Author Topic: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza  (Read 562601 times)

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Offline OzPizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #225 on: September 06, 2005, 01:52:36 AM »
Oz,
I've looked in google, the yellow pages, white pages but I can't seem to find "Rice Distributors".
Would it be possible for you to post their contact details here? A phone number will do.
Thanks!

That's odd mate, as I don't keep their number on hand, I just Yellowpages.com searched them and their details came straight up: http://www.yellowpages.com.au/search/postSearchEntry.do?businessType=&businessName=rice+distributors&locationClue=NSW. If you enquire about flour, they will probably put you through to a guy named Aziz (don't know if thats how he spells it), who is based in the suburbs, Kirawee I think. Sorry for sounding sketchy, but my gf got the flour for me because it's on her way home.

Cheers!
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Offline JF_Aidan_Pryde

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #226 on: September 06, 2005, 09:17:58 PM »
Hi Oz,
Thanks for that. I just talked to Aziz  but I think he got the wrong impression -- the next thing you know he was trying to sell me tomato sauce, capcicums, yeast and what not. He gave me his address which is in Miranda but was relunctant to give me the address of his distributor in Kirrawee, thinking I'll go back to them instead of him in the future.

So I'm kinda stuck. Would you have the Kirrawee outlet address handy? I managed to confirm the protein content btw: 13.7%. Not bad at all. :)

Offline OzPizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #227 on: September 06, 2005, 10:23:09 PM »
Hi Oz,
Thanks for that. I just talked to Aziz but I think he got the wrong impression -- the next thing you know he was trying to sell me tomato sauce, capcicums, yeast and what not. He gave me his address which is in Miranda but was relunctant to give me the address of his distributor in Kirrawee, thinking I'll go back to them instead of him in the future.

So I'm kinda stuck. Would you have the Kirrawee outlet address handy? I managed to confirm the protein content btw: 13.7%. Not bad at all. :)

I played it kind of cool with Aziz on the phone, as if I was in the business and experimenting with some new recipes. Unfortunately, it was my gf who went there, so I'd have to ask her for the address specifics if she can recall them. What was the place in Miranda out of curiosity? A retailer or something?
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Offline JF_Aidan_Pryde

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #228 on: September 06, 2005, 10:32:07 PM »
I played it kind of cool with Aziz on the phone, as if I was in the business and experimenting with some new recipes. Unfortunately, it was my gf who went there, so I'd have to ask her for the address specifics if she can recall them. What was the place in Miranda out of curiosity? A retailer or something?

Place at Miranda is actually his office.

Offline OzPizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #229 on: September 12, 2005, 03:36:01 AM »
I made some more Lehmann dough last night, after a brief flirtation with Randy's American, which wasn't to my taste (a bit sweet to me).

It came off the hook at an ideal 85F, really good texture, on exact weight, and went into the fridge shortly after.

It occurred to me today, after reading much from Pete and the like about domestic fridges not really getting cold enough a lot of the time, to measure my own GE side by side fridge. I had the feeling that mine is pretty cold as early in the piece I learned the hard way when I used to run it a 7 (3/4 on the dial) and a lot of things would freeze. So I measured it today with my non-contact IR thermometer and got a reading of 38-39F, just about 6 degrees off freezing (one packet drink next to the top shelf vent was actually part frozen when I touched it). The dough itself also register 38F in the container. While I was there I also checked the freezer, which also seems to be quite efficient, (I  run it below 1) It registered 14F. I could easily drop the temp in it since theres a lot left on the dial. Mind you my last frozen results were superb anyway. I can't remember how these temps compare exactly but I seem to remember the average fridge temp reported being higher.
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Offline OzPizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #230 on: September 14, 2005, 09:58:03 PM »
I ended up going with a 48hr ferm again this time. Yet again results were very good. The dough seems like it had just the right amount of extensibility and was pretty easy to shape. I also have begun rotating my pizza in the last minutes of cooking to even out the browning of the crust.

