Author Topic: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza  (Read 499576 times)

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piroshok

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #220 on: August 28, 2005, 10:22:41 AM »
OzPizza Would you mind giving me your flour bag tech info or descriptions please? such as numbers thanks


Offline OzPizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #221 on: August 29, 2005, 05:19:46 AM »
OzPizza Would you mind giving me your flour bag tech info or descriptions please? such as numbers thanks


Piroshok, As I mentioned on in the thread, the Ben Furney Maxi-Pro was recommended to me by the bloke at Rice Distributors, Sydney. The only other reference to it is in the Sydney Morning Herald article about bread flour that I linked in that other thread we conversed in a little while ago. In that article it's said to be 14% protein, but you know how reliable sources like that are. I would go direct to Ben Furney on it or if you can't speak to Aziz at Rice Distributors in Sydney, he may have some specifics or can no doubt obtain them for you. So far after something like 12 Lehmann pizzas, my results keep getting better each time. I rate them as the best of any I've made since I first started experimenting 10 years ago.

Cheers,

Andrew
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piroshok

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #222 on: August 29, 2005, 05:36:09 AM »
Thanks Andrew I have received some tech info from them though I wanted to cross check since their specs do not match what they claim.
Nevermind I have found another miller in NSW Manildra Mills theirs seems to be higher than Burney by .25% though I said I'm forced to use additivies if the protein levels fall below 13% so it is critical for me to find the right mix otherwise I am forced to spend money on imported additives.
Anyway Manildra will drop couple of consistent 13.3-5% protein level bags of 25 kg no charge of course in a day or two they said thatcould go up to 14.5% but not reliable as discussed before there is a tolerance band where in high protein mixers allow themselves an error margin  so they aim for 12.5 to 13.3 and anything above it is a bonus.
A special mix is something else but you need to negotiate with them a bulk supply I am not certain of the quantities but rest assure it is beyond any pizzeria consumption rate even for overseas standards.
My project projected consumption is about 500 to 700 25kg bags for the first month.   
Will test it soon I may make some pizza but prefer the ones made in trays or teglia

cheers!

Ricardo
« Last Edit: August 29, 2005, 05:43:30 AM by piroshok »

Offline OzPizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #223 on: August 30, 2005, 04:22:32 AM »
Interesting Ricardo. Hopefully, next time I can speak to this Aziz bloke more in depth about his knowledge of protein levels beyond what he told me on the phone about Ben Furney being stronger than AFM's product. At least on the positive side, even if the Maxi-Pro is at least a little above 13%, I'm at least using something better than the previous best deli bought Italian 12.6%. Figures aside, the resulting dough to me seems to have the attributes I'm expecting, the hydration levels seem to match the Lehmann recipe very closely and the final resulting pizza comes across as authentically as I think I can ask for, in terms of crust characteristics and flavour...

Keep us posted on your project. By the sound of you are trying to get a NY Pizzeria experience going in Melbourne. I wish I had time to investigate putting together a NY style restaurant in Sydney as I believe I could clean up there with such a product.
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Offline JF_Aidan_Pryde

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #224 on: September 06, 2005, 01:31:10 AM »
Oz,
I've looked in google, the yellow pages, white pages but I can't seem to find "Rice Distributors".
Would it be possible for you to post their contact details here? A phone number will do.
Thanks!

Offline OzPizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #225 on: September 06, 2005, 01:52:36 AM »
Oz,
I've looked in google, the yellow pages, white pages but I can't seem to find "Rice Distributors".
Would it be possible for you to post their contact details here? A phone number will do.
Thanks!

That's odd mate, as I don't keep their number on hand, I just Yellowpages.com searched them and their details came straight up: http://www.yellowpages.com.au/search/postSearchEntry.do?businessType=&businessName=rice+distributors&locationClue=NSW. If you enquire about flour, they will probably put you through to a guy named Aziz (don't know if thats how he spells it), who is based in the suburbs, Kirawee I think. Sorry for sounding sketchy, but my gf got the flour for me because it's on her way home.

Cheers!
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Offline JF_Aidan_Pryde

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #226 on: September 06, 2005, 09:17:58 PM »
Hi Oz,
Thanks for that. I just talked to Aziz  but I think he got the wrong impression -- the next thing you know he was trying to sell me tomato sauce, capcicums, yeast and what not. He gave me his address which is in Miranda but was relunctant to give me the address of his distributor in Kirrawee, thinking I'll go back to them instead of him in the future.

So I'm kinda stuck. Would you have the Kirrawee outlet address handy? I managed to confirm the protein content btw: 13.7%. Not bad at all. :)

Offline OzPizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #227 on: September 06, 2005, 10:23:09 PM »
Hi Oz,
Thanks for that. I just talked to Aziz but I think he got the wrong impression -- the next thing you know he was trying to sell me tomato sauce, capcicums, yeast and what not. He gave me his address which is in Miranda but was relunctant to give me the address of his distributor in Kirrawee, thinking I'll go back to them instead of him in the future.

