Author Topic: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza  (Read 481860 times)

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Offline joebot

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #560 on: December 22, 2006, 07:00:44 AM »
Joe,

Did you use weight or volume measurements and, if volume measurements were used, how did you measure out the flour and water using your measuring cups? I used to convert weight measurements of flour to volume measurements as an accommodation to those who did not use scales but I was subsequently informed that I tend to have a light hand in making those types of conversions. Hence, I have stopped the practice of making those conversions. Instead, one would be better advised to use member November's mass/volume tool at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/.

Apart from the above possibility, and assuming that you did not make an error in measuring out the flour and water, which can easily happen if volume measurements were used, it is possible that your hydration level was too high in relation to the flour you used. From what I have been able to determine, the Eagle Mills flour is a ConAgra bread flour made from hard white wheat. It is intended for artisan type breads, and pizza dough is not among the specified applications listed at the ConAgra website. Most high-gluten flours are made of hard red spring wheat. Like the KASL, ConAgra's high-gluten flours are made from hard red spring wheat and are specified for use in making pizza doughs and other bread products. I don't know the absorption rate of the Eagle Mills flour but I would guess that it is maybe a few percent lower than the 63% hydration you used. Next time I would lower the hydration percent if you plan to continue to use the Eagle Mills flour. If you use the Lehmann dough calculator you should be able to recalculate the ingredient quantities so that the total dough weight remains the same. 

You also indicated that you kneaded the dough at speed 2 for ten minutes and that the finished dough temperature was 78 degrees F. It's possible that the dough fermented at a faster rate because of the elevated finished dough temperature but if you put the dough promptly into the refrigerator it should have held up well enough to be workable in normal fashion after 24 hours. Over time I have gravitated toward shorter overall knead times at lower mixer speeds but I don't think what you did was the source of the problem you experienced.

Peter

 

Oops yea, I finally got a 11 lb digital scale a few weeks ago, I weighed the water and the flour and used tsps/Tbsps, for the yeast and salt etc. So do you think that I'd be better off just using KABF for making any of the NY style doughs instead of the other stuff?
Thanks for the help Pete!
 
  Joe   
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 11:38:41 AM by Pete-zza »


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #561 on: December 22, 2006, 09:12:43 AM »
Joe,

It's up to you whether you should switch to the KABF, but until you get a better fix on the problem I think I would just reformulate the Lehmann dough recipe using less water (lower hydration percent) but still using your Eagle Mills flour. You might also take a look at this post: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563 (Reply 8). That post describes the way I was using my KitchenAid mixer before I started experimenting with alternative mixing methods recently. The post is silent on mix/knead times because those times vary depending on dough batch size, among other factors. The key thing is to strive to get the finished dough characteristics described in the post.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #562 on: December 24, 2006, 03:51:31 PM »
For those Lehmann dough fans who do not have a stand mixer but have an electric hand mixer, a sieve (or flour sifter), and don't mind doing a few minutes of hand kneading, I recently achieved very good results using just those two implements (plus a bowl and spoon). Details and photos are presented at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg36489.html#msg36489 (Reply 30).

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #563 on: January 06, 2007, 11:00:00 AM »
Today, as part of my continuing experiments using the new KitchenAid dough making method to make Lehmann NY style pizzas (among others), I described the latest experiment in which I used non-rehydrated active dry yeast (ADY). The post in which the results are presented is at Reply 35 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg37060.html#msg37060. Apart from using the new method, the sequencing of ingredients was as I normally use with a Lehmann dough but for the addition of the (non-rehydrated) ADY at the end of the dough making process rather than in hydrated form at the beginning of the process. The dough lasted around 6 1/3 days before using, with very good results. A representative photo is shown below.

Peter

Offline turbosundance

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #564 on: January 06, 2007, 11:50:19 AM »
Speaking of KitchenAids, I just recently modified my old bread maker so that I could turn the kneading paddle on and off with a switch.  I'm planning to use this machine to knead my dough in the future.  When I fist started making pizza dough I used to use the bread maker but was never vewry good .  The bread maker would always warm the dough I could never control when it would knead.  It always seemed to overknead the dough and it rose way too quickly.

Anyway, do you think that my modified bread machine would make a good kitchen aid substitute? 
Ryan

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #565 on: January 06, 2007, 04:12:12 PM »
turbosundance,

The basic Lehmann dough recipe is a commercial recipe that is intended to be used to make dough that is slightly underkneaded and, ideally, has a finished dough temperature when it goes into the cooler of 80-85 degrees F (the corresponding number for a home refrigerator is between 75-80 degree F, but favoring the 75 degree number).