After just over 5 mins at 572F this is how it turned out:

Nicely browned with a slight char:
(http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/2055/dsc0014large2ru.jpg)

Crust had nice texture:
(http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/9353/dsc0015large3xl.jpg)

underneath:
(http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/3597/dsc0016large2xu.jpg)
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Offline foster444

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #231 on: September 15, 2005, 06:42:50 AM »
That's overcooked for a real NY style pie.  That is, you wouldn't see such a dark pie in a NY shop.

Doesn't mean you don't like it that way.  Just mentioned it in case you wanted a point of reference.

Bob

Offline OzPizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #232 on: September 15, 2005, 09:32:49 PM »
That's overcooked for a real NY style pie. That is, you wouldn't see such a dark pie in a NY shop.

Doesn't mean you don't like it that way. Just mentioned it in case you wanted a point of reference.

Bob

That was my second pie and probably the darkest I've ever gotten one. It's all part of the experimenting.

Here's the first one I cooked much lighter:
(http://img400.imageshack.us/img400/6894/dsc0010large8vj.jpg)
« Last Edit: September 15, 2005, 09:34:44 PM by OzPizza »
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Offline foster444

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #233 on: September 15, 2005, 11:15:44 PM »
Again, this is not a criticism.  You may not have much experience with a New York type of pizza, being from down under.
I'm sure I wouldn't know what an Aussie pie is supposed to look like.

Even on your second pic which is not as well done as the other, those brown patches of cheese between the pepperoni slices show, to my eye, overcooking.  Those browned over cheese areas won't stretch and don't offer the right sensual experience one gets from the perfectly baked pie.  But it's a much better looking pie than the darker one.  It might have come out of the oven 30 seconds sooner.

When the cheese is all nice and melted and bubbly, and JUST looking like it wants to start browning over...it's done.  The pictures of the slice at the top of these pages, the logo, look perfect.  You don't see those browned patches; perhaps a few individual small browned peaks  Use those pics as a model, again, if you're trying to cook your pie "in style."

On the pic of the very dark pizza, if you see the little bits of non-browned cheese just surrounding the pepperonis...if the whole pie looked like that, it'd be a dead ringer for a pizza from a shop in Brooklyn.  On the pic of the lighter pie, if you look just to the "southeast" of the pepperoni closest to the camera.  It's got one little island of brown but just south of that island is pizza heaven.

If you scroll from one pie pic to the other and back, you get a real sense of why that first dark pie shouted out to me, "overcooked!"

Please don't take this as criticism. I have no doubt that your pie tastes as great as it looks.

Bob


Offline scott r

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #234 on: September 16, 2005, 12:46:38 AM »
I just wanted to add that I have found certain brands of cheese that brown much easier than other brands.  As much as I love Poly-o, I just did a browning shootout of some of my favorites, and it lost.  On the same test pie it was mostly browned over while the section I had topped with Grande stayed white.  For me this is an important quality, because I prefer the more typical NY style of no browning.  Some people I know that grew up eating other styles can't even enjoy a pizza if it doesn't have char on top!

Offline OzPizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #235 on: September 16, 2005, 01:56:47 AM »
Interesting cheese brands and browning should be mentioned. I just picked up some new mozzarellas here. They are from the most popularly used brand(by pizzerias) here called 'Caboolture'produced by the biggest Dairy producer in this country, Dairy Farmers Inc. Apparently they export quite a lot of this Mozz overseas too, Asia and ME mainly though. I got some part-skim, as well as whole milk to try tonight. Subsequently, today I stumbled up an excellent article in the PMQ Aus/NZ edition all about our mozzarellas and featuring the brand I just purchased. It clears spells out the differences with browning, texture, flavour, etc. between part-skim and whole milk mozz. Also, the article mentions we here in Oz consume 133 million pizza per annum or roughly seven person, which is not bad per capita. Who says there's no room for NY style here  ;D

http://www.pmq.com.au/mag/2003september/cheese.html
« Last Edit: September 16, 2005, 02:17:52 AM by OzPizza »
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Offline foster444

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #236 on: September 16, 2005, 06:39:25 AM »
Ozzie:

If you can make a real NY pizza in Australia, the world will beat a path to your door.

