Author Topic: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza  (Read 475420 times)

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #960 on: March 14, 2012, 08:35:13 AM »
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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #961 on: March 14, 2012, 08:36:14 AM »
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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #962 on: March 14, 2012, 08:37:58 AM »
Norma
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Offline franko9752

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #963 on: March 14, 2012, 10:19:53 AM »
Norma, you are a Pizza Artist! :chef:

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #964 on: March 14, 2012, 10:49:01 AM »
Norma, you are a Pizza Artist! :chef:

Frank,

Thank you for your kind comment, but I am not really a pizza artist.  I just like to play around with different dough formulations to see what happens.  I never get tired of trying new ones.  :-D

Norma
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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #965 on: March 14, 2012, 10:51:43 AM »
Steveís Lehmann dough formulation worked out very well yesterday for making the pizzas for market.  I had changed the yeast amount on Monday to 0.50% for a one day cold ferment.  The resulting pizzas tasted and almost looked the same as when using the preferment Lehmann dough.  I made Greek Style pizzas and pizza pinwheels and other products with Steveís Lehmann dough formulation.  They all worked out well.  Some of the dough balls had to be opened cold right from the pizza prep fridge.  The cold dough balls did open well, but there was a couple of small bubbles from opening the dough balls without any temper time.


Norma,

In a way, it looks like you have come full circle.

I vividly remember when you first sought my advice on a NY style pizza at the New York Style board at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8341.msg71952.html#msg71952, where I gave you a version of the Lehmann NY style dough formulation at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8341.msg71965.html#msg71965. That was almost three years ago. From there, having decided that you wanted something better, you graduated to the preferment Lehmann dough formulation, starting with your post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg86106.html#msg86106. Now it looks like your are back to the original Lehmann dough formulation but using a higher hydration value (from 58% to 60%), more yeast to achieve a shorter cold ferment duration, a bit of sugar (always an option with the Lehmann NY style dough formulation) and more oil. The thickness factor remains essentially the same. Since you seem satisfied with your recent results using Steve's version of the Lehmann NY style dough formulation, do you plan on going to that formulation at market and possibly jettisoning the preferment Lehmann version? Or will you have to test customer reaction, and/or your taste testers, before considering that? As you know, the preferment Lehmann pizzas have a considerably thicker crust, which you have always seemed to prefer for the NY style, so it may take some market testing to see if that is important to your particular customer base.

Peter

Offline JimmyG

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #966 on: March 14, 2012, 11:12:57 AM »
Quote
Thank you for your kind comment, but I am not really a pizza artist.  I just like to play around with different dough formulations to see what happens.  I never get tired of trying new ones.
Norma,
You're too modest, those are some truly spectacular looking pies. That spinach and bacon one...OMG that looks good.
Quote
Since you seem satisfied with your recent results using Steve's version of the Lehmann NY style dough formulation, do you plan on going to that formulation at market and possibly jettisoning the preferment Lehmann version?
Judging by your successes with Steve's dough formula, he maybe asking for royalties if you take his formulation to market. ;D
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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #967 on: March 14, 2012, 11:28:51 AM »
Norma,

In a way, it looks like you have come full circle.

I vividly remember when you first sought my advice on a NY style pizza at the New York Style board at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8341.msg71952.html#msg71952, where I gave you a version of the Lehmann NY style dough formulation at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8341.msg71965.html#msg71965. That was almost three years ago. From there, having decided that you wanted something better, you graduated to the preferment Lehmann dough formulation, starting with your post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg86106.html#msg86106. Now it looks like your are back to the original Lehmann dough formulation but using a higher hydration value (from 58% to 60%), more yeast to achieve a shorter cold ferment duration, a bit of sugar (always an option with the Lehmann NY style dough formulation) and more oil. The thickness factor remains essentially the same. Since you seem satisfied with your recent results using Steve's version of the Lehmann NY style dough formulation, do you plan on going to that formulation at market and possibly jettisoning the preferment Lehmann version? Or will you have to test customer reaction, and/or your taste testers, before considering that? As you know, the preferment Lehmann pizzas have a considerably thicker crust, which you have always seemed to prefer for the NY style, so it may take some market testing to see if that is important to your particular customer base.

