s pizzeria to the consumer’s home, I concluded that possibly the take-and-bake approach was the way to accomplish the above objectives, and particularly the second objective.

So, I reformulated the basic Lehmann NY style dough to reflect the dough chemistry and physics that take-and-bake doughs seem to rely on for their success. What especially intrigued me is that take-and-bake pizzas are “designed” to permit the consumer to bake them in the consumer’s oven without the need for a pizza stone/tiles or peel. Typically, the pizza is baked on the center oven rack position, at an oven temperature of 425 degrees F, for about 10-18 minutes. A carrier, in the form of either a tray (such as a Pactiv brand take-and-bake tray) or a cardboard/parchment paper combination, is used to facilitate the loading of the pizza into the oven. Since I don’t have access to Pactiv trays (they are sold to professionals), I elected to use a homemade version that I fabricated from cardboard and parchment paper.

Being a novice at this sort of thing, I reformulated the Lehmann dough as best I could based on what I had learned, I made a skin (16-inches), placed it on the parchment paper/cardboard arrangement, placed the entire assembly (covered with plastic wrap) in the refrigerator for about a day, removed the plastic wrap, dressed the pizza (in a simple pepperoni style), and baked it. I even let the dressed pizza sit on my countertop, covered with plastic wrap, for about an hour before baking, to simulate the travel of the pizza from one point to another. The pizza was baked on the center oven rack of my oven, which had been preheated to 425 degrees F, for about 12 minutes. The pizza sagged at the side edges at the beginning, so it is something I will have to work on in my future attempts to make a better take-and-bake pizza. Maybe I can even get a few Pactiv trays to play around with.

The photos below show the finished Lehmann “take-and-bake” pizza. This is one of those cases where the photo belies the actual results. The pizza was better than the photos indicate. The finished pizza was quite delicious, with a thin, tasty crust, good crust color (top and bottom), and a reasonably decent crumb. It was also very chewy at the rim and crispy. If anything, the crust was too thin and crispy and, for me, a bit too chewy, and quite different overall from the normal Lehmann NY style pizzas I have made. However, in due course I hope to improve the formulation to deal with these issues. What I did learn, however, is that it is possible to make unbaked skins and refrigerate them for at least a day before using them, and possibly longer, and also to make an unbaked, fully-dressed pizza using such a skin that can travel to another location for baking in a standard home oven, at normal oven temperatures, and without requiring a pizza stone/tiles or a peel. More work needs to be done but that sounds pretty good to me for a start.

Peter

  What kind of cheese did you use and did you use a screen or pan?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #346 on: January 19, 2006, 07:27:05 AM »
Wally,

Nice job. The pizza looks great.

I recently posted a reply on using a food processor to knead dough for a NY style. In case you haven't seen it, it is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2189.0.html. I have also posted one or more replies on the subject on this thread relative to a Lehmann dough.

I notice what appears to be a Silpat or Matfer silicone baking sheet. I assume you use it solely as a kneading pad and to take advantage of the markings along the edge to measure your pizza. Is that correct?

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #347 on: January 19, 2006, 07:50:40 AM »
Rocky,

I didn't use either a pizza screen or pan. The unbaked pizza sat on top of the round sheet of parchment paper, which in turn sat on the round cardboard form. I shuffled both the pizza and parchment paper into the oven (directly onto the middle rack) and withdrew the cardboard form. The pizza baked entirely on the parchment paper. I was surprised to discover that the parchment paper had little effect on the browning of the bottom of the crust. I used the cardboard form to help remove the baked pizza from the oven, as is intended.

It occurred to me that I could have used a pizza screen in lieu of the parchment paper/cardboard form arrangement. If I had done so, I would have removed the screen as soon as the pizza firmed up so that I could more closely replicate the way that take-bake-pizzas are baked in a home oven. Of course, I could also have used a standard peel in lieu of the parchment paper/cardboard form arrangement. However, I was trying to get the full take-and-bake experience. In retrospect, even if I had used a peel, I might have kept the parchment paper because it seemed to provide some support, albeit minimal, for the unbaked pizza.

There are few take-and-bake places near me here in Texas, at least the "pure" take-and-bake places like Papa Murphy's, which is the largest of the lot. If I come across one not too far from home, I may give their take-and-bake pie a try. 

The cheese I used for my take-and-bake pizza was a shredded Dragone whole-milk, low-moisture mozzarella cheese.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 02, 2006, 01:19:36 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Buffalo

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #348 on: January 19, 2006, 09:28:43 AM »
Good Morning Pete-zza;
I am very interested in your experiments with the take and bake pizza.  Your sample photo shows a great looking pizza.  Will you share your reformulated Lehmann recipe, or is it in too early an experimental stage?  Did the bottom brown nicely using the parchment paper?  I am interested in all the process steps you are willing to share in this experiment.
Thank You
Buffalo

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #349 on: January 19, 2006, 11:54:57 AM »
Buffalo,

I intentionally did not post the formulation I used because I felt that it would be premature, and I was not entirely satisfied with it. I might mention, however, that reformulating the Lehmann dough was not new with me. For example, see http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/noframes/read/8346. Also, if you go to the PMQ RECIPE BANK at http://www.pmq.com/recipe/view_category.php?id=2, at pages 1 and 2, you will see a couple more Lehmann take-and-bake dough formulations. My version was quite a bit different in that I used a yeasted version rather than one using a different leavening system (such as WRISE), plus I made other changes.

