Author Topic: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza  (Read 492854 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #280 on: October 23, 2005, 01:43:09 PM »
As regular readers and followers of the Lehmann thread know, the basic Lehmann doughs use very little yeast, a common amount being 0.25% IDY (by weight of flour). Recently, I conducted an experiment in which I lowered that limit even further, to 0.17%. As part of that experiment, I also decided to lower the finished dough temperature from the 80 degrees F that I usually use to 75 degrees F. This was done in an effort to prolong the fermentation period beyond the usual 24-48 hours, to over 72 hours. I chose to retain a high hydration ratio, at 63%, with the objective of achieving an open and airy crust and crumb, and I chose not to add any sugar to increase either browning of the crust or to prolong the useful life of the Lehmann dough beyond the typical 48-hour period.

The idea to use a lower finished dough temperature came to me somewhat as an epiphany from a Tom Lehmann piece I recently read in which he indicated that originally the targeted finished dough temperature for a cold fermented (refrigerated) dough was 75 degrees F. And this worked well for many years until he started receiving complaints from pizza operators that their doughs weren’t rising as well as they had before. When he investigated the matter, he discovered that the newer models of coolers had become more efficient and were operating several degrees cooler than their predecessors. That prompted him to increase the targeted finished dough temperature by 5 degrees to 80 degrees F. I theorized that my refrigerator is perhaps more like the coolers of old and that maybe I should really be using the old finished dough temperature target of 75 degrees F. This would mean using even cooler water in making the Lehmann dough. So, that is what I did. I used bottled water right out of the refrigerator.

As it turned out, that still wasn’t cool enough, and my finished dough temperature was around 77 degrees F. So, to remedy that, at least for the current dough batch, I placed the finished dough (lightly oiled and in a metal container with a snap-on lid) in the freezer for about 15 minutes before moving the dough into the refrigerator compartment of my refrigerator. The brief time in the freezer compartment brought the finished dough temperature down to around 75 degrees F. Next time, I will more than likely use even cooler water. However, it is good to know that I can also use the freezer to lower my dough temperature.

The formulation I used for the latest experiment, for a 16-inch Lehmann dough (using a thickness factor of 0.10), was as follows--with baker’s percents and gram equivalents.

16-inch Low-Yeast, Low-Temperature, Lehmann NY Style Dough Recipe
100%, High-gluten flour (King Arthur Sir Lancelot), 12.12 oz. (343.55 g.), (2 3/4 c. + 2 t., level measurements)
63%, Water, 7.63 oz. (216.43 g.), (between 7/8 and 1 t.)
1%, Oil, 0.12 oz. (3.44 g.), (3/4 t.)
1.75%, Salt, 0.21 oz. (6.01 g.), (a bit over 1 t.)
0.17%, IDY (instant dry yeast), 0.02 oz. (0.58 g.), (1/5 t.)
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.10
Finished dough weight = 20.11 oz. (570.01 g.)
Finished dough temperature = 75 degrees F.

What is most significant about the above formulation is how little yeast is actually used—0.02 ounces, or about 1/5 teaspoon for a dough ball weighing over a pound (20.11 oz.). To put that into perspective, one-fifth of a teaspoon is equivalent to filling up a 1/4-teaspoon measuring spoon by about 80 percent. Looking at it another way, a single 1/4-ounce (7 g.) packet of IDY as sold in the supermarket can make 12 dough balls using the above formulation. As good and efficient and economical as this might be, I doubt that Fleischmann’s or SAF will be telling bakers anytime soon to dramatically cut back on the amount of yeast they are using.

The dough was made in the usual fashion, with my KitchenAid stand mixer. However, to be sure that the 1/5-teaspoon of yeast was properly combined with an enormously greater amount of flour (almost 3 cups), I was sure to stir the mixture thoroughly with a whisk to disperse the yeast uniformly throughout the flour. It would have been simpler and more convenient to stir the yeast in with the water, but I know that yeast doesn’t like to be shocked with cold water, so I nixed that idea.