Bob

Offline foster444

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #237 on: September 16, 2005, 06:50:44 AM »
If I can figure out how to paste this, it just happens that we got a pizza from our local pizzeria tonight.  It's decent pizza, nothing special.  But it looks like pretty typical pizza  that you would get in the New York area.  It's cold so it looks kind of dead.  But I wanted you to see the doneness of a typical NY pie.  Seeing as you want to bring real NY pizza to Australia, an admirable goal!, I hope this helps.

Bob


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #238 on: September 16, 2005, 12:51:12 PM »
Bob,

In looking at Andrew's (OzPizza) photos and your recent photo as well, it occurs to me that, in addition to trying to get the best flours, Andrew may not have the best cheeses to work with either. That has always been a problem with me in my Lehmann pizzas. The NYC area has an abundance of the best mozzarella cheeses, including Grande in many places. They are among the best in the country. Where I live outside of Dallas, I can get some wonderful locally-made fresh mozzarella cheese (at close to $14 a pound for the best) and I can get imported and domestic buffalo mozzarella cheeses, but the only whole-milk processed mozzarella cheese I can find is a WalMart brand. This is after looking at the cheese section of every supermarket or specialty food store I go into. I have even been experimenting with Mexican "pizza" cheeses, looking for something with the right melting and browning characteristics for a NY style. I had been hoping to find something locally that will meet my requirements, whether of the whole-milk or part-skim variety. Other than bringing back better cheeses from visits to other parts of the country, as I have been doing, the logical remaining option is to find someone locally who will sell me some of their good cheeses or otherwise order a Grande or other high quality cheese from a PennMac or elsewhere and have it shipped to Texas.

I admire Andrew's tenacity and persistence in trying to perfect his NY style pizzas in the face of long odds. I can tell from his passion that he will continue the quest.

Peter

Offline foster444

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #239 on: September 16, 2005, 05:53:02 PM »
Peter, I think you are quite right.

I'm sure it's for a myriad of reasons that NY pizza is found in NY, that Bass Pale Ale is found in Burton on Trent, that San Francisco Sourdough bread is found in SF, etc..

I noted that Oz mentioned low moisture mozzerella and that can contribute to the browning outcome as well, I would imagine.

The only thing is, what got me started on this thread was his picture of what I thought was an obviously overdone pizza.  And the point I was making was that Oz may not have a model on which to gauge his results in striving for a NY pie.

Just the concept of a NY pie can be nebulous.  John's Pizza on Bleeker St. is a NY pie and is certainly not a stereotyped specimen of a "NY pie." 

I can say without reservation that I am a fan and a booster of Ozzie in trying to make the real thing down under.  A good NY pie (or NY bagel for that matter) anywhere is bound to be a hit. AND for any expatriate New Yorkers down under, to find a REAL NY pie would surely bring tears of joy.

Bob

Offline foster444

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #240 on: September 16, 2005, 06:06:02 PM »
One other point comes to mind, Pete and Ozzie:

Your pizzas may well be a hell of a lot better than anything you would ever find in NY.  I would think that a real chef would scoff at what you would find in our local pizzerias.  The New York Times often runs recipes for pizzas which bear no resemblance to pizzeria pizza and to one in the know, these would be much more refined cuisine.

The kick for me when I make pizza is to make it as close to the real thing as possible.  I could go down the street and get the real thing for $7.  But to make my own just as well (I'm getting very close) is satisfying.

In my roundabout way, I'm saying that you can make any pizza you want and it's wonderful.  But if you're cooking to a style, just as when you're brewing beer to a style, you are trying to emulate that style to the greatest extent possible.