By way of background, I discovered that take-and-bake pizzas can be quite finicky. One of the biggest problems that take-and-bake operators seem to have is coming up with an unbaked fully-dressed pizza that can tolerate a fair amount of "abuse" by the consumer. This includes leaving an unbaked pizza in the back seat of a car for a few hours in the middle of summer, leaving the unbaked pizza in the refrigerator or on a kitchen counter too long before baking, baking the pizza when the dough is too cold (the typical instructions for baking even suggest checking the pizza for bubbling during the first few minutes of baking, and puncturing them with a fork if they appear), or freezing the pizza instead of baking it. Whatever dough is used, it must take these possibilities into account. Also, take-and-bake doughs often have short fermentation times, so the finished crust may not have as much flavor as a typical pizzeria crust.

From my reading, I learned that take-and-bake pizzas are specially adapted to address all or most of the above concerns. For example, take-and-bake doughs usually use high-gluten flour, which seems to best tolerate normal customer abuse; small amounts of yeast, which prevents overfermentation of the dough for its normal shelf life and minimizes gassiness in the dough; fairly high levels of sugar, to feed the yeast over its intended shelf life and to provide sugar for crust browning purposes in a normal home oven; and fairly thick pizza sauces, to prevent leaching of water from the sauce into the dough during transport of the pizza and/or if the dough sits around too long before baking. Some take-and-bake pizza doughs, especially those from big firms that specialize in that style, also use special leavening agents (e.g., WRISE) that take effect only when the pizza is in the oven being baked. The use of a leavening agent is somewhat like a belt-and-suspenders approach in the event the dough suffers from improper customer handling. It appears that many independents just alter their existing formulations to adapt them to a take-and-bake application. I decided on the latter approach with the Lehmann dough formulation.

To give you an idea of the sequence I used to make the take-and-bake pizza, I have included photos below of 1) the cardboard form I used, 2) the cardboard form/parchment paper combination, 3) the undressed pizza skin on top of the cardboard form/parchment combination (as it went into the refrigerator), and 4) the dressed pizza skin (as it sat on my countertop for about an hour before baking--to simulate travel time from one point to another).

As time permits, I plan to focus mainly on the formulation, since that is more important at this point than the carrier used (a tray or cardboard/parchment paper arrangement).

Although I didn't take a photo of the bottom of a pizza slice, it was essentially the same color of the top crust.

Peter

« Last Edit: November 22, 2006, 03:04:28 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline Buffalo

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #350 on: January 19, 2006, 12:58:04 PM »
Pete-zza;
Thanks very much for your quick response.  I look forward to your progress updates.
Buffalo ;D

Offline chiguy

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #351 on: January 19, 2006, 01:17:14 PM »
 Hi Peter,
 I checked the recipe Leahman posted for TAKE N BAKE at PMQ and noticed a discrepancy in the finished dough temperature. The formula states, Water: 58-63%,(Water temperture should be adjusted to give a finished dough temperature of 75-80F.
Then in the next paragraph it states the finished dough temperature should be 80-85F?? This temperature difference will obviously make a difference, especially with this type of pizza.
 I am looking through a book i recieved from General Mills that states finished dough temperatures for Take n Bake dough should be between(72-80F).

 During a visit to a friend last year i was able to try PaPa Murphy's, here is what i noticed. The sauce is not sauce, it is almost straight paste. Very thick like brick mortar. It was applied with a triangle knife, something i have never seen at a kitchen store. If i had to take a guess on the type of flour i would say it was probably a low quality bread flour. The pizza also noticably had alot of oil, it was definetly present on the pallet. The cheese was a blend, with very little mozzarella present. I would guess the water to be just under 60%, i say this because the dough did not seem over extensible and the way the kids were able to handle it. The dough appeared to be placed in a pizza press, although it was not present in the front of the shop. If you decide to take one and bake one, make it a small and have a back up plan. It is not a very good pizza in my opinion. I do feel Take N Bake is still a good concept and there is alot of room for improvement with this franchise and new concepts for the future.   Chiguy

Offline Wallman

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #352 on: January 19, 2006, 02:04:08 PM »
Peter,
I'll check out your post again. I think I got a little carried away with the "pulse" button.  :)

I do indeed use a silcon pastry mat for shaping the dough, it came from Sur la Table and is designed for making pies and tarts.   The mat has linear measurements on the sides and diameter measurements, circles up to 12 inches, in the middle (under the pizza skin in the photo).  Lightly floured it makes a convenient work surface.  Plus clean up is easier, I just rinse it off in the sink. You could cook on it if you had a really big cookie sheet.

