Author Topic: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza  (Read 505987 times)

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Offline petesopizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #660 on: June 25, 2008, 12:17:10 PM »
Latest this AM

2.5 tbs gluten
2 3/4 cups flour (King Arthur AP)
1.5 tsp salt
1 tsp idy
1 1/4cup H2O

Mixed H20 with 1/4 of the flour, salt, yeast, gluten mix (all sifted together)
20 Minute Autolyse

"Added Remainder of flour mix"

10 minute #1 speed kitchen aid mix had to add 1/4 c more flour
5 more minutes on #2
Formed balls oiled and threw in fridge for 2 day cold ferment
« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 12:25:35 PM by petesopizza »
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Offline petesopizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #661 on: June 25, 2008, 12:21:23 PM »
Does anyone make a S hook attachment for the Kitchen Aid mixer?
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Offline petesopizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #662 on: June 26, 2008, 11:53:49 AM »
24 hours

very active cold fermentation I popped a few bubbles
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Offline pcampbell

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #663 on: June 27, 2008, 05:20:03 PM »
Does anyone make a S hook attachment for the Kitchen Aid mixer?

Which KitchenAid mixer? It won't fit on anything "below" a Pro 5 Plus.  Er Villa Roma put it on one mixer in between (I believe a model that is no longer solder).  It will not fit (length wise) on the Artisan mixer.
Patrick

Offline petesopizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #664 on: July 29, 2008, 08:15:06 PM »
What are the leading causes of elasticity (spring  back)? My dough always seems to want to return to ball form :)

My Latest:
Flour 3 1/2 Cups  KAAP
H2O 1 1/3 Cups
IDY 1 1/2 Tsp
Kosher Salt 3/4 Tsp 

Using Kitchen-Aid mixer
Mix 2c flour and all the water and mix on 1 for 5 minutes
Let sit for 20 minutes
Mix the remaining flour and yeast mix for 1 minute on 1
Add salt and mix for 20 minutes on 1

Throw in the fridge for 24 hours then pull an hour before cooking

Tastes great I just wish I could solve the elasticity problem
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Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #665 on: July 29, 2008, 09:55:39 PM »
Petes,  try just kneading less,  a lot less. maybe 5 and 5. -marc

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #666 on: July 29, 2008, 11:18:27 PM »
petesopizza,

I believe Marc is correct and that the problem is overkneading of the dough. This matter has been discussed before on the forum on several occasions, even in this thread, but you may want to take a look at this post and the links referenced therein: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5083.msg43133.html#msg43133 (Reply 6).

Peter

Offline petesopizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #667 on: July 29, 2008, 11:33:56 PM »
The problem is that with shorter knead times the dough tears when I pull off a piece and test it while kneading (like in the leahmann video)
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #668 on: July 29, 2008, 11:49:54 PM »
The problem is that with shorter knead times the dough tears when I pull off a piece and test it while kneading (like in the leahmann video)

petesopizza,

I recently reminded another member that the Lehmann video is with respect to a dough made using a commercial mixer. Our standard KitchenAid stand mixers are no match for commercial mixers and our doughs will not be anywhere as good as those that are made using commercial mixers. So, while it may be possible to develop a simple home test to check the dough in the bowl, I do not bother. I take the dough out of the bowl as soon as it is smooth but a bit tacky. Sometimes the dough will have a cottage cheese look at the outer surface but as Evelyne Slomon mentioned in the post referenced in my last reply, that is quite normal.

Peter

Offline thatonegirl

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #669 on: August 20, 2008, 12:53:45 AM »
Has anyone else out there tried this formula with Bread Flour rather than the high gluten flour? I decided to try Bread Flour and I like it so much better! It had a crispier outside and a soft and chewy inside...just what I've been looking for! This has become mine and my husband's favorite pizza thus far!