If you want to  brew an English Pale Ale or an Oktoberfest, you want the result to be within the parameters of that style.

If you want to brew for the hell of it, or to concoct your own creation, the sky's the limit.

I hope I conveyed my point understandably.

You know part of it too, Pete, not to sound too chauvinistic, is that you can get pretty much anything here in NY in terms of ingredients.  It's easy to take for granted and not realize how hard things can be to find elsewhere.

I remember how hard it was to get a good pickle when I lived in Buffalo!  And pastrami?  Fuggedaboudit!

Bob

Offline foster444

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #241 on: September 16, 2005, 06:12:41 PM »
I once got a couple of slices in Toronto.

Yeccchhh!!!!

I think that was the first time I realized that there such a thing as "NY pizza."

(Sorry Toronto; great city, lousy pizza).

My recollection of the pizza in Buffalo was that it was indistinguishable from NY pizza.

This website has caused me to think about pizza more in a few weeks than I have in my whole life.

Bob


Offline OzPizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #242 on: September 16, 2005, 10:38:37 PM »
Had an excellent session last night. Might I add some back story for forster444. I have had more than my share of real NY pizza experiences, starting at as kid living in Westchester county in the 70's. For me there are some definite taste factors of the NY crust combined with use of cheese. The definitions breaks down into different variations on the theme from there depending who's making it.

I would say with this commercial caboolture mozzarella I tried last night was as good as you can get here. Sadly I didn't photograph anything  (mind you I do have a small nokia phone video of a slice I sent to a friend) because of the company I had. The whole milk had awesome stretch, perfect browning and great taste. I feel like I took another huge leap last night and am now regretting not getting any photos. Both pizza easily matched the browning of the store bought one Forster444 posted. Also, Forster if you go back to some of my other posts, you see much more ideal browning: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg15713.html#msg15713.

Here's the brief clip(low quality, 76k) for anyone who feels like downloading(opens with quicktime or realplayer):  http://members.ozemail.com.au/~jazzman/Pizza/Video014.3gp

« Last Edit: September 16, 2005, 10:48:44 PM by OzPizza »
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Offline foster444

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #243 on: September 16, 2005, 11:45:07 PM »
Ha!  Westchester!  You don't need me telling you about New York Pizza!

Where in Westchester did you live?  And how did you end up in Australia?

Offline OzPizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #244 on: September 17, 2005, 12:02:22 AM »
Ha! Westchester! You don't need me telling you about New York Pizza!

Where in Westchester did you live? And how did you end up in Australia?

Rye to be exact. My first post on the forum talks about a pizza restaurant called Cosmos that I last ate pizza at circa 1985. That particular pizza still has it's 'signature' taste in my mind from back then. I'd love to trace where the owners went and whether they still make pizza somewhere.
I was an Australian who's family moved to Rye, due to my fathers job which was for a company in NYC. 10 years later they moved him to another office outside the US and I eventually ended up back here circa 1990.
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Offline foster444

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #245 on: September 17, 2005, 07:54:52 AM »
A stone's throw from where I sit as I type this.  I've skated my share at Playland.

Offline OzPizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #246 on: September 17, 2005, 09:38:03 PM »
A stone's throw from where I sit as I type this. I've skated my share at Playland.

Well, there you go. It's a small world hey. I still reflect on how neat it was as youngster to have an amusement park within 10 mins of where I lived :)
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Offline foster444

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #247 on: September 17, 2005, 09:42:31 PM »
Small world indeed, Ozzie.

Offline abc

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #248 on: September 21, 2005, 07:09:27 PM »
The NYC area has an abundance of the best mozzarella cheeses, including Grande in many places. They are among the best in the country. Peter

hi, i'm new... i'm in NYC, and perhaps i shouldn't have just said that,.. but where can i pick up loaves of mozz?  i haven't seen Grande... i emailed grande last week...

i had been buying 5lb pollyo low moisture on and off for about 10 yrs, at local italian food marts and particularly BJ wholesale... about 10-12dollars for the loaf.. but never liked that it had zero aroma and grease when baked on a pizza like 'real' pizzas.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #249 on: September 22, 2005, 12:52:46 PM »
abc,

Welcome to the forum.

