Author Topic: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza  (Read 473334 times)

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Offline pftaylor

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #180 on: May 28, 2005, 09:13:09 AM »
Pyegal,
Your results are some of the most visually consistent on this board. Your pies look very inviting.
Good job.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #181 on: May 28, 2005, 10:00:22 AM »
Teresa,

I agree with pft.

I see from your peel that there is a lot of room left on it for a bigger pizza. If you'd like me to give you the ingredients (yes, I will provide volume measurements) for a larger size pizza, let me know the size you'd like to try. I know you have been making two pizzas out of your recipes rather than one, but you might want to try making one just to compare. Of course, I'm assuming that your stone can handle the larger size.

Peter

Offline pyegal

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #182 on: May 28, 2005, 11:49:09 AM »
Hmm....pft, is that a compliment? LOL! I'm hoping to improve in both my pizza making and photo taking. But for now, I'll take it as a compliment. However, I do not feel my skills with either approach yours, Pete-za's, Varsano's, or others on this forum.

Pull my feathers and call me a chicken, Pete-za! I'm just scared to make a pie larger than about 12".
Last night I did have some very thin areas (as in you could read thru them) in the center portions of my pizzas. I also had some thicker areas, so I need to work on my consistency. I want to get a 14" screen if I can find the time to get to a restaurant supply house in either Greensboro or Winston Salem. Then I'll tackle stretching the dough out to a larger size.

Both of last night's pizzas were baked for 6.5 minutes at 500 degrees F(gas oven), on the lowest rack setting, cooking the pies directly on my quarry tiles. Lost a few pieces of onion and bell pepper in the transfer. I was pleased to be able to repeat that crust texture that I liked in an earlier version.

pyegal

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #183 on: May 28, 2005, 12:35:29 PM »
pyegal,
Most recently I have been accused of being fulsome with my praise so I decided to seek alternative words to express my enthusiasm for your efforts. Consistency, to me, is a compliment of the first rank in home pizza making. I view the ability to create one great pie as perhaps skill but more than likely luck. Excellence over time is the true test. In order to progress one's skill they would have to be able to pick up where they left off and improve.

As one climbs higher up the pizza mountain the ledges available to rest are smaller and smaller. Improvement is more treacherous. You have demonstrated the tenacity to improve.

That is no small feat. Therefore, kindly count me as a fan of your efforts.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #184 on: May 28, 2005, 10:31:10 PM »
Teresa,

As you know from reading the various posts on this thread, I have posted Lehmann dough recipes for several different size pizzas, from 9 inches all the way up to 18 inches. Theoretically, all the pizzas made from the recipes should produce the same characteristics, with the only differences being the sizes of the pizzas. You could take a dough intended for a 12 inch pizza and stretch it out to 14 or 15 inches, but the finished pizza will not be the same. That is why I offered to give you a recipe for whatever size you want.

As for stretching dough to the larger sizes, that will come with practice. I bought an 18-inch pizza screen today from a local restaurant supply place and intend in due course to make an 18-inch Lehmann dough to use on the new screen. I have never made that size before but I am looking forward to it. The last Lehmann dough I made handled so nicely that I am certain that I will have no problem stretching the dough (designed for the 18-inch size) out to 18 inches.

Peter

Offline pyegal

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #185 on: May 28, 2005, 11:23:55 PM »
Pete-zza,
Perhaps you could calculate for me the dough ingredients to make 2 12-inch pies. That is usually
what I make, but using the dough for one 14-inch pie. Measurements by volume, please, as I have not made the leap to weights.

Pftaylor, your choice of alternative words to praise my humble efforts are just fine with me. Any positive feedback from the experts here I will welcome. I think that consistency is one of the major aims with my weekly pizza trials. I just want to produce a pizza with a crust that suits me, find a mixing technique that will give me the same crust taste and texture each time I make it, and a sauce that I can successfully reproduce each time. The toppings will vary according to what I have on hand, what sounds good at the moment, and what my guests would like, if I'm serving guests.

