Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza

[c0mpl3x]

21 oz will give you a crust thickness similar to papa johns, where for a more NY style, 14oz will be on target

[Pete-zza]

I've made this recipe many times without the VWG and I love the NY flavor and crispiness but for some reason the end of my crust always comes out flat.  I am looking for a Sbarro type (puffy) crust at the end.   What would cause this to happen?

pythonic,

Since you quoted the NY style dough formulation for a mini pizza (9") in your post, I assume that your question is with respect to that size pizza. Looking at the formulation you used, I would say that it is consistent with being able to get a decent rim. However, there may be something about the way that your toaster oven bakes the pizzas and, as a result, produces a smaller or flatter rim. Sbarro uses a pizza mold as shown at http://www.marsalsons.com/default.aspx?pageId=45. That pretty much insures a well-defined rim. Unfortunately, such a mold is 11" in diameter and is therefore not suitable for making small pizzas. In your case, you might experiment with your dough shaping and stretching to try to get the gases in the dough to the outer rim.

When I posted the material you quoted, I used a thickness factor of 0.10. Subsequently, in an exchange with Tom Lehmann, he suggested a dough weight of about 13.5 ounces for a 14" NY style pizza, such as his NY style. On that basis, the thickness factor would be 0.0877. For a 9" size pizza, the corresponding dough weight would be 3.14159 x 4.5 x 4.5 x 0.0877 = 5.58 ounces. It might be worth a try to see if you get improved oven spring with a smaller skin. However, I would still handle the dough to try to get the gasses to the outer rim as you press out the skin.

Peter

[pythonic]

Pete,

I actually made the pizzas in my oven at 475 degrees.  It may be an issue of over stretching I think because my pizzas were approx 11-12 inches in diameter before I placed them into the oven.

[Spydmaster]

Amazing,
 I just love this pizza!!! 

[mikedavid]

Is there a settled on 'best for beginners' recipe on this thread? I'm also in Canada so don't have access to most of the recommended flour. Any suggestions would be great.

Thanks!

[c0mpl3x]

Pete,

I actually made the pizzas in my oven at 475 degrees.  It may be an issue of over stretching I think because my pizzas were approx 11-12 inches in diameter before I placed them into the oven.

an oz per inch is a generic rule of thumb for NY style.

myself, i aim for about 4.5oz for every 4" (14" is around 17-18oz, 16" is 21-22, etc) for a 11-12" pizza i would be using closer to around 11-12oz though, you don't need as thick of a crust to get performance

[Pete-zza]

Is there a settled on 'best for beginners' recipe on this thread? I'm also in Canada so don't have access to most of the recommended flour. Any suggestions would be great.

mikedavid,

It is difficult to come up with a single "best for beginners" Lehmann NY style dough recipe because not everyone has the same equipment and needs. For example, a classic NY style pizza is 14" or 18". 16" is also very popular, and I am told that they can be over 20" in some cases. However, not everyone can make those sizes in their home ovens. I actually think that starting out with a 12" size is best for beginners until they become experienced enough and get the needed stone sizes to make larger versions. For this reason, I frequently suggest that newbies try the recipe that is given at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563/topicseen.html#msg19563. I also recommend that they read the entire thread to get a feel for the entire process and many of the possible variations.

In practice, when I am asked for a basic Lehmann NY style dough recipe, it is like the one given in Reply 8 referenced above. However, because of the availability of the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html (the Lehmann calculator at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html can also be used), I am able to customize the recipe to meet the needs of the end user, based on the ingredients available to the end user (including flour type, yeast type, salt type and oil type), the desired pizza size, the number of pizzas, and the desired crust thickness. I will also often adjust the amount of yeast based on the ambient temperature where the dough is to be made, which means that I will usually recommend using more yeast in the winter than in the summer. This is not something that one would do in a professional environment but I have found that it helps in a home environment.

Once you have reviewed the abovereferenced thread, I can help you come up with a typical starter recipe that might meet your particular needs and situation. To do this, I would need a list of the ingredients available to you, the size and number of pizzas you would like to make, whether you like a thin or somewhat thicker crust, and whether it is warm or cold this time of year where you live. Ideally, you would want to use either bread flour or high-gluten flour for the Lehmann recipe, which was designed for using a high protein flour. I believe that you should have access to such flours in Canada.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

an oz per inch is a generic rule of thumb for NY style.

c0mpl3x,

An ounce per linear inch of pizza is an old rule of thumb that I became aware of several years ago when I started working with thickness factors and another member quoted that rule of thumb to me as gospel. However, as noted in Reply 91 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13080/topicseen.html#msg13080, that rule of thumb will not produce the same crust thickness across different pizza sizes if that is what is desired.