After about 72 hours in the refrigerator, the dough had risen by about 50 percent. Prior to this, the dough had slumped (as the gluten structure relaxed) but was still very firm and had hardly risen at all. The dough started to rise noticeably between 48 and 72 hours. After I removed the dough from the refrigerator to make a skin out of it, I let it set for about 1-2 hours at room temperature on my kitchen counter (while covered with a sheet of plastic wrap). The dough was soft but I had no problem shaping and stretching it into a 16-inch skin. The dough was fairly extensible (stretchy), but I somewhat expected that because of its age and high hydration. I’m fairly confident that the dough would have been less extensible after 24 hours, or even 48 hours. As noted above, up to about 48 hours, the dough was still quite firm. I believe that the lowered finished dough temperature may have contributed to this firmness by slowing down the degree and rate of fermentation of the dough.

The dough skin was dressed in usual fashion, in this instance using pureed/drained Muir Glen canned tomatoes with Penzeys pizza seasoning, fresh basil, oregano, summer savory and parsley, red pepper flakes, olive oil and grated Parmesan and Parmigiano-Reggiano cheeses; shredded part-skim, low-moisture mozzarella cheese; and a mixture of sautéed and fresh sliced mushrooms; sliced, raw green peppers; roasted red peppers; and caramelized onions. The pizza was baked on a 16-inch pizza screen for about 6 minutes on the middle oven rack position and then for a final 2-3 minutes on a pizza stone that had been preheated (at the lowest oven rack position) for about an hour at 500-550 degrees F. The photos below show the finished product.

The pizza turned out well. What especially impressed me was that there was very good oven spring, as the slice photo below shows. This seems to me to put to rest the notion that in order to get good oven spring and an open and airy crust and crumb you need to use large amounts of yeast. Proper kneading of the dough (leaning more toward underkneading than overkneading) and high hydration seem to be more important in that respect. The crust color was also quite good, considering that no added sugar, honey, dried dairy whey, dry milk or anything else like that were used. Given enough time, the enzymes in the dough will do their job and extract the natural sugars from the flour needed to feed the yeast, provide sufficient residual sugar to promote crust coloration, and produce the byproducts of fermentation that contribute to crust flavor.

Peter


Offline canadianbacon

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #281 on: October 23, 2005, 04:46:13 PM »
Hi Pete,

Can you see if you get edit your post 279 ? ... I believe that 3rd ingredient is supposed to be salt, but I thought I would ask
you to make sure, and perhaps you could just fix that for others looking.

I think I need to really start reading your posts, I seem to mostly really quickly read posts but don't take in the actual info, and
you have a lot of info there which I for the first time am starting to read. 

Are you in the pizza industry ? ... i.e. do you work at a pizzera ? own one, or are the principle pizza man ?

You really know your stuff.

Mark


Mel,

Thanks for telling us which Lehmann recipe you used in your Forno Bravo oven. An 18-inch pizza is very impressive to begin with, so I can only imagine how it comes across to all your friends and family who are fortunate to share in such a rare treat.

I have restated below the recipe you used to show grams and volumes for those who may not use the U.S. standard or who may not have scales. I'd love to get feedback from others who use an oven like yours to make Lehmann-based pizzas.

18-inch Lehmann NY Style Dough Recipe
100%, KASL high-gluten flour, 16.10 oz. (456.32 g.), (3 1/2 c. + 2 T. + 2 t., all flush measurements)
63%, Water, 10.15 oz. (287.48 g.), (a bit less than 1 1/4 c.)
1.75%, 0.28 oz. (7.99 g.), (a bit less than 1 1/2 t.)
1%, Oil, 0.16 oz. (4.56 g.), (1 t.)
0.25%, IDY (instant dry yeast), 0.04 oz. (1.14 g.), (a bit over 1/3 t.)
Thickness Factor (TF) = 0.105
Total Dough Weight = 26.72 oz. (757.49 g.)

For those who may not have seen one of your recent pizzas, I refer them to the opening post at the New Oven and New York Pizza thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2003.new.html#new.

Peter

Pizzamaker, Rib Smoker, HomeBrewer, there's not enough time for a real job.

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #282 on: October 23, 2005, 05:10:15 PM »
Mark,

Thanks for catching my omission in Reply # 279. I have edited the reply to reference the salt.

