Author Topic: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza (Read 398669 times)

norma427 · « **Reply #860 on:** July 13, 2010, 11:21:14 PM »

Jason,

Your pie looks great.

Good job!

Norma

atx33 · « **Reply #861 on:** August 05, 2010, 11:55:54 AM »

Hello everyone, new poster here but I have been reading the forum for a while. I have started to get into making pizza about 6 months ago and have been duplicating Tom Lehmann's recipe/and Pete-zza's 1st initial post on this thread, except I have been using KABF. The dough has turned out very good (except a couple times the dough has been to elastic to work with, I think I am over kneading) but overall people really like it.

Well I am looking to take it to the next level so I finally shelled out and ordered KASL but was wanting to make some pizza for friends this weekend and was curious if there is anything I can add to help the protein %? One person I talked to mentioned adding semolina but I am uncertain if that will help.

I apologize if this is a dumb question.

I really do appreciate any help.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #862 on:** August 05, 2010, 03:16:03 PM »

Quote from: atx33 on August 05, 2010, 11:55:54 AM

I finally shelled out and ordered KASL but was wanting to make some pizza for friends this weekend and was curious if there is anything I can add to help the protein %? One person I talked to mentioned adding semolina but I am uncertain if that will help.

I apologize if this is a dumb question.

atx33,

That is not a dumb question at all. There are some pizza operators who do use semolina flour as part of their flour blend to make the NY style. However, that is not particularly common for that style. In your case, if you plan to use KASL, which is a high-gluten flour, I don't see any compelling need to supplement it with anything else. However, if you would like to try out a KASL/semolina blend, I would try using semolina at around 15-20% of the total blend. I have used semolina as part of flour blends and like it quite a bit even though it is not representative of the classic NY style.

Peter

gtsum2 · « **Reply #863 on:** August 07, 2010, 10:07:28 PM »

anyone using the bread flour from sams? I have been using King Arthur Bread Flour, but decided to give the sam's a whirl - so far so good, but I have not done a thin NY style yet with it (did american style and it was good).

james456 · « **Reply #864 on:** August 08, 2010, 09:33:21 AM »

I'm venturing into NY style pizza making after successful attempts at mimicking a Papa Johns pizza via Pete's recipe.

I'm in the UK, so I don't have access to the KASL (14.2% protein content) flour common to most formulations. I've sourced two brands of flour with differing values of protein content (PC), one with 13.9% and the other with 14.8%. I don't currently have access to VWG and from the brief search I've done, it may seem difficult to source.

In the meantime, I'd like to experiment with Tom Lehmann's NY style recipe using the above flours.

Here's where I need your expertise: what will I have to adjust for each of the two flours?

If it helps, I'll be baking these pizzas in a convectional oven with a max temp. of 250c/482f using unglazed quarry tiles as the pizza stone (I'm also in the process of sourcing Soapstone).

Pete-zza · « **Reply #865 on:** August 08, 2010, 10:10:30 AM »

james456,

Can you tell us what brands of flours you are considering?

Peter

james456 · « **Reply #866 on:** August 08, 2010, 11:02:46 AM »

Pete-zza,

Sure, the flours:

Brand: Sainsbury's Very Strong Canadian Bread Flour, Taste the Difference 1kg
Link:http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/frameset/redirect.jsp;GROSESSIONID=MpFClsqLTy3tnMfywWxmysmtF1T18XvHvNLZb5GPHSLJ3zRrVnTh!-339279265!-1745459902?bmForm=deep_link_groceries_search_javascript&bmFormID=1281279334006&bmUID=1281279334006
Nutrition info (per 100g):

Energy............1444kJ/340kcal
Protein............14.8g
Carbohydrate....67.3g
Total Sugars.....1.4g
Starch.............65.9g
Fat.................1.3g
Saturates.........0.3g
Fibre................3.0g
Salt.................trace
Sodium.............0.00g

Brand: Allison's Premium White Very Strong Bread Flour
Link: http://www.allinsonflour.co.uk/products/premium-white-very-strong-bread-flour.html
Nutrition info (per 100g):

Energy...................1429KJ/337kcal
Protein...................13.9g
Carbohydrate..........67.1g
of which sugars.......1.4g
Fat.......................1.4g
of which saturates...0.2g
Fibre.....................3.1g
Sodium..................0.003g

Pete-zza · « **Reply #867 on:** August 08, 2010, 11:53:23 AM »

james456,

If you are planning to use a dough formulation that calls for KASL or other similar high-gluten flour, you should be able to use either of the flours you mentioned without changing anything in the formulation. If you tell me which formulation you are planning to use, I think I should be able to confirm my advice.