Peter

[c0mpl3x]

c0mpl3x,

An ounce per linear inch of pizza is an old rule of thumb that I became aware of several years ago when I started working with thickness factors and another member quoted that rule of thumb to me as gospel. However, as noted in Reply 91 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13080/topicseen.html#msg13080, that rule of thumb will not produce the same crust thickness across different pizza sizes if that is what is desired.

Peter

but i think for the average home pie tosser in the 11-16" range, i dont see an issue.    under 11" .75oz per inch, and above 16, 1.5

[pythonic]

Pete,

I've made this recipe many times without the VWG and I love the NY flavor and crispiness but for some reason the end of my crust always comes out flat.  I am looking for a Sbarro type (puffy) crust at the end.   What would cause this to happen?

Hey Pete,

I finally picked up the VWG (Bob's Red Mill) and tried this recipe.  For some reason the dough was much harder to stretch out with the VWG in it.  Is that supposed to happen?  Before I could easily stretch it out to around 12 in. but was only able to get it to 7in. in diameter this time and that was a struggle.

[c0mpl3x]

Hey Pete,

I finally picked up the VWG (Bob's Red Mill) and tried this recipe.  For some reason the dough was much harder to stretch out with the VWG in it.  Is that supposed to happen?  Before I could easily stretch it out to around 12 in. but was only able to get it to 7in. in diameter this time and that was a struggle.

for every 2-3% of total gluten added to the flour, you need about 1% more water in my experience

[Pete-zza]

I finally picked up the VWG (Bob's Red Mill) and tried this recipe.  For some reason the dough was much harder to stretch out with the VWG in it.  Is that supposed to happen?  Before I could easily stretch it out to around 12 in. but was only able to get it to 7in. in diameter this time and that was a struggle.

pythonic,

There are actually a couple of ways based on weights to deal with the supplementation of a given quantity of flour with vital wheat gluten.

The first method, which is the one that Tom Lehmann uses and recommends, is the one described in Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4252.msg35469/topicseen.html#msg35469. So, for example, if you started out with 300 grams of flour in your recipe, such as a basic Lehmann NY style dough recipe, and you calculated that you needed 20 grams of Bob's Red Mill vital wheat gluten to raise the protein content of the flour by the desired percent, then, in that case, based on what Tom Lehmann has reported you would need to increase the amount of formula water by 1 1/2-2 times the weight of the added vital wheat gluten. The added water would be needed since the vital wheat gluten also absorbs water. The total weight of the blend in this example would be 320 grams (300 + 20). The Lehmann method is the one that I used to use until member November challenged the 0.6% number that Tom Lehmann used/uses. I actually had an email exchange or two with Tom on the origin of the 0.6% figure but did not get clarity on the matter (Tom said that the 0.6% rule was just a rule and whether one used the 0.6% rule or a more accurate one, the results would be close enough). As best I can tell, Tom continues to advance his method.

Member November went on to create the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://tools.foodsim.com/ as the correct method to use to supplement a base flour with vital wheat gluten. That is the tool that I now use, most typically in connection with one of the dough calculating tools. What that tool does is to replace part of the formula flour with vital wheat gluten such that the final blend has the desired targeted protein content. The final blend would weigh the same as the original flour weight. So, if the recipe calls for 300 grams of flour, the weight of the blend remains the same--300 grams, with part of the flour being replaced by vital wheat gluten. Using this method, you don't have to add more water. The dough calculating tool takes care of that well enough for all practical purposes for just about all brands of vital wheat gluten on the market. If you want to see an example of how I use this method in practice, see Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg66312.html#msg66312.

Peter

[nick378311]

Can I use bread flour or all purpose flour for new york style pizza???
Thanks, Nick

[Pete-zza]

Can I use bread flour or all purpose flour for new york style pizza???
Thanks, Nick

Nick,

Yes. In the early days, going back to the time of the old New York City masters who perfected the NY style pizza, all-purpose flour was the flour that was available and used. That was followed by bread flour and, starting in the late 70's or early 80's or thereabouts, high-gluten flour arrived on the scene. Previously, that flour was used mostly to make bagels. Today, I think you will find all three types of flour used to make the NY style but I would say that the predominant flour, at least in the NYC area, is the high-gluten flour (and typically bromated).