With helpful advice and encouragement, I feel that I am on my way to achieving my goals!

Thanks to you both,
Teresa (pyegal)

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #186 on: May 29, 2005, 11:09:20 AM »
Teresa,

I have set forth below the formulations for the Lehmann dough recipes you requested. You will note that I have given you a single 12-inch recipe, a double-size recipe to make two 12-inch pizzas, a 14-inch recipe, and, for good measure, a 16-inch recipe, even though you didn't specifically ask for it, should you muster up the courage to try that one (if your oven will permit). For purposes of the recipes, I chose to use a thickness factor (TF) of 0.105. That is a bit more than the standard 0.10 thickness factor for a NY style, but it is one that I myself often use and it may be a bit easier for you to work with until you feel you are able to handle a slightly thinner dough if you think you would like that better. If you'd like, you can also use the matrix that fellow member Crusty created and posted at Reply #107 (on this thread) based on the 0.10 thickness factor and different hydration percents. For your recipes below, I chose 63%, which has pretty much become my personal standard.

Lehmann recipe for one 12-inch pizza
Flour (100%), KASL high-gluten, 7.15 oz. (1 1/2 c. plus 2 T.)
Water (63%), 4.50 oz. (between 1/2 c. and 5/8 c.)
Salt (1.75%), 0.13 oz. (a bit over 5/8 t.)
Oil (1%), 0.07 oz. (a bit less than 1/2 t.)
IDY (0.25%), 0.02 oz. (1/6 t., or about 7 pinches between the thumb and forefinger)
Total dough ball weight = 11.87 oz.
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105

Lehmann recipe for two 12-inch pizzas
Flour (100%), KASL high-gluten, 14.30 oz. (3 c. plus 3 T. plus 1 t.)
Water (63%), 9.01 oz. (1 1/8 c.)
Salt (1.75%), 0.25 oz. (a bit over 1 1/4 t.)
Oil (1%), 0.14 oz. (7/8 t.)
IDY (0.25%), 0.04 oz. (a bit over 1/3 t.)
Total dough ball weight = 23.74 oz.
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105

Lehmann recipe for one 14-inch pizza
Flour (100%), KASL high-gluten, 9.73 oz. (a bit less than 2 1/4 c.)
Water (63%), 6.13 oz. (3/4 c.)
Salt (1.75%), 0.17 oz. (7/8 t.)
Oil (1%), 0.10 oz. (a bit less than 5/8 t.)
IDY (0.25%), 0.02 oz. (a bit less than 1/4 t.)
Total dough ball weight = 16.16 oz.
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105

Lehmann recipe for one 16-inch pizza
Flour (100%), King Arthur high-gluten, 12.65 oz. (2 3/4 plus 3 T.)
Water (63%), 7.95 oz., (1 c.)
Salt (1.75%), 0.20 oz., (a bit over 1 t.)
Oil (1%), 0.13 oz., (a bit over 3/4 t.)
IDY (0.25%), 0.03 oz., (about 1/3 t.)
Total dough ball weight: 21.10 oz.
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105

Good luck.

Peter






« Last Edit: May 29, 2005, 12:38:34 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline tjacks88

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #187 on: May 29, 2005, 02:45:47 PM »
Peter,

Are your measurments based on oz for solids and fl oz for liquids? I am starting to use a digital scale so I want to make sure that I am using the right measurements.

Also, if you want to make more than one pizza based on any of the ingredients listed, is it as simple as just multiplying the measurements by how many pizzas you want to make? Since I make anywhere from one to several pizzas at a time depending on the number of guests, I'm wondering if it woud be better to approach this from making the dough in one mixer batch then dividing it into balls based upon weight.