So I'm kinda stuck. Would you have the Kirrawee outlet address handy? I managed to confirm the protein content btw: 13.7%. Not bad at all. :)

I played it kind of cool with Aziz on the phone, as if I was in the business and experimenting with some new recipes. Unfortunately, it was my gf who went there, so I'd have to ask her for the address specifics if she can recall them. What was the place in Miranda out of curiosity? A retailer or something?
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Offline JF_Aidan_Pryde

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #228 on: September 06, 2005, 10:32:07 PM »
I played it kind of cool with Aziz on the phone, as if I was in the business and experimenting with some new recipes. Unfortunately, it was my gf who went there, so I'd have to ask her for the address specifics if she can recall them. What was the place in Miranda out of curiosity? A retailer or something?

Place at Miranda is actually his office.

Offline OzPizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #229 on: September 12, 2005, 03:36:01 AM »
I made some more Lehmann dough last night, after a brief flirtation with Randy's American, which wasn't to my taste (a bit sweet to me).

It came off the hook at an ideal 85F, really good texture, on exact weight, and went into the fridge shortly after.

It occurred to me today, after reading much from Pete and the like about domestic fridges not really getting cold enough a lot of the time, to measure my own GE side by side fridge. I had the feeling that mine is pretty cold as early in the piece I learned the hard way when I used to run it a 7 (3/4 on the dial) and a lot of things would freeze. So I measured it today with my non-contact IR thermometer and got a reading of 38-39F, just about 6 degrees off freezing (one packet drink next to the top shelf vent was actually part frozen when I touched it). The dough itself also register 38F in the container. While I was there I also checked the freezer, which also seems to be quite efficient, (I  run it below 1) It registered 14F. I could easily drop the temp in it since theres a lot left on the dial. Mind you my last frozen results were superb anyway. I can't remember how these temps compare exactly but I seem to remember the average fridge temp reported being higher.
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Offline OzPizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #230 on: September 14, 2005, 09:58:03 PM »
I ended up going with a 48hr ferm again this time. Yet again results were very good. The dough seems like it had just the right amount of extensibility and was pretty easy to shape. I also have begun rotating my pizza in the last minutes of cooking to even out the browning of the crust.

After just over 5 mins at 572F this is how it turned out:

Nicely browned with a slight char:
(http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/2055/dsc0014large2ru.jpg)

Crust had nice texture:
(http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/9353/dsc0015large3xl.jpg)

underneath:
(http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/3597/dsc0016large2xu.jpg)
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Offline foster444

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #231 on: September 15, 2005, 06:42:50 AM »
That's overcooked for a real NY style pie.  That is, you wouldn't see such a dark pie in a NY shop.

Doesn't mean you don't like it that way.  Just mentioned it in case you wanted a point of reference.

Bob

Offline OzPizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #232 on: September 15, 2005, 09:32:49 PM »
That's overcooked for a real NY style pie. That is, you wouldn't see such a dark pie in a NY shop.

Doesn't mean you don't like it that way. Just mentioned it in case you wanted a point of reference.

Bob

That was my second pie and probably the darkest I've ever gotten one. It's all part of the experimenting.

Here's the first one I cooked much lighter:
(http://img400.imageshack.us/img400/6894/dsc0010large8vj.jpg)
« Last Edit: September 15, 2005, 09:34:44 PM by OzPizza »
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Offline foster444

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #233 on: September 15, 2005, 11:15:44 PM »
Again, this is not a criticism.  You may not have much experience with a New York type of pizza, being from down under.
I'm sure I wouldn't know what an Aussie pie is supposed to look like.

Even on your second pic which is not as well done as the other, those brown patches of cheese between the pepperoni slices show, to my eye, overcooking.  Those browned over cheese areas won't stretch and don't offer the right sensual experience one gets from the perfectly baked pie.  But it's a much better looking pie than the darker one.  It might have come out of the oven 30 seconds sooner.

When the cheese is all nice and melted and bubbly, and JUST looking like it wants to start browning over...it's done.  The pictures of the slice at the top of these pages, the logo, look perfect.  You don't see those browned patches; perhaps a few individual small browned peaks  Use those pics as a model, again, if you're trying to cook your pie "in style."

On the pic of the very dark pizza, if you see the little bits of non-browned cheese just surrounding the pepperonis...if the whole pie looked like that, it'd be a dead ringer for a pizza from a shop in Brooklyn.  On the pic of the lighter pie, if you look just to the "southeast" of the pepperoni closest to the camera.  It's got one little island of brown but just south of that island is pizza heaven.