Thanks also for the compliment. No, I have no connection with the pizza industry in any way. I am just a student of pizza and a home hobbyist. I experiment to teach myself things and to confirm my understanding of how things work. And when I don't understand something or I get stumped, I research the matter.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 23, 2005, 05:13:29 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline canadianbacon

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #283 on: October 23, 2005, 11:16:33 PM »
I agree.  I've been reading nothing but Peter's posts tonight.  Watching TV and checking out all the great info
Peter has written.  I'm really for the first time reading about Peter's "Tom Lehmann's recipe.

I think tomorrow I'm going to head over to the grovery store and look for some bread flour.  Bread flour
is what I need right ? ( it's high gluten ).... right now I'm using all purpose.

I am in Canada, and you just can't order flour like you do in the might U.S.A, we just don't have places like you do.

Anyway I'm getting excited about trying out this recipe.

I have to be very honest, and say that eventhough I've been making pizza for about 15 years or so ( off and on ),
I am a creature of habit, and never weight or measure out my ingredients for the dough.

I usually heat up a cup of water, throw that into my Kitchen Aid bowl, check the temp with my finger, when it feels
right I throw in some dry yeast out of my can, and then add a bit of sugar..... wait about 15 mins until it froths up,
then throw in a pinch of salt.... then start the KA going and then add in some oil ( about 3 tablespoons ) and then I just start dumping in flour until it "looks right " ..... I think I must change my ways and start measuring out my stuff.

I have a wierd thing that happens many times.... I will get a dough to look right, but then I'll be about to lift it out of the bowl (KA bowl ) and then it becomes very sticky after I turn the dough hook off, so I will add in a good 1/4 cup more flour and get the thing going again.... this then gets pulled in and eaten up by the wet dough, and the cycle continues.... I'll then do it once again, and perhaps a 3rd time.  Then I get a bit disappointed and just throw in some more yeast and only let the dough hook turn a few times so it doesn't eat up that new flour, but so it kind of just coats the dough so it comes away from the bowl.... and then I can get it out without it all being a big sticky mess.

I don't know Peter, - when you are mixing your dough, and it's mixing for say 10 minutes, are you saying all of that time -- *after * you have mixed in your exact amount of dough, - the dough does not or IS not sticky enough where it more sticky than not sticky ? ..... I guess what I mean is, does it really not stick all over to the bowl ? .... when you do your dough, is it a perfect dough ball just clinging to your dough hook, and you can pull it out perfectly kind of in one shot ?

I think I read that you said that if you keep kneading long enough in the KA, that the dough will kind of get less sticky, and become one nice big mass of dough..... perhaps I'm misunderstanding that.

Anyway I am hoping to get this process down pat in my head, but need I guess to first start measuring out exactly the amounts
I need to use.

Anyway you are a real inspiration to this forum Peter, that's all I can say.

Mark

Peter, I think a huge part of it is YOU and YOUR expertice.  You have added such a wealth of knowledge on this thread that I often come back to reread posts.   

I think they need to give you a food network show.
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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #284 on: October 23, 2005, 11:22:41 PM »
Hi again Peter, I forgot to mention one thing, - I always make my pizza right after making the dough.  So let's say I start making my dough at 5pm, well by 5:40 pm or so I can already be rolling out the dough and getting it ready for the oven.

I know I was reading something that you wrote, about the chemistry of the dough sort of  changing or "working" overnight in the fridge.....

what actually happens when the dough is in the fridge for a good 24 hours ? ....  does it actually change the *taste* of the dough ? or does it only change the bubbles in the dough ? perhaps the texture ?

anyway thanks in advance Peter.

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #285 on: October 24, 2005, 12:40:43 PM »
Mark,

The way you have been making your pizza dough will produce a pizza, but it will not be a high quality product. Just throwing things together in a bowl will also often lead to the types of problems you have experienced with stickiness of the dough and tinkering too much with the flour and water trying to get the right texture and consistency. I am a big advocate of weighing the flour and water. They represent the bulk of the dough and it is important in my view to get the right hydration, that is, the ratio of water to flour, by weight of flour. If you have a scale good enough to accurately weigh the other ingredients, that is also a good thing but it is less critical since their amounts are usually small and hard to accurately measure out. It is for this reason that I try to include in most of my recipes, including the Lehmann recipes, the volume equivalents to the weight measurements. Even if you are off a bit on the volume measurements, it won't usually have a material effect on the finished dough.