Peter



Peter,

I know, it does look like I am coming back full circle.  I know you have given me so much advice and been patient with me in all my adventures with the Lehmann doughs.  I have to chuckle whenever I look back at my first posts.  :-D When I look back at my first thread, I think what nerve I had in asking you to help me on one of my first posts.  :-[ I still am not sure if I want to keep using Steveís Lehmann dough formulation, but the taste testers and my regular customers couldnít tell the difference in the taste or looks of the pizzas I made yesterday.  Just to give you a few examples, there is the one lady that runs her dadís stand next to me in the morning and usually always buys some of my pizzas.  Her sons come along sometimes because they are home schooled.  They all really like my pizzas.  Yesterday they purchased a whole pie with pepperoni around lunch time.  The one son is really picky about what kind of pizza he will eat and always says my pizzas are the best.  I didnít tell them that my dough had changed from the previous week.  When all three of them were almost finished eating the whole pizza I asked them if they noticed any difference in the taste of the crust or anything else.  Not one of them could tell any difference.  I then told them my dough was changed from all the previous times.  They said the pizza still tasted the same to them.  I also asked a few of my other regular customers if they could tell the difference in the pizzas from yesterday and they couldnít.  I had a couple of new customers yesterday and they came back to tell me I made really great tasting pizzas.  My regular taste testers canít tell any difference either. I sure donít know what I am going to do right now.  I have to think this whole thing over more.  What do you really think a preferment brings to the Lehmann dough?  I know you also tried an experiment with a preferment for a Lehmann dough on my long preferment Lehmann dough thread, but think you used a different amount of preferment in your formulation.  To me right now Steveís formulation seems just about right, but then I havenít tried it out during all seasons of the year.  

I guess if is always a womanís prerogative to change her mind.  :P

Norma
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 09:28:37 AM by norma427 »
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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #968 on: March 14, 2012, 11:37:34 AM »
Norma,
You're too modest, those are some truly spectacular looking pies. That spinach and bacon one...OMG that looks good.Judging by your successes with Steve's dough formula, he maybe asking for royalties if you take his formulation to market. ;D


Jimmy,

Thank you for your kind comment!  :)  Steve and I are good buddies and I donít think he would ask me for royalties for using his formulation.  :o If I hadnít tried out Peterís formulation like I posted at Reply 940 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg175315.html#msg175315  (linked in that post) maybe Steveís wouldnít have decided to change his Lehmann dough formulation.  Steve and I try to work together.
 8)  I had tried Peter's formulation for a Mack's pizza in the boardwalk thread.  There was something about that formulation that had me excited, but didn't really understand at the time where it would take me.

Norma
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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #969 on: March 14, 2012, 12:04:48 PM »
Norma,

From day one, I felt that if I were in your shoes contemplating a one day a week pizza business, especially after learning of the rules and restrictions imposed upon you by the people who run the market, I would have gone with a straightforward cold fermentented dough. If, say, a three-day cold fermentation wasn't doable because of those rules and restrictions, then I would have tried a one-day cold ferment. The reason for all of this is because I don't think that ordinary customers in a rural market in the middle of Pennsylvania somewhere expect an especially artisan product. Preferments are good, as are natural starters, but they can be temperamental. You save a lot of time and effort and uncertainty avoiding them.

I also realize that pizza is not only a business matter with you. Otherwise, you would not have spent the last three and a half years testing a hundred or more different pizzas in search of that single magic bullet pizza to sell one day a week. Pizza is in your blood, and you are addicted to it. And there is a strong social component in all of this, as evidenced by the relationships and fun that you have at market with Steve and your taste testers, and creating your own webpage and your participation at Slice and elsewhere. And, that camaraderie carries on outside of the forum, with other members on the forum who have the same passion and addiction (a healthy one, I think) about pizza as you do. If you had started all of this some years ago, we most likely would have seen you go professional and in a much larger setting, just as has happened with several of our members, and with more to come.

Peter


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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #970 on: March 14, 2012, 12:27:54 PM »
And to you Peter, you are a true Pizza Scholar :chef:

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #971 on: March 14, 2012, 12:32:21 PM »
Norma,

From day one, I felt that if I were in your shoes contemplating a one day a week pizza business, especially after learning of the rules and restrictions imposed upon you by the people who run the market, I would have gone with a straightforward cold fermentented dough. If, say, a three-day cold fermentation wasn't doable because of those rules and restrictions, then I would have tried a one-day cold ferment. The reason for all of this is because I don't think that ordinary customers in a rural market in the middle of Pennsylvania somewhere expect an especially artisan product. Preferments are good, as are natural starters, but they can be temperamental. You save a lot of time and effort and uncertainty avoiding them.