As I see it, a shortcoming of many bread makers is that they have pre-heat cycles and knead the dough too long and, in the process, create a lot of heat such that the finished dough temperature can far exceed the recommended range. That isn’t necessarily fatal but it can shorten the useful life of the dough and the finished crust can be soft and breadlike rather than chewy with “tooth” to it. That said, there are bread makers that apparently have a special pizza dough cycle (although I have never investigated what it really is), and in some machines the heat can be turned off during kneading. My bread maker (a Zojirushi) does not have either feature. So, to create a dough that was slightly underkneaded and with a finished dough temperature in the desired range, I had to take measures to reduce the amount of kneading and reduce the heat. In case you are interested, I discussed the measures I took at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5486.html#msg5486 (Reply 51) and at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17113.html#msg17113 (Reply 260). Maybe some of these measures will work in your case, or perhaps they may not be necessary at all. You will have to experiment with your bread machine to see whether the results require taking measures such as I took with my machine.

Peter

Offline turbosundance

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #566 on: January 06, 2007, 06:46:55 PM »
I actually used the machine to make some dough this morning.  It worked great.  MY bread makekr doesn't have a pizza dough cycle so it would always make finished dough temperature way too high and it would over knead if I forgot about it.  It'a an old breadmaker that I never use for anything else other than making pizza dough so I decided to make some changes.  I ripped out all the controls and the heating element.  Now I just have a switch on the top of the machien that turns on the paddle.  I  just have to make sure I time the dough and dont over knead it.
Ryan

Offline November

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #567 on: January 06, 2007, 10:16:48 PM »
Converted breadmakers can certainly be very good for kneading pizza dough.  After all, they're built specialized for kneading dough.  Having control over the temperature and amount of kneading is all you need.

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Offline Troy T

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #568 on: January 12, 2007, 12:21:11 PM »
Thanks everyone for the responses. 
I finally got a chance to give this another try this week.  I used KA Bread flour this time, and changed the hydration to the standard 63%.  I was able to make a height adjustment to my KA mixer to get the C-hook closer to the bowl.  It did good job this time at kneading this small 12 batch.  The final dough temperature was 77 had no cracks in it like last time. I did make one mistake I used about 1/2 -3/4 tsp more oil then what was called for.  This will teach me not to measure ingredients over the bowl.   The one problem I had was when I removed the dough from the fridge 49 hours later it raised about 25% and had a couple of large bubbles on top, lots of small ones on bottom and was stuck to the bowl.  I did coat the bowl with oil and I also coated my hands with oil and rubbed it all over the ball before placing it in the bowl. What would cause this? I did check my fridge temperature and it is 34 (I like my beer very cold).  Is this temperature to low? Any suggestions on this?

I was skeptical at first of using the bread flour because when I used the AP flour is turned out very chewy and did not want it any chewier.  How ever with the problems encountered, the crust was not that chewy at all, not only was this the best crust I have ever made but was one of the best I ever had!   I can not compare it to anything due to the fact I have never had a NY style Pizza before.  Would the extra oil I mistakenly added have anything to do with the crust chew? The dough was not greasy at all.

Sorry no pictures this time, this pizza was made while watching the BCS Bowl.

Troy

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #569 on: January 12, 2007, 08:24:40 PM »
Troy,

Maybe my memory is faulty, but I can't recall ever having bubbles form on a Lehmann dough within a two-day period. Your refrigerator is on the cool side as home refrigerators go, but commercial coolers operate at similar temperatures without a problem. And your finished dough temperature was not out of whack. Usually bubbles form in the surface of the dough because of overfermentation, or excessive yeast, or something like that. But 49 hours isn't out of line, and especially at the finished dough temperature you achieved and the cool refrigerator compartment where you kept your dough.

The amount of oil you used shouldn't have been a problem. It was too little to produce any really noticeable effects on the pizza. It might have contributed a bit of tenderness to the crust but I don't think that adding an additional 1/2-3/4 t. would have had a significant impact.

When a dough sticks to its container, it is sometimes due to the release of water from the dough and the dough becoming slack and soft. But that usually occurs because of overfermentation. You would know because the dough becomes very extensible and hard to handle. You didn't mention anything along those lines, so I am at a loss to explain what happened in your case.

Peter


Offline SemperFi

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #570 on: January 19, 2007, 04:34:26 PM »
Well,

I finally got my scale today, and Lordy, my dough balls are way too heavy.  What should weigh in at 11.31oz is topping the scales at 21+.  I least now I know why my 12" pizzas seem to be too dough heavy.  But I do wonder, how much cheese (weight wise) is considered correct for a 12" pie?  And if I was going to dress the pie with other toppings, is there a comfortable range to shoot for to not over top the pie.  I know its subjective, but was wondering if anyone has input.

Adam
Adam

Offline November

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #571 on: January 19, 2007, 04:48:16 PM »
Adam,

It is rather subjective, but it's also important as you mentioned not to overdress your pizza.  I use 280g for a 14" with two toppings, so if I were making a 12" with two toppings, I would use around 194g.

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Offline SemperFi

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #572 on: January 19, 2007, 04:50:06 PM »
Thank you November,

one last question, how about sauce?  I know that NY style is on the drier side.  Adam
Adam

Offline November

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #573 on: January 19, 2007, 05:02:14 PM »
Adam,

I think that's even more subjective.  It depends a lot on the consistency of the sauce too.  If it's a thick sauce, it may be hard to spread out very thin.  If it's a thin sauce, you really have no choice but to spread it thin.  I use one medium ladle's worth (74 cc) or 78 g of sauce, so for a 12" I would use around 51 cc or 54 g.  I don't use these proportions to follow any particular style though.  It's just what I came up with for various reasons.