Peter

james456 · « **Reply #868 on:** August 08, 2010, 12:27:07 PM »

Pete-zza,

The formulation:

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.25%):
Salt (1.75%):
Oil (1%):
Total (166%):

270.79 g | 9.55 oz | 0.6 lbs
170.6 g | 6.02 oz | 0.38 lbs
0.68 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.22 tsp | 0.07 tbsp
4.74 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.85 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
2.71 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.6 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
449.51 g | 15.86 oz | 0.99 lbs | TF = 0.103

Bowl residue compensation: 3%.

This formulation is based on the one found here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5674.html#msg5674

Pete-zza · « **Reply #869 on:** August 08, 2010, 01:30:42 PM »

james456,

I think you should be fine with the dough formulation you posted and the one you referenced. If you plan on hand kneading the dough, you may want to let the dough rest from time to time while kneading to improve the hydration of the dough, which can be a problem sometimes when hand kneading a dough made with high-gluten flour. You will note, for example, that King Arthur recommends that doughs made with its King Arthur high-gluten flour be made in a machine, as I noted at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4282.msg35764.html#msg35764. However, as pointed out in the abovereferenced post, for a dough that is to be hand kneaded to the point of being somewhat underkneaded, you should not have a problem with either of the two high-gluten flours you mentioned. You also have the option of increasing the hydration a bit on the bench if you find it necessary.

Peter

scott123 · « **Reply #870 on:** August 08, 2010, 02:13:41 PM »

James, member brayshaw (Paul) has been testing bread flours available to UK bakers for a few months now in preparation for a NY style pizzeria that he's opening later this year. I would both read through a few of his posts as well as drop him a line to ascertain his thoughts about the two flours you're considering.

He recently made two good looking pizzas with 'supermarket Canadian flour,'

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11560.msg105951.html#msg105951

and that may be the Sainbury's, but I'd check with him to confirm.

The UK flour market, as Paul has witnessed, can be a little tricky to navigate. Sometimes the protein numbers have a wide margin of error. For instance- that 14.8% for the Sainbury's feels freakishly high.

Getting the right flour helps, but having the right oven setup is critical. 482F, even with soapstone, isn't going to give you enough heat for bake times short enough for the kind of oven spring you want for NY Style. It's close (550 with soapstone is pretty respectable), but not close enough. You're going to want to look into some sort of oven workaround:

Baking a Varasano pizza on 250c/480f oven

Pete-zza · « **Reply #871 on:** August 08, 2010, 02:31:00 PM »

I agree that 14.8% protein looks high but it is possible that the protein content is being specified on a "dry basis" rather than a "wet basis" as is used in the U.S. This distinction is discussed at page 5 at http://web.archive.org/web/20060822034202/http://www.kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/15ec5c94af1251cdac2d7a25848f0e27/miscdocs/Flour+Guide.pdf.

In Reply 864 in this thread, james456 indicates that he is looking into a soapstone source. Whether that will be adequate in his oven remains to be seen.

Peter

jw · « **Reply #872 on:** August 17, 2010, 03:00:01 PM »

help!1

Newbie here.

I thought I had this right. Using the dough calculator I mixed 100% flour, 63% H20, .5 % ADY, .5 Salt, 1% oil. and got a sticky mess. I made 3 batches last night using KASL, KA Italian, and a 00 brand that I cant remeber. All were a sticky mess. I used this recipe before and ity seemed to work.

The ADY came out of the fridge(? a problem) and all dry ingrediants were mixed than added to water then oil. I thought I followed the Lehman video but I must be missing soemthing.