Thanks

Tom

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #188 on: May 29, 2005, 03:28:38 PM »
Tom,

In just about all my recipes I use weight measurements for everything, including the water. I also try to give volume equivalents for those who do not have scales, even though this is not an entirely accurate process. So, in your case, with a scale, you should weigh the heavier ingredients like flour and water. Unless you have a special scale that can weigh very small quantities of things, like salt, sugar, oil and yeast, you will have to rely on standard conversion data for converting from weights to volumes, like teaspoons and tablespoons, which are pretty much universally used by home bakers. An example of a special scale that can weigh very small amounts of ingredients is the Frieling Accu Balance digital scale like the one that fellow member pftaylor has and uses. I believe it measures down to 0.1 gram and 0.005 ounce.

To make multiple dough balls, it is as simple as you say. Just multiply the ingredients for a single size dough ball by the number of pizzas you want. I usually give the single pizza size for those who only want to make a single pizza of a given size. If you plan to make several pizzas at about the same time, then it is best to make all the dough at once if your machine can handle it. For most machines, and especially for stand mixers (or an Electrolux DLX) that can handle larger dough batches than a food processor, this is the most efficient way to do it. You can decide whether you want to divide and scale the large dough mass into several individual dough balls before refrigerating (for a retarded Lehmann dough) or you can refrigerate the large dough ball in one piece and divide and scale it later after the dough ball comes out of the refrigerator. I prefer the former approach if you can do it space-wise in your refrigerator. I believe it also minimizes the handling of the dough and degassing from the additional handling.

You will notice in the two 12-inch recipes that I devised for pyegal the second recipe is not exactly double the first recipe. That's simply because of the numbers involved and rounding factors and using approximations. If I were to make, say, five dough balls, the approach I would take would be to multiply the single dough ball weight by five and then use the baker's percents to determine the individual quantities. It's a bit more precise to do it this way, and it is most likely that the differences will be minimal in a practical sense. But I am just a creature of habit and always look for the most precise way of doing things. It also provides a good audit trail if I have to revisit the recipes for any reason.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 29, 2005, 03:34:13 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline SunDragon

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #189 on: June 03, 2005, 09:26:58 PM »
Hello, newbie here.

Wow, alot of information in this thread so much so that im a little lost.  Theres been so many variations that im not sure which one I should use. So, with that last post with the breakdowns for different size pizzas, I was wondering what sort of proccess I should use to mix up the dough with my stand mixer? A 12 incher is about as big as I can make right now.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #190 on: June 03, 2005, 10:17:00 PM »
SunDragon,

Welcome to the forum. As a "newbie", you are wise to start with a simple and basic recipe. There will be plenty of time to move on to more esoteric versions. If you can master a basic recipe, you won't be a "newbie" for long.

In due course, the basic Lehmann dough recipe should appear on the recipe page of the forum, along with a general set of instructions. For now, you may want to use the instructions presented below. Unfortunately, there is no perfect set of instructions that will work identically for everyone. There are too many variables. However, the following instructions are fairly generic and should get you going in the right direction. If you have any questions feel free to ask. My door is always open :).

1.In a mixing bowl of a stand mixer fitted with a dough hook, add the salt to the water and stir or whisk until the salt is dissolved.

2.Combine the flour and yeast (IDY) and gradually add to the mixing bowl, at "Stir" or low speed. If necessary, use a spatula to scrape down the sides of the bowl so that the flour is directed into the path of the dough hook and forms a rough dough ball.

3. When the bulk of the flour has been taken up into the dough ball, about 2 minutes, add the oil and continue to knead, at low speed, for about another 2 minutes. Increase the mixer speed to medium and continue kneading for an additional 5-6 minutes. Remove the dough from the mixing bowl and examine it. It should be smooth, soft and elastic without any tears on the outer surface. It should also be tacky rather than wet or dry. If these conditions are not met, return the dough to the mixer bowl and adjust by adding a bit more water or flour, as appropriate, and knead for about a minute more, or until the dough achieves the desired characteristics. (You will get better with this set of procedures with experience, so don't be afraid to stop the mixer to reorient the dough if it rides high on the hook or to otherwise play around with the dough to help it along. Most home mixers are not the most effective kneading machines.)