I also realize that pizza is not only a business matter with you. Otherwise, you would not have spent the last three and a half years testing a hundred or more different pizzas in search of that single magic bullet pizza to sell one day a week. Pizza is in your blood, and you are addicted to it. And there is a strong social component in all of this, as evidenced by the relationships and fun that you have at market with Steve and your taste testers, and creating your own webpage and your participation at Slice and elsewhere. And, that camaraderie carries on outside of the forum, with other members on the forum who have the same passion and addiction (a healthy one, I think) about pizza as you do. If you had started all of this some years ago, we most likely would have seen you go professional and in a much larger setting, just as has happened with several of our members, and with more to come.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your thoughts about if you were in my shoes and couldnít do a 3 day cold ferment (because of rules and restrictions at market)you would have thought of using a straightforward one day cold ferment.  I have had customers from NY that have eaten many pizzas in NY and many have told me my pizzas are very good.  That makes me feel good, although I donít know what pizzas they have tried. 

As you know from all my experiments pizza isnít just a business matter for me.  Pizza is a very personal thing to me in many ways.  I enjoy experimenting and tasting each pizza.  I really donít know how healthy all this is in always trying to find the perfect pizza or as near as each person can get to find that pizza. That part has me uncertain at times.

Many of my customers ask me if I have a larger pizza business somewhere.  I wish I could tell them I did, but I am way too old to even think about having a full-time pizza business.  Maybe if I was younger, I would jump at the chance of owning a bigger pizza business.  A little over 3 years ago I didnít have the foggiest idea of how to make pizza.  :-D I talked to Adam Kuban when we were on the pizza tour and he asked me how I got into the pizza business.  I told him the manager at market had wanted a fresh pizza stand there and I said I could do that, but knew nothing about making pizza.  With all the help from members of this forum, you, and experimenting it finally worked out okay.  I would like to thank everyone for all of their help!  :)

Norma
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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #972 on: March 14, 2012, 05:09:54 PM »
You're welcome, Norma. >:D :angel: :-D

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #973 on: March 14, 2012, 06:48:32 PM »
You're welcome, Norma. >:D :angel: :-D

Steve,

Although I haven't officially thanked you, I will thank you right now!  :chef:  See if you can tell the difference in what dough I am using next week.   >:D

Norma
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Offline communist

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #974 on: March 14, 2012, 09:38:28 PM »
Very nice pies Norma!  I was in Lancaster for 10 years and enjoyed Roots Market.  I got to get back and have some of your pizza!  Since you are the "godmother" of NY sourdough style oven deck pizza, your evaluation finding no perceptable difference between sourdough and non sourdough Lehman cold ferment is newsworthy!  I have not gotten into sourdough for my NY pie, but often consider it.  Others such as Chau have been cautious about advising me to jump into sourdoughs for my NY pie, and Scott 123 is not a big fan either.  I now am even more hesitant.  Thanks for your work  generous sharing of your work!  Mark

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #975 on: March 14, 2012, 10:35:38 PM »
Very nice pies Norma!  I was in Lancaster for 10 years and enjoyed Roots Market.  I got to get back and have some of your pizza!  Since you are the "godmother" of NY sourdough style oven deck pizza, your evaluation finding no perceptable difference between sourdough and non sourdough Lehman cold ferment is newsworthy!  I have not gotten into sourdough for my NY pie, but often consider it.  Others such as Chau have been cautious about advising me to jump into sourdoughs for my NY pie, and Scott 123 is not a big fan either.  I now am even more hesitant.  Thanks for your work  generous sharing of your work!  Mark


Mark,

Thanks for your nice comments!  :) Rootís Farmer's Market and Auction is really a nice old-fashioned farmers market as you already know.  It has been around since 1925.  I am not the ďgodmotherĒ of NY sourdough style, but did try the Lehmann dough with two sourdough formulations.  One being at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.0.html and the other is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.0.html  I have been using the preferment Lehmann dough at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.0.html for a couple of years.  I had tried the milk kefir preferment and Ischia sourdough starter, but gave up on them because of the erratic yearly swings in market temperature.  The preferment Lehmann dough was much easier to handle because the preferment (not sourdough, but made with IDY) was made on a Friday and left to cold ferment until Monday before I made the final dough.  It is then left to cold ferment for one day.  I wouldnít hesitate to try a sourdough preferment again in a NY style pizza, but wouldnít do it for market.  I am still feeding my Ischia starter. 

Steve was kind enough to share his NY style formulation with me and it works in his home oven and in my deck oven.  I am not to sure about my home oven though.  Steveís home oven can get up to 550 degrees F and my home oven can only get up to 500 degrees F or a little higher, so Steve has the advantage of a higher oven temperature at his home.

Anytime you get back to Rootís stop in and see Steve and me.