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #670 on: August 20, 2008, 10:40:45 AM »
Has anyone else out there tried this formula with Bread Flour rather than the high gluten flour? I decided to try Bread Flour and I like it so much better! It had a crispier outside and a soft and chewy inside...just what I've been looking for! This has become mine and my husband's favorite pizza thus far!

thatonegirl,

There are many members, including me, who have practiced the basic Lehmann NY style dough recipe using bread flour instead of high-gluten flour. In fact, many prefer the use of bread flour over high-gluten flour for this recipe. Also, if you go back into history before high-gluten flours became popular for pizza dough, the flour that the old masters used in New York City was either all-purpose flour or bread flour (Evelyne Slomon's popular book, The Pizza Book, published in 1984, chronicles the work of the early masters with the NY style). The Lehmann recipe is actually quite close to what the old masters used but updated to use dry yeast instead of fresh yeast, high-gluten flour instead of the earlier flours, and a bit of oil. The dough preparation and management methods were also altered to adapt the recipe to commercial applications by allowing cold fermentation, rather than a room-temperature fermentation, which is what the old masters used before refrigerators were invented and became commercially available. I think it is the classic nature of the Lehmann recipe that appeals to our members. Also, it is very versatile, as you can see from the Lehmann Roadmap at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1453.msg13193.html#msg13193. The creation and availability of the Lehmann dough calculating tool (named in honor of Tom Lehmann and his recipe) at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html also opened up new opportunities for users to make all kinds of pizzas based on the basic recipe. That tool alone significantly increased the popularity of the Lehmann recipe.

In my case, I use the King Arthur bread flour because of its slightly higher protein content (12.7%) over competing brands. Also, its absorption rate, 62% +/- 2%, is close enough to the absorption rate of high-gluten flour (around 63%) such that it can be substituted for the high-gluten flour without having to change the hydration rate or anything else.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 10:52:11 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Park.Pizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #671 on: August 21, 2008, 01:33:05 PM »
Pete,

You are a wonderful source for information on pizza. How do you retain all that information? Where do get the time.

Best wishes,

Tim ;D
Throw me a slice, won't ya

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #672 on: August 21, 2008, 02:34:00 PM »
Tim,

Thanks for the kind words.

In answer to your questions, I would say that it basically comes down to having been blessed with a pretty good memory, and being detail oriented by nature. Also, I have learned through experience and practice how to become a better searcher--whether it is on this forum or using the commercial search engines--so I can usually find what I am looking for. Do this enough times and read what you find carefully, and you will develop a broad and comprehensive database of information. Also, since I like all kinds and styles of pizzas, and make just about all of them, I also learn from those experiences. Hopefully, all of these things have helped me become better organized and efficient, so it doesn't take me much time to crank out responses on the forum. In this regard, one of the best things I ever did was to take a course on typing in high school.

Peter

Offline thatonegirl

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #673 on: August 22, 2008, 01:34:31 PM »
Pete,

I use the King Arthur bread flour for this recipe as well. I love it! In fact I have two dough balls in the fridge right now for tonight, along with a DKM's chicago style :) Having the fam over to reap the benefits of my talents I now have from using this forum  ;D

Offline petesopizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #674 on: August 26, 2008, 11:12:07 PM »
Latest:

For my latest pizza adventure I have focused on texture and I am where I want to be.

3+ C        (King Arthur AP Flour stored in freezer)
1 5/8 C     (Britta Filtered Water as cold as my tap will get)
.5 tsp      (f'mans Bread Machine Yeast)
1  tsp      (Mortens Kosher Salt)
1  Tbs     (Domino Brown Sugar)

I mix 1 5/8 Cups water (Britta filtered) with the salt, brown sugar, and 2 C flour. Mix with KA paddle for 2 minutes then let autolyse for 20. Then I add 1 more cup flour and start a 6 minute mixing cycle with the dough hook. After 1 minute I add the yeast ten continue to add flour by the 1/8th C until it is barely sticking to the bottom and not at all the sides of the bowl (Tornadoing I call it). after 6 minutes I remove it from the hook and let it rest in the bowl for 10 minutes. Then I ball it and coat it with olive oil and let it cold ferment for 48-72 hours. When I am going to use it I pull it out and let it warm up for 45 minutes while my oven clean cycle it revving up (latch disabled by myself). When I am ready to put the pie in I turn off the oven so the broil doesn't come on and toss it in. I pull it by site when it appears done and this is usually about 4 minutes.