4. When the dough is ready, remove it from the bowl and knead by hand for about 30 seconds to shape the dough into a smooth round ball. The dough ball should weigh about 12 oz. and have an internal temperature of 80-85 degrees F (which is considered optimum for dough fermentation). Wipe the dough ball with a small amount of oil and place in a bowl or other suitable container. (You can use a bowl, a metal container or even a plastic storage bag or empty bread bag)

5. Cover the dough container and place in the refrigerator, preferably for a period of 24-48 hours. If the dough is to be used beyond 48 hours, it is advisable to add a small amount of sugar (about 1/2 t.) to the water of the recipe at the same time the salt is added. This will help feed the yeast to extend the dough's useful life.

6. When the dough is to be used, remove it from the refrigerator, place it on a work surface, lightly dust with a bit of bench flour, and cover with a sheet of plastic wrap. Let the dough warm up at room temperature for about 1 to 2 hours, or until the dough achieves an internal temperature of around 60-65 degrees F. (The dough will reach the desired temperature faster in the summer than in the winter.)

7. About an hour before making the pizza, place the pizza stone (or tiles) on the lowest oven rack position and preheat to 500-550 degrees F for at least one hour. 

8. Shape the dough into a 12-inch round and place on a pizza peel lightly dusted with flour, corn meal or semolina. (Alternatively, the dough round can be placed on a well-seasoned 12-inch or larger pizza screen.)

9. Dress the pizza round with pizza sauce, cheeses (sliced or shredded) and any other desired toppings (but remember that too many toppings will alter the bake time and the top and bottom of the pizza may not finish baking at the same time).

10. Bake the pizza for about 5-6 minutes, or until the crust is nicely browned and the cheeses are bubbling. Remove from the oven and let cool for a few minutes before slicing and serving.

You might also want to take a look at Reply #1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1000.msg8931.html#msg8931. I attempted at that post to explain how to minimize problems with doughs. That post expands upon many of the points covered above and may be helpful to you.

Good luck.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 25, 2005, 09:11:16 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #191 on: June 05, 2005, 11:00:39 AM »
All,
Do not underestimate the power of the force which lies deep within Pete-zza. He has the ability to play Jedi mind tricks with any recipe. The results are simply spectacular.

One would do well to follow the teaching of such a wise pizza master.
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Offline tjacks88

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #192 on: June 14, 2005, 12:26:47 AM »
I have been working with Pete-zzas' version of Tom Lehmann's recipes and have been really happy with the results. I am looking for a thin crust pretty much out to the edge, simliar to what I experienced while growing up in New Jersey. I live in Colorado at about 5000', so lower humidity and rise times differ somewhat, but my quest for home pizzamaking has gone on for the past 7 years while at this altitude, so this is all I know right now, and a lower altitude might actually be more difficult for me since this is what I am used to. The low humidity seems to be the most challenging and sometimes variable part for me, in all of my cooking with flour.

Here is what I did:

KASL 100%

Offline tjacks88

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #193 on: June 14, 2005, 12:47:45 AM »
Bummer - too large of a file size from the pictures dumped my message, here we go again.

I used Peter's recipe for 63% hydration for 16" pie but divided it into 2 balls that made 2 13" thin pies. I used escalon and polly-o mozz.

30.5 hours in the fridge in metal covered trays. Oven was 465 and cooked each for 8 minutes.


Offline scott r

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #194 on: June 19, 2005, 09:14:05 PM »
This lehmann pie turned out great, an 800 degree quick bake, saputo gold mozzarella and locotelli romano cheese, no autolyse or sugar.  I just wanted to post some high temp pics for this thread.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2005, 11:48:47 PM by scott r »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #195 on: June 19, 2005, 09:31:25 PM »
scott,

That is quite an impressive pizza. Thanks for posting the photos.

Can you provide some additional details, like which particular Lehmann dough recipe you used, whether the dough was a same-day room-temperature fermented dough (as opposed to a refrigerated one), the size of the pizza you made, the texture of the crust and rim, and the type of sauce you used? I don't recall that anyone has used the Lehmann dough at such a high bake temperature. It makes me wonder what would happen if one tried to do the same thing in a wood-fired oven.