Norma
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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #976 on: March 15, 2012, 09:12:48 AM »
Mark,

  The preferment Lehmann dough was much easier to handle because the preferment (not sourdough, but made with IDY) was made on a Friday and left to cold ferment until Monday before I made the final
  Thanks for the information Norma!  I am sorry, I equated preferment with sourdough on the forum for the past year.  I have some reading to do!  It is beautiful in Lancaster County this time of year. Hope to get down there soon!  Mark

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #977 on: March 15, 2012, 09:22:31 AM »
  Thanks for the information Norma!  I am sorry, I equated preferment with sourdough on the forum for the past year.  I have some reading to do!  It is beautiful in Lancaster County this time of year. Hope to get down there soon!  Mark

Mark,

I also mixed-up preferments for a long while.  The preferment I used in all of my sourdough Lehmann doughs and preferment Lehmann dough is a poolish.  The preferment Lehmann poolish just had equal amounts of water and flour with added IDY.

Really to me there isnít a great big difference in using a preferment in the regular Lehmann dough, but I can tell a difference.  I donít think the average person would be able to tell the difference.

Yes, it is beautiful in Lancaster county this time of year.  The Amish are out plowing.  Hope to see you sometime.  :)

Norma
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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #978 on: March 15, 2012, 12:02:47 PM »
Norma,

I am 100% with Peter on his observation that average Joe is not going to pick up on your dough change.I have seen a lot of people eat a lot of pizza over many years of selling and just watching and I believe ya gotta throw 'em a pretty good curve before they notice a change.
Just out of curiosity, Norma, have you ever tried garlic powder in your Lehmannn's doughs at Market?
I think MM pretzels would be a great "twist" on the traditional pretzel theme and just might be a hit....advertise them as "Sweet Pretzels" maybe, or something like that...?
Sorry to hear the MM pizzas aren't doing as well as they should.....maybe just needs a bit more time to catch on. Fresh, bright colored "veggies" are big right now ,as I'm sure you know. We see them everywhere, on everything. An MM dough with a bright white cheese as the backdrop for broccoli,and tri-colored peppers sitting out front in your display case,although "gourmet"  looking would certainly draw me into it.....and I"m a rural kind of guy ! 8)  But I'm sure you've already been trying these things,....you're a clever lady.   ;)

Keep up the good work, Norma. Changing that dough would lighten your load though, eh ?  Good luck.

Bob
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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #979 on: March 15, 2012, 12:26:37 PM »
Norma,

I am 100% with Peter on his observation that average Joe is not going to pick up on your dough change.I have seen a lot of people eat a lot of pizza over many years of selling and just watching and I believe ya gotta throw 'em a pretty good curve before they notice a change.
Just out of curiosity, Norma, have you ever tried garlic powder in your Lehmannn's doughs at Market?
I think MM pretzels would be a great "twist" on the traditional pretzel theme and just might be a hit....advertise them as "Sweet Pretzels" maybe, or something like that...?
Sorry to hear the MM pizzas aren't doing as well as they should.....maybe just needs a bit more time to catch on. Fresh, bright colored "veggies" are big right now ,as I'm sure you know. We see them everywhere, on everything. An MM dough with a bright white cheese as the backdrop for broccoli,and tri-colored peppers sitting out front in your display case,although "gourmet"  looking would certainly draw me into it.....and I"m a rural kind of guy ! 8)  But I'm sure you've already been trying these things,....you're a clever lady.   ;)

Keep up the good work, Norma. Changing that dough would lighten your load though, eh ?  Good luck.

Bob

Bob,

Thanks so much for your thoughts and good luck!  :) I donít think either the average person would be able to tell if I decide to change my dough.  I am still not sure what I am going to decide to do. I might make half of my doughs this week with the preferment and half with Steveís formulation and get some taste testers to see what they think. 

I havenít tried garlic powder in the Lehmann dough, but I know Steve did.  It turned out very tasty.   ;D

We have many soft pretzels in our area  (our area in known for soft pretzels, and the one soft pretzel stand has been at market for many years) and at least three stands at market sell old-fashioned soft pretzels and soft pretzels like Auntie Anneís, so I am not sure how well even an MM soft pretzel will fair.  I know fresh vegetables on a pizza look very nice and also taste great.  :P  I wish I could be able to offer some more regular NY style pizzas with vegetables (because there are so many at market), but I have limited space at market. 

You are right that changing my dough would lighten my work load.  I still have to go to market to clean, fold boxes, and do stuff that needs to be done on a weekly basis, but I wouldnít have to go exactly on a Friday.  The preferment part of the Lehmann dough doesnít take really long to prepare, but it has to be started on a Friday.  Then there are also more things to wash when using the preferment. 

If I decide to switch over to Steveís formula for the Lehmann dough I will start another thread.  One thing that concerned me was that two pizzas had to be put on screens at the end of the bake or the bottom crusts would have been too brown.  I think that was in the middle of the afternoon when market wasnít as busy, so I guess my deck was hotter from not opening the doors as much.  I am not to sure of that though. 

Norma
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