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EDIT: thick/thin
« Last Edit: January 19, 2007, 05:05:05 PM by November »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #574 on: January 19, 2007, 05:49:40 PM »
Adam,

As November has indicated, there are no hard and fast rules on how much cheese (or sauce) to use, although pizza operators pay much closer attention to the amount of cheese to use because it is much more expensive than their sauces. The cheese question came up recently at the PMQ Think Tank and the answers that several pizza operators gave for the 12” pizza size ranged from 5 ounces to 8-9 ounces. Some professionals use the so-called Burke portioning guide to determine how to portion cheese, sauce and toppings on pizzas, based on whether you have a light, moderate or heavy hand. You can see an abbreviated chart on the right hand side of this page: http://www.bellissimofoods.com/pdfs/bb_0504_f.pdf. To get the complete Burke guide, it can be downloaded from the pizzamarketplace website at http://www.pizzamarketplace.com/specialpub.php?i=18. You will have to fill in a form to get the guide. I haven’t seen the latest version of the Burke guide, but please note that the earlier version erroneously gave portions for pepperoni in ounces rather than in pieces (slices), at page 23.

I also found that a Lehmann dough can hold a fair amount of toppings without succumbing to the weight. I noted this characteristic in the last paragraph of this post earlier in this thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg6541.html#msg6541 (Reply 82).

Peter

Offline SemperFi

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #575 on: January 19, 2007, 06:23:51 PM »
Its baffling,

People think that making pizzas is not a science.  There is so much to be considered, that I truly do believe it is an artform.  No offense to Chewie, who would prefer a robot to build his pie.  Though I have never made a truly heavy pizza, I have made pizzas that just weren't cooked enough in the middle due to too many toppings, not a good eat, to say the least.  I do seem to have the problem when I am transferring the pie from peel to stone.  The darn toppings just seem to shake way too much on top, with the inevitable mess ending on the stone, though not alot.  I'm sure that it has to do more with transferring finesse than anything else.  And I do do the small shakes (while dressing, prior to opening the oven door, and upon transferring).  Anyhoooo, thanks for the knowledge on proper dressing techniques. I can't wait to try my new scale out and build a true thought out and measured pie.  Adam
Adam

Offline Bryan S

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Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #576 on: January 24, 2007, 08:21:40 PM »
I think that one of the reasons I mentioned the salt issue was that I remember reading something (PR's American Pie I think) about using a larger amount of salt if using Kosher.
I could have sworn that it was almost double the amount of table salt. This amount seem a little extreme to say the least.  However it is easy to see that Mortons Kosher and Table salts could not possibly have the same weight at the same volume.

Whether this actually makes a considerable difference in the actual cooking I am sure Mortons has surely tested.  But to say that they are interchangable in terms of recipes makes me truly wonder how much a difference the amount of salt may play in the recipe other than taste.

1 cup Diamond Crystal kosher salt = 3/4 cup Morton kosher salt = 1/2 cup table salt (non-iodized preferred). Also, a cup of Diamond Crystal weighs 5 ounces, so if your recipe calls for 1 cup of DC kosher salt, you can safely substitute 5 oz. of any other salt.
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Offline November

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #577 on: January 24, 2007, 08:44:30 PM »
Bryan,

Did you get that from an online source, the package, or did you weight it yourself?  I get 173 g or 6.1 oz. for a cup of Diamond Crystal kosher salt.

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Offline Bryan S

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #578 on: January 24, 2007, 08:50:51 PM »
Bryan,

Did you get that from an online source, the package, or did you weight it yourself?  I get 173 g or 6.1 oz. for a cup of Diamond Crystal kosher salt.

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This is posted over on a BBQ forum that i belong to. The question of salt comes up all the time there how much Kosher salt to use for this brand. Doug D who posts this salt info all the time referenced cooks.com I can't get Diamond here so i use Morton's Kosher but mostly i use Sea Salt.
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Offline November

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #579 on: January 24, 2007, 09:03:34 PM »
The reason I ask is because many times FAQs or website sources state weight measurements without taking into consideration that a cup of a granular substance will weigh more than twice that of a 1/2 cup, or more than 4 times that of a 1/4 cup.  The package indicates a cup would weigh 4.74 oz. if compaction were not considered.  Over time that might have been rounded to 5 oz.  With the difference being as much as an ounce, I wouldn't recommend 5 oz. as a weight for a cup.  I've noticed with the Diamond Crystal brand, the compaction is quite a bit higher than with other brands I've used.

Peter,

Since I know you have Diamond Crystal, if it wouldn't be too much trouble, could you please weigh 1 cup and 1/4 cup of kosher salt?  An average between us should allow me to finish the kosher salt entry on the tools page.  I left it unfinished because I ran out of the brand I started with.

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