My only concern is adding flavor. If I try to add more salt it tastes too salty. Does olive oil contribute to a more flavorful dough? What do you do to make a more flavorful dough?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 11:14:08 PM by petesopizza »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #675 on: August 26, 2008, 11:51:17 PM »
What do you do to make a more flavorful dough?

petesopizza,

There are several possibilities. You have already used one of them--a long fermentation. Beyond using an even longer fermentation (of a week or more), other possibilities are: use a flour with a higher protein content, such as bread flour or high-gluten flour; supplement the all-purpose flour with vital wheat gluten; use a combination of all-purpose flour and semolina flour or some other flour such as whole wheat or rye flour; convert the recipe to a preferment format, such as a poolish; or use a natural starter/preferment in lieu of the commercial yeast. There is some flavor contribution from using oil but unless you use a fair amount of it and it is a naturally flavorful oil, such as a high-quality olive oil, you may not get sufficient flavor contribution from the oil. Some people add garlic and/or onion powder to the dough, or add dried herbs to the dough for flavor purposes. However, those flavors are of a different nature than flavors that are created in the context of the dough itself. You can also use a flavorful honey or a nondiastatic barley malt syrup.

Peter

Offline tdeane

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #676 on: August 31, 2008, 12:20:06 PM »
Hi Pete,
   You said that a dough ball should be 20-24 oz for an 18 inch pizza? That seems to be way too much. That's over 630g. I use 300-310g(10-11oz) for a 13 inch pie. Simple math would tell me that the dough ball for an 18 inch pie should be around 450g or about 16oz. I don't know I'm probably wrong. Also, for NY pizza, 65%hydration is too wet. I guarantee you that the good NY places like Joe's are at more like 60%. I lived in New York and ate at Joe's several times a week. 65% hydration(or more) works better in a high temp oven, over 800 degrees. Under that temp a lower hydration is better. When you see the NY places stretch the dough on their fists you realize that there is no way the dough that wet.
   For flavorful dough a starter and fermentation  is needed. I never put oil in my dough. Flour, water(Dasani), salt and yeast are the only ingredients. I use more salt than all of the recipes in this thread. Usually around 3.5% which sounds like a lot but it is the right amount. Also Pete, I think you need to cook you pies a little longer. They should be a little darker and more crispy(IMO). Real NY pizza is very crispy on the bottom.

Offline Art

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #677 on: August 31, 2008, 12:47:16 PM »
Hi Pete,
   You said that a dough ball should be 20-24 oz for an 18 inch pizza? That seems to be way too much. That's over 630g. I use 300-310g(10-11oz) for a 13 inch pie. Simple math would tell me that the dough ball for an 18 inch pie should be around 450g or about 16oz. I don't know I'm probably wrong. Also, for NY pizza, 65%hydration is too wet. I guarantee you that the good NY places like Joe's are at more like 60%. I lived in New York and ate at Joe's several times a week. 65% hydration(or more) works better in a high temp oven, over 800 degrees. Under that temp a lower hydration is better. When you see the NY places stretch the dough on their fists you realize that there is no way the dough that wet.
   For flavorful dough a starter and fermentation  is needed. I never put oil in my dough. Flour, water(Dasani), salt and yeast are the only ingredients. I use more salt than all of the recipes in this thread. Usually around 3.5% which sounds like a lot but it is the right amount. Also Pete, I think you need to cook you pies a little longer. They should be a little darker and more crispy(IMO). Real NY pizza is very crispy on the bottom.

For my own 13" pies at 63% hydration and a thickness factor of 0.1, each dough ball weighs 13.27 oz. or 376.3 grams. Using the same parameters for my 16" recipe (I never made an 18") each dough ball weighs 20.11 oz.  or 570.01 grams.  You must be making some mighty thin pizzas.  ???  Art
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Offline tdeane

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #678 on: August 31, 2008, 01:35:23 PM »
For my own 13" pies at 63% hydration and a thickness factor of 0.1, each dough ball weighs 13.27 oz. or 376.3 grams. Using the same parameters for my 16" recipe (I never made an 18") each dough ball weighs 20.11 oz.  or 570.01 grams.  You must be making some mighty thin pizzas.  ???  Art

   No, I am making them thickness of real NY pizza. At 376 grams yours must be pretty thick as mine at 310 grams are not super thin. My dough stretches so easily that if I wanted to i could make a 15" pie with a 310g ball no problem. That would be way too thin though.

Offline Art

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #679 on: August 31, 2008, 01:39:38 PM »
   No, I am making them thickness of real NY pizza. At 376 grams yours must be pretty thick as mine at 310 grams are not super thin. My dough stretches so easily that if I wanted to i could make a 15" pie with a 310g ball no problem. That would be way too thin though.

Perhaps, your scale is off.  Art
When baking, follow directions.  When cooking, go by your own taste.