My practice in making doughs is to hold back on some of the water I have weighed out to use to make the doughs. If, after all the ingredients have been mixed and kneaded in the bowl, I see that the dough looks and feels dry or stiff, I trickle in a bit more water and knead that in. I keep doing this until the dough is smooth and feels a bit tacky and it has absorbed most (or all) of the water. The hydration of the flour is not instantaneous, and a dough that looks like it has absorbed a lot of the water can often take more, especially if you do a bit of hand kneading to speed up the absorption of the water by the flour. But I don't try to force the dough to take more water just because I weighed it out in accordance with the recipe. Flours vary from one lot to another and from one bag to another, and will change with time and storage conditions. When the dough is properly made, it should definitely clear the sides of the bowl and it should come off the hook in pretty much one piece. Stand mixers are not especially efficient machines so I will usually do a bit of hand kneading before putting the dough into its container.

Where you will experience poor results with a dough made in about an hour is that it will be underfermented. Depending on the amount of yeast you use and the temperatures involved, the yeast will typically take 15-30 minutes just to get acclimated to its surroundings before it can efficiently and adequately perform the many tasks it is called upon to do. Also, the enzymes in the flour (alpha and beta amylase) that extract sugar from the flour to feed the yeast will not have had much time to do this. So, while there will be carbon dioxide and ethyl alcohol produced through the fermentation of the available fermentible sugar, they will not be in abundance and you will not get much dough volume expansion or adequate residual sugar to promote good crust browning.

Also, there are enzymes in the flour, most notably, protease, that work to soften the gluten in the dough and cause it to relax to shed its elasticity characteristics. If these enzymes are not given enough time to work on the gluten, you will usually get an overly elastic dough that resists shaping and stretching. This is especially so if the flour used is a high-protein, high-gluten flour, which yields a more developed, stronger gluten network. If you bake the pizza at this stage, what you will usually get is a bland, insipid-tasting crust with a cardboard like texture and quite possibly a light color. You might also get a lot of bubbling because of the underfermentation. It may be possible to compensate to a certain extent for the sub-par crust by your sauce, cheeses and other toppings, but if the crust isn't of high quality to begin with it will be hard to get a pizza of the highest quality.

The reason that you won't get good crust flavor using your approach is that there are a host of other functions, numbering in the hundreds, that take place within the dough over time, whether the dough is kept at room temperature or in the refrigerator. There are bacteria, most notably, lactobacillus, that help convert part of the alcohol to organic acids, such as lactic and acetic acids, that are byproducts of bacterial action that contribute to flavor in the finished crust. A part of the alcohol will also remain in the dough and burn off during baking, leaving behind a residue that also contributes to flavor. There are also many other compounds (esters, aldehydes, etc.) that are produced that contribute to flavor and odor. To get all of these benefits, you need adequate time. They won't be produced in adequate abundance within an hour. I don't want to leave you with the impression that the flavor improvement from long fermentation times will knock your socks off. To get such a dramatic improvement in crust flavor, you would have to use a natural preferment or starter. You can also get better flavor if the dough can make it out to 48 hours or more without overfermenting.

Your decision to go to bread flour should help. Bread flour has more protein than all-purpose flour and yields more gluten than all-purpose flour. You will also get a bit more flavor and a bit more color just because of the higher-protein content, and you will also be able to use a higher hydration because a high protein flour can absorb more water than a lower protein flour. This might help with the stickiness problem you have experienced, especially if you manage the use of water better, as discussed above. The bread flour will also yield a better crust, from the standpoint of chewiness and crispiness. If you wish, you can even increase the protein content of the bread flour further by using vital wheat gluten. I have done this on many occasions when I wanted to use a Lehmann recipe to make a NY style pizza but had no high-gluten flour available to me. I discussed some of my experiments along these lines in earlier posts on this thread. The vital wheat gluten will increase the chewiness of the crust but not the crispiness. My recollection from some of Canadave's posts in the past is that vital wheat gluten is available in Canada.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 24, 2005, 12:46:04 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline BIG Daddy