We are cooking in a WFO.
Thanks in advance.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #873 on:** August 17, 2010, 03:25:58 PM »

jw,

Can you provide more detail on how you sequenced the ingredients when you made the three doughs, and also whether you used a stand mixer, hand kneading, etc.? I assume that you did not use flour blends, only the individual flours you mentioned. Did you rehydrate the ADY before using and, if so, how specifically did you do it? Finally, what water temperature did you use?

Peter

jw · « **Reply #874 on:** August 17, 2010, 04:16:05 PM »

mixed flour, yeast and salt in a kitchen aid mixing bowl. poured in water. mixed 2-3 minutes scrapping dry ingredints into wet. let sit ~20 minutes. continued mixing adding oil for ~5-6 minutes. Did not rehydrate ADY prior to mixing for first 2 batches(you are correct, no mixing of flour). Rehydrated ADY for last with small % of H2O from total H20 requirement. This was even a larger stickeier mess. The kids said it all had the consistency of icing while in the mixing bowl. Tap water ~100 degrees.

Viewing the Lehman videos on You Tube it looks as if they add it all in dry, and water then oil and PRESTO!

maybe I'm thinking too much, its jsut dough.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #875 on:** August 17, 2010, 05:03:56 PM »

jw,

Of the three flours you mentioned, the only one that would work properly with the set of baker's percents you mentioned, including a hydration of 63%, is the KASL. And, if you used ADY for that dough batch, you should have rehydrated the ADY in a small amount of the formula water at a temperature of around 105 degrees F for about 10 minutes. At that point, the rehydrated ADY could either be added to the rest of the ingredients in the mixer bowl or to the rest of the formula water, which would ideally be on the cool or cold side for a dough that is to be cold fermented.

The KA Italian flour is a domestic "clone" of the Italian 00 flour. It has a protein content of about 8.5%. By contrast, the KASL has a protein content of 14.2%. Apart from the fact that the KA Italian flour is not intended to be used to make a NY style pizza, it won't work with a hydration of 63%. You would perhaps need a hydration of around 54-55%, and maybe even a bit less than that.

The other (unnamed) Italian flour (00 flour) you mentioned would be prone to the same hydration problem as the KA Italian flour, and using rehydrated ADY for the dough made using this flour would not save it. A 63% hydration would just be too much for this flour. Even the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour, with a protein content of 11.5-12.5%, which is higher than most 00 flours and can tolerate higher hydration values than other 00 flours, has a rated absorption value (hydration) of 54-56%, although it is possible to use a somewhat higher hydration if you have a very high temperature oven to bake the pizzas. Like the KA Italian flour, the 00 flour is not intended to be used to make a NY style pizza. Both of these flours are intended to be used to make Neapolitan style pizzas, although I would proceed with caution when using the KA 00 clone flour for that style.

There are apparently some stand mixers, like the Bosch mixer, where you can just about throw all of the ingredients into the mixer bowl and start mixing/kneading the dough. That is uncommon. Most other home stand mixers require a more organized sequencing of the ingredients to get good results.

I am pretty certain that the dough that you saw in the Lehmann video used IDY. IDY can be added directly to the flour, as can the salt. Some people put the IDY on one side of the flour and the salt on the other before starting the mixing operation, or alternatively they dissolve the salt in the water before adding the rest of the dry ingredients. Even Tom Lehmann will tell you to rehydrate ADY if you use it, in the same manner as I described above. There should be no problem rehydrating ADY that comes right out of the refrigerator. Using warm water at the proper temperature should be adequate.

Peter

jw · « **Reply #876 on:** August 19, 2010, 04:31:23 PM »

Peter,

Your knowledge base on the subject is unbelievable and much appreciated.

I made the dough as directed using KASL and 105 degree water and rehydrated ADY. The dough consistency out of the mixing bowl was fine and felt ok. 4 equally split balls went into the fridge over night in a 11x 9 covered pyrex baking pan. The dough balls increased ~3-4 times original size and spittling one open it seemed to conatin too many gas bubbles? Again my igornanace for the whole thing is showing through.

We will be baking tonight no matter what. We have a WFO that works pretty well.