If you decide to use all-purpose flour or bread flour to make a classic NY style, you will want to be sure that the hydration value is proper for the type of flour you use. I think you will be safe using hydration values that are close to the rated absorption values for the flours you decide to use.

Peter

[fazzari]

I'm ashamed to say that I haven't tried a Lehmann pizza yet, so I thought it was about time. Here is the recipe I used:

Flour (100%): Water (56%): IDY (.5%): Salt (1.75%): Oil (1%): Total (159.25%): Single Ball:

712.09 g  |  25.12 oz | 1.57 lbs 398.77 g  |  14.07 oz | 0.88 lbs 3.56 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.18 tsp | 0.39 tbsp 12.46 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.23 tsp | 0.74 tbsp 7.12 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.58 tsp | 0.53 tbsp 1134 g | 40 oz | 2.5 lbs | TF = N/A 567 g | 20 oz | 1.25 lbs

The only thing I did radically different from Tom's guidelines is that after the first 3 minutes of mix time where all of the ingredients are gathered...I let the dough rest 5 minutes...then I added the oil and continued with the mix for about 6 more minutes...  then Scaled, balled and refrigerated.
This dough was in the fridge 30 hours.    Magnificent texture, excellent bottom crust and an extremely easy dough to work with.  Cooked very good in my home oven at 530 degrees.
John

[kerrymarcy]

Pete-zza,
Way to go! That was some awesome cause/effect experimentation.  I am one of those temperature-challenged people that wants a nice NewYork pie from my conventional oven.  Thanks for your hard work!
Scott123 also helped me a great deal with the conventional oven issue. 
I would like to ask you if KABF would work in your formulation (I know that you are using KASL) and if the protein level is high enough.  What would this do to the age-old question of hydration% ?

Kerry

[Pete-zza]

Kerry,

It was all the experiments with the Lehmann NY style dough, starting in 2004 with limited practical experience under my belt, that taught me many of the technical, mathematical and scientific principles that later served me well for other styles. And all using my humble standard unmodified electric home oven, now around 22 years old. In that respect, I think I am in the company of a lot of other people similarly situated. They may well be the ones who have been frequenting this thread over the last several years to learn how to make a fairlly decent NY style pizza in their kitchen grade home ovens. To his credit, scott123 has ratcheted things up a lot by helping members overcome the shortcomings of home ovens by suggesting the use of steel baking plates rather than the stones and screens that I have used. That can turn a "fairly decent" NY style pizza into a much better one.

As for using the King Arthur bread flour (KABF) in lieu of the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour (KASL), or its equivalent, that should work out fine. In fact, there are many people who actually prefer using the lower protein bread flour, like the KABF or something similar, for the NY style. I use the KABF because it is readily available in most supermarkets and because I could not go through a 50-lb bag of KASL fast enough before the bugs took over. Also, I did not want to pay the King Arthur prices and shipping fees for small bags of flour (3 pounds). If you go with the KABF, I would use a hydration value of 62%. Most professionals who make the NY style pizza, especially those who have to rely on low-cost labor and can't devote enough time to train them to work with higher hydration values, use around 57-58%. Those values are quite good for beginners to start with since the dough is not as extensible. With practice and experience, the hydration values can gradually be increased to as high as 64-65%.

Peter

[kerrymarcy]

Pete-zza,

Thanks for the water % using KABF!  This will be my next bake.  I'll let you know how it turns out.  Thank you!

Kerry

[wilsonc91]

Hi guys,

Im having trouble getting my doll stretched out thin enough before it starts tearing / pulling itself back. Any advice?

[Pete-zza]

Im having trouble getting my doll stretched out thin enough before it starts tearing / pulling itself back. Any advice?

wilsonc91,

Since you posted in this thread, I assume that you have been using a Lehmann NY style dough. It might help to know which specific Lehmann dough recipe you used but the problem you mentioned in the context of a standard Lehmann NY style dough can have many potential causes, including overkneading or underkneading the dough, insufficient fermentation time, overhandling the dough just prior to using (such as re-kneading, re-balling or re-working the dough just before opening it up), working with the dough while it is cold (e.g., directly out of the refrigerator or without sufficient tempering/warmup at room temperature), or difficulties in opening up the dough so that the thickness at the center of the skin is not materially less than the rest of the skin. A dough that is overfermented can also develop tears and holes but usually such a dough will not spring back when forming and stretching into a skin. If you used a preferment or starter version of a Lehmann dough, under certain conditions that could also result in a dough that is too strong and prone to overelasticity. Do any of these possibilities strike a familiar chord?

Peter