If you scroll from one pie pic to the other and back, you get a real sense of why that first dark pie shouted out to me, "overcooked!"

Please don't take this as criticism. I have no doubt that your pie tastes as great as it looks.

Bob

Offline scott r

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #234 on: September 16, 2005, 12:46:38 AM »
I just wanted to add that I have found certain brands of cheese that brown much easier than other brands.  As much as I love Poly-o, I just did a browning shootout of some of my favorites, and it lost.  On the same test pie it was mostly browned over while the section I had topped with Grande stayed white.  For me this is an important quality, because I prefer the more typical NY style of no browning.  Some people I know that grew up eating other styles can't even enjoy a pizza if it doesn't have char on top!

Offline OzPizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #235 on: September 16, 2005, 01:56:47 AM »
Interesting cheese brands and browning should be mentioned. I just picked up some new mozzarellas here. They are from the most popularly used brand(by pizzerias) here called 'Caboolture'produced by the biggest Dairy producer in this country, Dairy Farmers Inc. Apparently they export quite a lot of this Mozz overseas too, Asia and ME mainly though. I got some part-skim, as well as whole milk to try tonight. Subsequently, today I stumbled up an excellent article in the PMQ Aus/NZ edition all about our mozzarellas and featuring the brand I just purchased. It clears spells out the differences with browning, texture, flavour, etc. between part-skim and whole milk mozz. Also, the article mentions we here in Oz consume 133 million pizza per annum or roughly seven person, which is not bad per capita. Who says there's no room for NY style here  ;D

http://www.pmq.com.au/mag/2003september/cheese.html
« Last Edit: September 16, 2005, 02:17:52 AM by OzPizza »
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Offline foster444

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #236 on: September 16, 2005, 06:39:25 AM »
Ozzie:

If you can make a real NY pizza in Australia, the world will beat a path to your door.

Bob

Offline foster444

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #237 on: September 16, 2005, 06:50:44 AM »
If I can figure out how to paste this, it just happens that we got a pizza from our local pizzeria tonight.  It's decent pizza, nothing special.  But it looks like pretty typical pizza  that you would get in the New York area.  It's cold so it looks kind of dead.  But I wanted you to see the doneness of a typical NY pie.  Seeing as you want to bring real NY pizza to Australia, an admirable goal!, I hope this helps.

Bob


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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #238 on: September 16, 2005, 12:51:12 PM »
Bob,

In looking at Andrew's (OzPizza) photos and your recent photo as well, it occurs to me that, in addition to trying to get the best flours, Andrew may not have the best cheeses to work with either. That has always been a problem with me in my Lehmann pizzas. The NYC area has an abundance of the best mozzarella cheeses, including Grande in many places. They are among the best in the country. Where I live outside of Dallas, I can get some wonderful locally-made fresh mozzarella cheese (at close to $14 a pound for the best) and I can get imported and domestic buffalo mozzarella cheeses, but the only whole-milk processed mozzarella cheese I can find is a WalMart brand. This is after looking at the cheese section of every supermarket or specialty food store I go into. I have even been experimenting with Mexican "pizza" cheeses, looking for something with the right melting and browning characteristics for a NY style. I had been hoping to find something locally that will meet my requirements, whether of the whole-milk or part-skim variety. Other than bringing back better cheeses from visits to other parts of the country, as I have been doing, the logical remaining option is to find someone locally who will sell me some of their good cheeses or otherwise order a Grande or other high quality cheese from a PennMac or elsewhere and have it shipped to Texas.

I admire Andrew's tenacity and persistence in trying to perfect his NY style pizzas in the face of long odds. I can tell from his passion that he will continue the quest.

Peter

Offline foster444

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #239 on: September 16, 2005, 05:53:02 PM »
Peter, I think you are quite right.

I'm sure it's for a myriad of reasons that NY pizza is found in NY, that Bass Pale Ale is found in Burton on Trent, that San Francisco Sourdough bread is found in SF, etc..

I noted that Oz mentioned low moisture mozzerella and that can contribute to the browning outcome as well, I would imagine.

The only thing is, what got me started on this thread was his picture of what I thought was an obviously overdone pizza.  And the point I was making was that Oz may not have a model on which to gauge his results in striving for a NY pie.

Just the concept of a NY pie can be nebulous.  John's Pizza on Bleeker St. is a NY pie and is certainly not a stereotyped specimen of a "NY pie." 

I can say without reservation that I am a fan and a booster of Ozzie in trying to make the real thing down under.  A good NY pie (or NY bagel for that matter) anywhere is bound to be a hit. AND for any expatriate New Yorkers down under, to find a REAL NY pie would surely bring tears of joy.

Bob


 

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