My kids wnat me to duplicate the new York style crust rather than the Neopolitan if that makes sense.

jw

Pete-zza · « **Reply #877 on:** August 19, 2010, 06:35:33 PM »

jw,

The Lehmann dough should not have tripled or quadrupled in volume. However, that could happen, or something close to it, if you used all of the water you used to rehydrate the ADY at 105 degrees F rather than just a small amount of it at that temperature (you only need about three or four times the weight of the ADY to rehydrate it). Also, if the four dough balls did not cool down fast enough in the refrigerator, then that might have accelerated the fermentation process and caused the multiple expansion you experienced. That is something that sometimes happens to pizza operators when they cover their storage boxes when they are put into their coolers rather than leaving them uncovered until the dough balls have had a chance to cool down. This can cause the dough balls to "blow", which is the term that is used to describe a dramatic and excessive expansion of the dough over a period of several hours or even overnight (even in their coolers). Next time, you might put the dough balls into your Pyrex container (in the refrigerator) but leave the Pyrex container uncovered for about an hour or more before putting the cover back on the Pyrex container. That should allow the dough balls to cool down more quickly and slow down the fermentation process. They shouldn't "blow".

I assume that you did not let the dough balls sit at room temperature for any appreciable time before putting them into your Pyrex container and then into the refrigerator. This time of year, where it is hot in many parts of the country, the dough balls can warm up quite quickly and start to ferment, possibly too quickly. If your refrigerator is not cool enough, that can also cause the dough balls to ferment too quickly, especially if the dough balls are near the front of the refrigerator storage compartment or the refrigerator door is opened and closed too much.

As you can see, there are several possible ways for dough balls to ferment too quickly. Sometimes, there is only one cause, but there can be multiple simultaneous causes. You might be able to identify if any of the above causes were present in your case.

At this point, I would try to use the dough balls to see if they have not overfermented to the point where you don't get acceptable results. If they are overfermented, you should be able to tell if the dough balls seem overly wet or slack, or the dough balls are difficult to open without tears or rips forming, or if the final baked crusts are light colored, thin and crackery, or with poor texture. You might try making one pizza before making the others just in case the dough is unusable. You don't want to waste your sauce, cheese and toppings if the dough is not functioning properly.

Please let us know how things turn out.

Peter

jw · « **Reply #878 on:** August 20, 2010, 02:29:42 PM »

Learning again. All of my water was @105. Does the non 105 degree water need to be chilled or at room temp? I assume then I can mix the rehydrated ADY with the remaining water and mix. I had dissolved the salt in the non ADY water. Will this cause a problem?

The dough did work and tasted ok. It seemed a little hard to work with and tore in places. We had dough for 8 pies and ended up with 5 pizzas. We played around abit and the kids made a calzone, some "bread sticks" and I totally lost one putting it in the oven.

I need to watch some videos on forming and tossing as this definately needs work. I also think the oven temp was too high yesterday but that can be easily corrected. We had charred crust in places.

Again thanks for you help.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #879 on:** August 20, 2010, 03:49:18 PM »

jw,

My practice is to have the part of the formula water that is not used to rehydrate the ADY at a temperature that will hopefully give me a finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F. That water temperature will be much lower in the summer months and quite a bit higher in the winter months. I use cool/cold water from the refrigerator or warmed water from my microwave unit, as needed.

It is fine to add the rehydrated ADY to the rest of the formula water. Normally, one then moves on fairly quickly to combine the rest of the ingredients.

There is no problem in dissolving the salt in the part of the formula water that is not used to rehydrate the ADY. In fact, that is what you want to do, although it is also OK to add the salt to the flour.

For dough forming and shaping help, you might want to take a look at the Lehmann/Zeak and Tony Gemignani videos at

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSC11vo5Nmo&feature=related" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSC11vo5Nmo&feature=related</a>

,

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVbIbTDiCJ0&feature=related" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVbIbTDiCJ0&feature=related</a>

,

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw_IQWlV52M&feature=related" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw_IQWlV52M&feature=related</a>

and

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA</a>

. However, as you view the videos, you should keep in mind that Lehmann/Zeak and Gemignani are using dough made in commercial mixers. If you are using a basic home stand mixer, your dough balls are unlikely to be as robust as theirs and, consequently, won't be as easy to open and shape into skins.

Peter