I also have some smaller Silpat (and knock-off brand) baking sheets that I use for cookies, etc.  They are very handy for baking. Here's a link if anybody wants one for themselves.

http://www.surlatable.com/common/products/product_details.cfm?PRRFNBR=11618

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #353 on: January 19, 2006, 02:09:45 PM »
chiguy,

You have a sharp eye. I saw the same discrepancy and looked into it, for the same reason that you were suspicious. Judging from this post at the PMQ Think Tank, it looks like 80-85 degrees F is the correct range: http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/noframes/read/23323. I think that range is used to be sure that the gluten in the dough relaxes enough to permit skins to be made more easily, especially if a strong flour is used. Tom usually recommends a flour with 13-14.5% protein.

Papa Murphy's is often given more credit for its marketing than for the quality of its take-and-bake pizzas. So I am not surprised to hear your opinion on Papa Murphy's pizza. I also suspected that the hydration was lower than what I used the other day. I used 63%. I will lower it the next time.

Peter

Offline chiguy

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #354 on: January 19, 2006, 04:48:29 PM »
 Hi Peter,
 I do know GeneralMills definetly says use 72-80F as a finished dough temp. So to play it safe i would tend to be at 80F, right in the middle. I guess the flour could be HighGluten judging by it's haneling ability but it certainly did not reflect in the finished crust. Like i said the water seemed a bit lower than 60%, i think they make up for the lower hydration with the addition of oil 3-5% according to Leahman recipe. I assume the balance of the water and oil % they use, has alot to do with the handeling and keeping quality of the pizza? The oil definetly has a presence in the finished crust and gives it a very tender bite, i never detected olive oil though.  chiguy

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #355 on: January 19, 2006, 07:52:20 PM »
chiguy,

Tom Lehmann was asked a question about take-and-bake pizza doughs and, as part of his answer, he said the following about the oil:

As for the increased oil content,...... it helps to prevent/impede the migration of moisture from the sauce into the dough, it provides for a better flavor due to the flavor of the oil (if using a flavored oil such as olive oil), it also improves the mouthfeel of the crust, and tends to give it a shorter (tender), more crispy texture. Very low or no oil will give the crust a hard, crispy texture. And lastly, people like fat.

While Tom didn't mention it, I suspect that the increased levels of oil will also help make the dough more extensible, especially if a strong flour is used to make the take-and-bake dough.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #356 on: January 24, 2006, 10:41:02 AM »
Fellow member Buffalo requested today on another thread that I post a Lehmann dough formulation for a 30-inch pizza. For Buffalo and anyone else with the wherewithal to make such a size, I have posted the 30-inch dough formulation below. I elected to use a thickness factor of 0.105 to make the dough a little bit thicker and possibly a bit easier to handle when being opened up to 30 inches. I'd love to see someone give the 30-incher a try just to see if the formulation scales up well to that size. I know that there is such a thing as a 30-inch screen--as I discovered recently when I researched the matter--so there is at least the possibility of using a screen, even if it is just a mechanism to get the pizza into the oven (and possibly later transferred off of the screen directly onto the stone of a deck oven).

Buffalo's 30-inch Lehmann NY Style Dough Formulation
100%, High-gluten flour (KASL), 44.76 oz./2.80 lbs. (1256.55 g.)
63%, Water, 28.17 oz./1.76 lbs. (798.56 g.), a bit over 3 1/3 c.
1%, Oil, 0.45 oz. (12.68 g.), a bit less than 2 3/4 t.
1.75%, Salt, 0.78 oz. (22.18 g.), a bit less than 4 t.
0.25%, Instant dry yeast (IDY), 0.11 oz. (3.17 g.), a bit over 1 t.
Total dough weight = 74.22 oz. (2104.14 g.)
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105

Peter

Offline abc

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #357 on: January 29, 2006, 11:10:14 AM »
30" pizza?  I take it someone has access to a commercial oven.  But if this is going to be done in the home, what you got at home?

Offline Milanocookies56

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #358 on: February 01, 2006, 06:28:52 PM »
Tonight I made two pizzas using the Lehmann 16 inch recipe split in half with two dough balls so each pizza was roughly 8 inches
Half cheese half diced pepperoni

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #359 on: February 01, 2006, 07:10:52 PM »
Milanocookies56,

Very nice. How did they taste?

Was there a particular reason for picking 8 inches for the size of your pizzas? I ask this question because the amount of dough for a 16-inch pizza will make two roughly 12-inch pizzas with the same crust thickness as the 16-inch. Using half of the dough for an 8-inch pizza will yield a crust that is about double the thickness of the 16-inch. In other words, there is not a direct linear correlation between the 16- and 8-inch sizes. Of course, there is nothing wrong with making 8-inch pizzas if that is what you were striving for. They should still taste great.

Peter


 

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