Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza

[CDNpielover]

dumb question, but should i be punching down my lehmann dough?

thanks!

[Pete-zza]

dumb question, but should i be punching down my lehmann dough?

The Lehmann dough formulation is a commercial dough formulation intended for cold fermentation applications and, as such, calls for a small amount of yeast and water that is on the cool side. So there shouldn't be a large enough rise of the dough during fermentation to require punching down. However, if you are making an "emergency", or short-time, version of the Lehmann dough that is intended to be made and used within a few hours, and uses a lot more yeast and very warm water, then there might be a need to punch the dough down at some point (e.g., before a final proof).

Peter

[haybot]

Didn't know which thread to hijack but wanted to post it so i ended up here since this is where i started out.

I've been trying different formulations now and then and went for something quite different from what i used. I started with the Lehmann Hand Knead dough from this thread and ended up using a formulation that i found in Essen1's thread. I really liked the dough and how it turned out in my oven so i just went with it for the last 2 month.

Flour (100%)
Water (60%)
Brown Sugar (3%)
Sea salt (2%)
Oil (2%)
Yeast (ADY = .3%)

I used 180g of flour (i think its bread flour, type 550 in germany) for a 12" pie.
I have yet to perfect my pizza photography (and i have to keep myself from eating the pies before i manage to take pictures).

I used both dry and fresh mozzarella. The fresh one was added a bit later to get these white spots on the pie.
First one is mushrooms, bell peppers, red onions and corn. The crust turned out a bit to brown because i added the fresh mozzarella a bit to late and wanted it to melt a little more. Second one is pineapple and bacon.

I'm really happy how my pies turn out. Thanks to this forum!

[fireman117]

Peter,

I used the recipe from posts 407,408 3 hour rise time with great results. Excellent flavor and I could stretch the skin out very easily. Nice change, I usually have a difficult time! I usually use the 3 day cold ferment style , but I think this is a really great alternative if you don't have the time.

Peter as always great job, and thank you from all us budding pizza makers!
Check out the pics.

Eric

[Pete-zza]

Eric,

You did a very nice job with your emergency dough pizzas. I agree that there are times when being able to make pizzas on short notice comes in real handy.

If you are interested, you can find some other emergency NY style dough recipes in the collection at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8297.msg71576.html#msg71576.

Peter

[Essen1]

Didn't know which thread to hijack but wanted to post it so i ended up here since this is where i started out.

I've been trying different formulations now and then and went for something quite different from what i used. I started with the Lehmann Hand Knead dough from this thread and ended up using a formulation that i found in Essen1's thread. I really liked the dough and how it turned out in my oven so i just went with it for the last 2 month.

Flour (100%)
Water (60%)
Brown Sugar (3%)
Sea salt (2%)
Oil (2%)
Yeast (ADY = .3%)

I used 180g of flour (i think its bread flour, type 550 in germany) for a 12" pie.
I have yet to perfect my pizza photography (and i have to keep myself from eating the pies before i manage to take pictures).

I used both dry and fresh mozzarella. The fresh one was added a bit later to get these white spots on the pie.
First one is mushrooms, bell peppers, red onions and corn. The crust turned out a bit to brown because i added the fresh mozzarella a bit to late and wanted it to melt a little more. Second one is pineapple and bacon.

I'm really happy how my pies turn out. Thanks to this forum!

Haybot,

Glad to hear that you enjoy the formula so far.

As far as the German Flour Type 550 is concerned, it's comparable to the All-purpose flour over here. I would try maybe a blend of Type 550/1050 in a 70/30% ratio. That should give you an even better, more rustic crust.

[Pete-zza]

A little over five years ago, Steve, the owner and Administrator of this forum, marvelled at the fact that this thread had reached almost 18,000 page views (Reply 274 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17536.html#msg17536). As evidence of the popularity of the forum and the NY style as the membership and viewership have grown, this thread just recently passed the quarter-million page view mark.

We now have a large number of threads with more than 18,000 page views, and a bunch with over 50,000 page views and a few with over 100,000 page views.

Peter

[norma427]

A little over five years ago, Steve, the owner and Administrator of this forum, marvelled at the fact that this thread had reached almost 18,000 page views (Reply 274 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17536.html#msg17536). As evidence of the popularity of the forum and the NY style as the membership and viewership have grown, this thread just recently passed the quarter-million page view mark.

We now have a large number of threads with more than 18,000 page views, and a bunch with over 50,000 page views and a few with over 100,000 page views.