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #286 on: October 24, 2005, 02:39:01 PM »
Peter;
Just a note to let you know that Tom Lehmann now teaches both the  WINDOW PANE method and the TWO THUMB DOUGH BALL method to check on the readiness of the pizza dough.  At least this is what was taught at the pizza seminar I just attended.
BIG Daddy ;D
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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #287 on: October 24, 2005, 02:56:51 PM »
BIG Daddy,

Thank you. That's funny, because early on in this thread I quoted Tom as telling me to forget about the windowpane test. It's possible that he was thinking of a home environment rather than a professional pizza operation. However, I noted recently that the windowpane test was creeping back into his writings, along with the two thumb approach. When Tom originally told me to forget about the windowpane test, I did even though I was somewhat skeptical about doing so, especially since other dough experts like Peter Reinhart, Jeffrey Steingarten, Alton Brown, and others whose names escape me at the moment, were advocating use of that test. I found myself softpedalling the test when asked for advice on the point. My advice to others has been to try the test to get a feel for it but to rely more on the overall feel of the dough. I found that once I achieved that feel, the dough invariably passed the windowpane test anyway.

I like it when people change their minds and don't lock themselves into hardened positions from which they refuse to retreat. I find myself rethinking things all the time as new information comes to my attention, and at times it can be a bit humbling to discover that I don't know as much as I thought I did.

Peter

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #288 on: October 24, 2005, 03:10:02 PM »
Mark,

The way you have been making your pizza dough will produce a pizza, but it will not be a high quality product. Just throwing things together in a bowl will also often lead to the types of problems you have experienced with stickiness of the dough and tinkering too much with the flour and water trying to get the right texture and consistency.

Peter

I strongly disagree with the above statement. I never ever measured the flour before start writing about pizza. Even now, on my consultancy job, I measured a quantity, then from it I take as much as I feel like the dough needs, and then I measure the remaining to know how much I have use it. If you guys are using a 25kg Caputo bags over a month or more, I would bet with you all if you get the same dough adding 1.8kg flour per liter as soon as you open the bag, and 1.8 at the end of the same bag after a month or more. Also, each day the dough is affected by too many factors..
I keep saying that in Baking there cannot be recipes but methods and technique, that needs experience to be implemented properly.

Ciao
« Last Edit: October 24, 2005, 03:12:42 PM by pizzanapoletana »

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #289 on: October 24, 2005, 03:50:44 PM »
Marco,

I appreciate and respect your comments and have noted your approach on this matter from my visits to the Italian pizza forum. However, my advice is intended for those home pizza makers who either have little experience with making pizza doughs or who have been having problems making their doughs. It is also to get a better handle on the hydration percent, while acknowledging the need to occasionally make midcourse corrections as the dough making process proceeds. You are an expert who has learned from long experience how to make a quality dough without having to weigh things. I saw the same thing with Dom DeMarco at DiFara's. He has been making dough for so long that he doesn't have to weigh anything. He uses volume measurements, and rough ones at that. I have seen the same thing from other pizza operators who, like Dom DeMarco, have making doughs for years. My emphasis has been on helping the home pizza maker who has not yet reached expert status. The use of "recipes" or formulas on this thread is simply a mechanism to allow users to have flexibility and variety in the Lehmann doughs they make, mainly in being able to make any size Lehmann pizza they want while retaining the classic NY crust characteristics. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find that many of our members have made enough Lehmann doughs that they no longer have to weigh or measure out things and can do it by "feel", just as you do with your Neapolitan style doughs.

Peter


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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #290 on: November 06, 2005, 10:01:31 PM »
Anyone for mini Lehmann’s?