Peter

Offline scott r

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #196 on: June 20, 2005, 12:09:54 AM »
Peter, I used your basic recipe from the above post, and ended up with 6 500 gram dough balls. I was making roughly 15 inch pies.

Flour KASL high-gluten, Grocery store bottled water 63%, Sicilian non iodized sea salt 1.75%, Raineri unfiltered olive oil 1%, SAF brand IDY 0.25%

This pie was a day 4 retarded dough topped with a combo of 6in1's and Famoso san marzanos.  The texture of the pie was amazing, crisp on the outside, melt in your mouth on the inside. I had used an autolyse the last time I made this dough and I thought it was a little too airy for a ny style.  I know that classic NY street pizza is probably not baked above 600 degrees, but I do really like what the higher temp brings to the table as far as taste and texture goes.  I decided to skip the autolyse this time and I did not really notice much of a difference in the end.  Still the same problem, a little too much spring for my taste.  I really feel guilty calling this a problem, as everyone that tasted these pizzas said that they were the best that I have ever made.  It is funny, I have totally raised my standards.  Where before I was just struggling to make a pie that tasted like it came from a real pizzeria, now I am shooting for making a pie that is the best I have ever tasted anywhere.  So far I think my favorite all time pizza is one that I had at Grimaldi's, but this might change next week.  I have a chance to work in NY for the whole week, and I plan to try a different elite pizzeria every day.  I will also stop at pepe's on the way down, and sally's on the way back. I can't wait to see how mine are really stacking up against the big guys.  It has been a few months since I have been there, so I know my memory could be playing tricks on me.

Here is another pic from a pie with different cheese and sauce, but the same dough at day 3.  This was for a friend who likes extra cheese

Also, one tip for anyone else using the self clean cycle.  I have found my best results come when I let my oven get up to temp (700-850), then I put the stone in for just a few minutes.  It is a very thin stone made by Artstone, and takes about the same amount of time to reach its optimum temp (600-750) as it takes me to shape and dress my pizza skin.  Obviously this will not work if you are making more than one pie, but usually for me one is all I need.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2005, 12:24:46 AM by scott r »

Offline jeancarlo

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #197 on: June 26, 2005, 12:26:51 PM »
I wish I could make this recipe Pete-zza but I can't find none of the flours mentioned. Maybe if you can convert the recipe using all-purpose flour, then I would be able to make it.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #198 on: June 26, 2005, 02:58:07 PM »
jeancarlo,

I forgot for a moment that you are in Mexico. Sometimes when I go to Mexico I bring high-gluten and bread flour with me. I do this since I know from having looked in Sam's, Wal-Mart's and some of the local food stores--and also from a nice talk I had with a local baker--that the only flour available in most parts of Mexico to use for pizza is a local version of what we call all-purpose flour. As I indicated on another post on this thread, my daughter-in-law made pizza dough using that flour because she didn't want to bring other flours to Mexico just to make pizza. So I came up with a Lehmann NY style dough recipe for her to use with the local flour.

I'm sure I can come up with a Lehmann NY style dough recipe for you to try out in Mexico using all-purpose flour. If you want to give me the dough batch size, the type of yeast you are using, and a preferred hydration level (if you have one), and the size of pizza you want to make, then I am certain I can come up with a formulation for you to try out. If you'd like, I can give you a recipe for just a single pizza of any size you'd like, so you can make just one to play around with. All-purpose flour isn't that much different from a weight standpoint from high-gluten flour. The resultant pizza crust will be different, but it will still be enjoyable. I know from a prior post that you have a Lincoln oven and that you can make a hand-tossed pizza, which is what the Lehmann dough is, so it looks like you may be in a position to try out the Lehmann recipe. I'll leave it up to you.

Peter


Offline scott r

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #199 on: July 27, 2005, 12:04:46 AM »
same recipe as above, but with no oil.  This pie was very soft and moist on the inside.  The crust texture and flavor was very similar to what I had in NY at the coal oven joints.