Peter

Peter,

Congrats, to you, Tom Lehmann and all the members that have made the milestone for this thread.  I can see how many people are viewing this thread now.  What is going on with so many guests viewing this thread?

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Thank you.

I don't have any idea why people view the thread. It has always been a popular thread, no doubt because the NY style is the most popular style, at least on this forum. Also, the thread is a "meaty" thread in that it has a lot of good information in it for those who want to make a basic NY style pizza in a home setting, which is why the thread was started in the first place. Popular threads also attract more attention simply because they are popular.

Peter

[tprpicscom]

Pete,

First off the information on this board is incredible and your effort to give complete, accurate answers is amazing, my hat is off to you.
I am embarking on making my first dough this evening and thought that I would make a Lehmann 16" reciepe and divide the dough for two 12" doughs as you mentioned in the preface to the roadmap.   I have some King Arthur bread dough (i don't however have any wheat gluton additive) can you tell me the reciepe you think would be best for me?   I also have a stand mixer and both IDY and ADY.

Thanks Terry

[Pete-zza]

Terry,

Thank you for the compliment.

I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with a Lehmann NY style dough formulation for two 12" pizzas as follows:

King Arthur Bread Flour (100%): Water (62%): IDY (0.40%): Salt (1.75%): Olive Oil (1%): Total (165.15%): Single Ball:

354.7 g  |  12.51 oz | 0.78 lbs 219.92 g  |  7.76 oz | 0.48 lbs 1.42 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.47 tsp | 0.16 tbsp 6.21 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.11 tsp | 0.37 tbsp 3.55 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.79 tsp | 0.26 tbsp 585.79 g | 20.66 oz | 1.29 lbs | TF = 0.09135 292.9 g | 10.33 oz | 0.65 lbs

Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.09; target dough ball weight = 288.6g/10.2 oz; bowl residue compensation = 1.5% (for a stand mixer)

For instructions on the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation, you might want to read the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19503.html#msg19503. Also, there are many other NY style dough formulations on the forum, which you can examine if you'd like at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11860.0.html.

Good luck.

Peter

[mayersob]

I am using lehmann calculation tool dough wgt 12oz -dough balls 5- hydration 60% -IDY .2%-salt 2.8%.I use the cold rise method. My oven heats to 550f I have a 16" stone on the bottom shelf. My question is for a 550F oven and baking stone. what is the best hydration for KA bread flour for hand stretching & tossing?

[Pete-zza]

I am using lehmann calculation tool dough wgt 12oz -dough balls 5- hydration 60% -IDY .2%-salt 2.8%.I use the cold rise method. My oven heats to 550f I have a 16" stone on the bottom shelf. My question is for a 550F oven and baking stone. what is the best hydration for KA bread flour for hand stretching & tossing?

mayersob,

For the King Arthur bread flour, I use a hydration of 62%. You might need more yeast unless it is very warm where you live.

Peter

[sidesw1pe]

Just wanted to say a big thanks to Peter for all of the useful detailed info. 

I've been experimenting with making pizzas for years now, but have only been making my own dough for the past year or so, with average success (average, but still delicious!).  Yesterday I made the dough in this recipe & today the pizzas were crafted.  Well, nothing could have prepared me for the pure awesomeness of this dough!  It was much easier to shape than my previous dough attempts, & the crust turned out absolutely perfect.  I just love the light, crunchy, golden exterior, & the slight "chewiness" of the interior texture.  My Wife was super-impressed too!

[Pete-zza]

sidesw1pe,

You did well with your Lehmann pizza. I'm glad that you and your wife both enjoyed it.

Which particular recipe did you use and what was the pizza size?

Peter

[sidesw1pe]

Actually I went ahead & used the one in the first post, but used the calculator to adjust the quantities slightly for 2x 12" bases.  The calculator is a very handy tool btw - Initially I was a little overwhelmed & bypassed it, but after using it for the first time I reckon it's pretty indispensable.  I've read only so far into this thread, & I see that you've made many variations, so will be sure to try out some more later on (do you have a particular recommendation?).

John

[Pete-zza]

I've read only so far into this thread, & I see that you've made many variations, so will be sure to try out some more later on (do you have a particular recommendation?).

John,

You might check out the Lehmann Roadmap at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1453.0.html and see whether you can map out a series of Lehmann pizzas to try based on the ingredients and equipment you have. Unless you have a lot of experience with natural starters/preferments, I would perhaps avoid those Lehmann versions that call for such starters/preferments.