I would be very happy for our members to be able to use the finest ingredients on a Lehmann NY style pizza dough, including the best cheeses. I was thinking of Dom DeMarco at DiFara's when I mentioned Grande cheese in my earlier post, since Dom uses the Grande line of cheeses for his pizzas.

As you may know, Grande cheese is basically distributed to professional pizza operators. In some parts of the country, it is also sold at retail, but not widely so. In most cases, the cheeses at the retail level are either private branded or otherwise do not bear the Grande label. So the only way to know if it is Grande inside the package is to ask.

On the outside chance that I might be able to identify a source of the Grande product for you, this morning I called a food distributor, DiCarlo Food Service, an independent food distributor who services the NY metro area. They carry a lot of pizza ingredients and are located in Holtsville, NY, which I understand is in Long Island. They even have a website, at http://www.dicarlofood.com/.  When I called this morning, I was told that they have a cash-and-carry store next to their main facility, where individuals can purchase from among the items carried in the store. They do not carry everything listed at their website, only the most popular items. The store is open Monday through Saturday, from 8 AM to 5 PM. They take no checks but will take Visa and Master Charge for purchases in excess of $25. I was told that one should call them, at 631-758-6000, ext. 350, to inquire as to any particular product(s) and availability, and make any necessary pre-arrangements for pickup.

I spoke mostly to Gabe in the store. He told me that they do carry the Grande cheese, but only by the case, which constitutes several "bricks" weighing a total of 55 pounds. When I asked him if he could help me find a source of the cheese in smaller quantity, he suggested inquiring in local pizzerias that use the Grande and try to prevail upon them to sell in small amounts. He also indicated that they carry a DiCarlo whole-milk mozzarella cheese that they will sell in smaller amounts. I suspect this is the type of cheese they sell to pizza operators who do not wish to pay premium prices for Grande, especially when there are any number of local sources of mozzarella cheeses of acceptable quality with better pricing.

I was also interested to learn from Gabe that the store carries many other pizza ingredients and brands of interest to us as home pizza makers. They include the Escalon tomatoes (including 6-in-1s), and a good part of the Stanislaus line of tomatoes (7/11, Alta Cucina, etc.). These are sold by the can (#10) or by the case. They do not carry any DOP San Marzano tomatoes in the store but do carry a more generic San Marzano canned tomato. (The DiCarlo website, however, shows that they carry the Vantia DOP SMs; maybe they will sell it if specifically requested).

DiCarlo's also carries the Hormel brand pepperoni and their own house brand in sliced form in a 10-pound bag. When I asked about flours, I was told that they carry the All Trumps flour (a good high-gluten flour for use in the Lehmann or any other NY style dough recipe) and also the Caputo 00 flour. When I inquired whether the Caputo flour was in the 25 kilo bag (55 pounds), he said that it was in one-kilo bags with a blue label. I believe this is not the same Caputo 00 flour most of us have been using at this forum, but rather another "blue label" 00 Caputo flour that I have heard is being tested in the U.S. and is more like all-purpose flour. But don't quote me on that, since I may not have it right.

I did not inquire as to pricing. At this point I was just trying to scope out the operation to see if they have or do anything that might be of benefit to our members who live in the NY area and are looking for the best pizza ingredients. From what I can see at this point, it looks like one could make a killer Lehmann NY pie with just the ingredients from DiCarlo's. For those who are interested, my best advice is to call DiCarlo's and see what they have to offer and double check on all the groundrules relating to cash-and-carry purchase from them. It might also be useful to inquire whether they will sell stuff shown on their website but not carried in the store.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 22, 2005, 01:15:50 PM by Pete-zza »


 

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