Peter

[wizarddrummer]

...
The first thing you will need to do is to calculate the weight of dough ball you will need to produce the 14-inch, thin, pizza. This is done using this expression, which has appeared many times at this site:

                W = Pi (i.e., 3.14) x R x R x TF,

where R is the radius of the pizza (in our example, 14/2 = 7 inches) and TF is the thickness factor, having a value of 0.10 for a thin pizza.   So, for the 14-inch pizza, you will need 3.14 x 7 x 7 x 0.10, or 15.386 ounces of dough.

Am I missing something here?
The formula here is accurate with respect to calculating volume, but I am unclear as to how you derive weight.

For example, a disk that is 14" with a thickness factor of .10 that is made from Styrofoam will weigh considerably less than a similar disk made with lead. Where is the x factor? The multiplier that gives you the weight based on the types of ingredients you are using?

Many years ago when I worked in construction I used to calculate the quantity of concrete I would need for a specific job. This is usually measured in cubic yards. I never needed to know the weight (concrete specifications are in the plans and the plans are done by architects that have analyzed the specific tensile strengths and weights), but I am sure that depending on the hydration of the concrete, the amount of aggregate, sand etc. the weight would be different.

So how is it that we can assume that the volume of the formula is what is giving us the necessary weight required?

Or am i missing something very simple like 2+2 = 4.

Thanks
 

[Pete-zza]

wizzarddrummer,

I don't believe that you are missing anything.

The thickness factor system is just a way of extrapolating from one size of pizza to another so that the finished products have essentially the same characteristics. The thickness factor is sometimes called a "density loading factor". I don't know where it originated but I first heard about it years ago from writings by Tom Lehmann, of the American Institute of Baking. In the example you used, the thickness factor is 0.10. That is the value that I often use for the NY "street" style although a value of 0.085 is perhaps closer to what is typical for a NY style. Other types of pizzas typically have other values, as I noted a while back at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12243.msg115759/topicseen.html#msg115759. I suppose that if pizza crusts were made of some other edible substance besides flour, the range of thickness factors would be different. FWIW, I have never seen thickness factor values for gluten-free crusts. But values could be calculated from different gluten-free crust products.

You can read more about how the thickness factor (density loading factor) is used from this article by Tom Lehmann himself: http://www.pmq.com/mag/2004november_december/lehmann.php. The density loading factor concept also works with items like sauce and cheese. Tom Lehmann describes how to use that method for cheese at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com//viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6169&p=38621&hilit=#p38605. He also uses that method for sauce but I believe that it can be made to work for various toppings also. The value of the loading factor method to a pizza operator is that all of his pizzas should have pretty much the same finished characteristics. Sometimes operators will also discover once they apply the density loading factor to all of their pizza sizes that they were using disproportionately large amounts of expensive items like cheese on their various pizzas.

All of the dough calculating tools (at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_tools.html) have the thickness factor concept built into them, although there is also a dough weight option for those who prefer to work with dough ball weights form the outset.

Peter

EDIT (1/25/13): Since the link to the above Lehmann article is no longer operative, see the Wayback Machine link to the same article at http://web.archive.org/web/20110404180542/http://pmq.com/mag/2004november_december/lehmann.php

[pythonic]

Recently, at the "Dough Enhancers" thread, I offered to assist fellow member Lars by developing a formulation for a NY style pizza dough, based on Tom Lehmann's recipe, to allow Lars to make a 9-inch "mini" NY style pizza in his toaster oven, pending resolution of problems that he has been having with his conventional oven.   Lars had concluded that the maximum size pizza that he felt could be made in his toaster oven was 9 inches, and that the maximum temperature he can coax out of his toaster oven is around 450 degrees F.  Lars had also informed us that he had the following specific ingredients available to him: bread flour, vital wheat gluten (VWG), and instant dry yeast (IDY).  Based on these inputs, I calculated that Lars would need a dough ball weight of about 6.35 oz. (3.14 x 4.5 x 4.5 x 0.10 = 6.35 oz.)   For the formulation, I decided to use a hydration percentage of about 63%, with the objective of achieving a chewy yet open and airy crust.  The resulting formulation for Lars' toaster oven "mini" NY style pizza came out as follows:

Bread flour (100%), 3.85 oz. (about 7/8 c.)--I used the KA brand
Water (63%), 2.45 oz. (a bit over 1/3 c.)
Salt (1.75%), 0.07 oz. (about 1/3 t.)
Oil (1%), 0.04 oz. (about 1/4 t.)--I used light olive oil
IDY (0.25%, 0.10 oz. (a bit less than 1/8 t.)
VWG (about 1 t.)--I used the Arrowhead brand but Red's should work about the same
(Note: for those who choose to use high-gluten flour, such as KASL, the VWG should be omitted)

Since I had decided to make two mini pizzas, one on the 9 1/4" x 10 1/4" x 1/2" pizza stone that came with my toaster oven (DeLonghi Alfredo plus model), and one on a 9-in pizza screen, I doubled the above recipe amounts.  Because of the small amounts of dough involved, I decided to use only hand kneading.  I combined the bread flour, IDY, salt and VWG in a bowl, gradually added the water, and started to mix, initially with a wooden spoon and then by hand.  As I have done with essentially all of the Lehmann NY style doughs I have made, I temperature adjusted the water to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F.  In this case, the water temperature I calculated was around 100 degrees F.  Absent an instant read thermometer, all that one needs to know is that 100-degree F water is warm to the touch.  (It can be achieved by heating the roughly 1/3 c. of water in the microwave oven in a 1-cup size Pyrex glass measuring cup for about 12 seconds).   After the dough came together in the bowl, I divided the dough ball in half and kneaded each dough ball separately until it was smooth and elastic, yet still a bit tacky, about 6-7 minutes.  The finished dough temperature for both dough balls was 80 degrees F.

I then oiled the dough balls lightly with light olive oil, put them into plastic bags, and then into the refrigerator compartment of my refrigerator where they stayed for the next 24 hours.  When I took them out of the refrigerator to make the pizzas, I let them set at room temperature for a little over an hour.  As the dough was warming up, I preheated the pizza stone for my toaster oven at 450 degrees F (I relied on the knob temperature setting) for about 1 hour.  Since I don't have a "mini" peel, I dressed the first pizza on a floured plastic vegetable prep sheet, which served as my "peel" to get the dressed pizza onto the pizza stone.  I baked the pizza (pepperoni with 6-in-1 tomatoes, a 50/50 blend of shredded mozzarella/provolone cheeses, and a bit of fresh basil) for about 11 minutes, or until the rim of the crust turned golden brown and the cheeses were melted, but not burning.    

The second pizza was dressed directly on the 9-inch pizza screen, using the same toppings and amounts as the first pizza.  That pizza was baked at the 450 degree F toaster oven setting for about 11 minutes also, or until the crust had browned and the cheeses were melted.  

The photo below is for the first pizza baked on the pizza stone, and the following photos on succeeding postings are for a slice of the pizza baked on the stone, followed by a photo of the second pizza baked on the screen and a slice of that pizza.

As between the two pizzas, I felt that the pizza baked on the small pizza stone was the better pizza.  The stone appeared to do a better job of distributing the toaster oven heat to the pizza.  The screen was closer to the heating element and required closer monitoring to be sure that the bottom didn't darken excessively before the toppings were done.  As a result, I would recommend to Lars, as well as anyone else attempting a NY style pizza in a toaster oven, to use a pizza stone if possible, or, alternatively, look into getting a couple of unglazed quarry stones and fashioning a baking surface equivalent to a pizza stone (some cutting of the stones may well be necessary).  Otherwise, a 9-inch pizza screen can be used.  

Readers will note that the pepperoni used on the pizzas exhibits the "cup and char" characteristic which is favored by some pizza makers.  For the two pizzas, I used a pepperoni that is made by Ceriello Fine Foods.  I had picked up a stick at the specialty foods section of Grand Central Station while I was in NYC over the Thanksgiving holiday.  The amount of fat rendered by the pepperoni was actually greater than shown in the photos.  I removed some of it before taking the photos. But, for those who like the idea of fat running down their elbows while eating the pizza, then the best course is to leave the fat alone and go at it.  Both pizzas were very good, with a nice, flavorful, chewy, open and airy crust.  I wouldn't have suspected that the mini pizzas were any different than their 16-in brethren but for the smaller pizza slices and a restrained "droop".

So, Lars, this one's for you  .

Peter

Pete,

I've made this recipe many times without the VWG and I love the NY flavor and crispiness but for some reason the end of my crust always comes out flat.  I am looking for a Sbarro type (puffy) crust at the end.   What would cause this to happen?