One of the ideas that I have been kicking around in my mind for some time has been the thought of making some mini Lehmann pizzas—the kind that someone might serve to guests as hors d’oeuvres or finger food at a party or other gathering. Since I had a Lehmann dough ball in my freezer as part of one of my earlier experiments with frozen dough, I decided that I would use that dough ball for my experiment with mini Lehmann pizzas, even though the dough had been in my freezer for about 18 days. The dough ball was of a size to make a standard 16-inch pizza or two 12-inch pizzas. The dough recipe I used was the standard one for a 16-inch Lehmann pizza, with a total dough weight of about 20 ounces.

In preparation for making the mini pizzas, I let the frozen dough “slack out” (thaw) in the refrigerator section of my refrigerator for almost two days. I then brought it to room temperature, divided it into two smaller balls, covered them with a sheet of plastic wrap, and let them rise for about 2 hours. As the dough was rising, I gathered all the ingredients I wanted to try on the mini pizzas. They included green peppers, onion, sauteed mushrooms, and pepperoni. I cut the green peppers and onion into small dice on the theory that they would be easier to distribute on the mini pizzas. For the sauce, I made a simple 6-in-1 sauce with Penzeys seasonings and some red pepper flakes, and I also cut up some leftover San Marzano DOP tomatoes. For cheeses, I shredded some processed low-moisture part skim mozzarella cheese and I also cut slices of that cheese to see which form would work better on the mini pizzas. I decided also to make a few mini Margherita pizzas using some fresh mozzarella cheese, which I cut into slices and roughly halved to be able to fit on the mini dough rounds. I tried not to go overboard on the toppings because I didn't want the cheeses to melt and run off the mini pizzas and make a mess.

When the two dough balls had risen sufficiently, I rolled each dough ball out with a rolling pin to around 12 inches. I then took a 3-inch cookie cutter (as shown in one of the photos below) and cut 3-inch rounds out of the rolled out dough. They shrunk a little and went off round a bit, but they seemed otherwise to be in fine shape. After I had cut out all the mini dough rounds, I lined them up in close succession in a row and column format on a lightly floured work surface and then started dressing them. I started with the sauce/San Marzanos and then added the various other toppings in several different combinations. Surprisingly, I didn’t find myself hurried. The mini dough rounds just sat there patiently waiting to be acted upon. And they didn’t stick to anything. So, even though it took some time to dress them, I felt very relaxed and not rushed.

When I was done dressing the mini dough rounds, I gently picked them up and placed them on a 16-inch pizza screen and also on a 12-inch pizza screen (there were too many to fit on one screen). There were 29 dressed mini rounds on the two pizza screens. There was also some scrap pieces of dough that I gathered together into a ball, flattened, and set aside so that the gluten would relax and allow me to get a few more rounds or maybe a small pizza out of the scrap dough.

The first two photos below show the dressed mini rounds on the screens. To bake the mini pizzas, I started with the 16-inch screen, by depositing it on the upper rack position of my oven, which I had preheated for about 1 hour at around 500-550 degrees F, along with a pizza stone that I had placed on the lowest oven rack position. The mini pizzas baked for about 4 minutes, at which time the crusts were starting to turn brown, and I shifted the mini pizzas onto the preheated pizza stone for about an additional minute or so. To get the mini pizzas from the screen to the stone, I used a pan gripper (shown in a photo below) as is customarily used to grip a deep-dish pan. I grabbed the edge of the pizza screen with the pan gripper and shook the screen. The mini pizzas slid right onto the stone. Once the mini pizzas were done, I removed them from the oven and put them on a wire rack. This was the toughest part of the whole job since there is no convenient or quick way to remove all those little pizzas from the stone. I used a metal spatula. It later occurred to me that it might be possible to bake the mini pizzas on the stone while they remain on the pizza screen. When I removed the first batch of mini pizzas from the oven, I baked the second batch on the 12-inch screen. I even used the leftover scrap dough to make a small pizza to use up most of the remaining toppings. That pizza is shown in the last photo below.

The mini pizzas were absolutely delicious. I had to restrain myself from trying to eat them all. I don’t think that they would last long around a bunch of kids. They are two or three bite pizzas (about 2 1/2 inches across), just enough for a finger food. The crust was as good as any I have made with the Lehmann dough—crunchy, chewy and with very nice flavor. And they didn’t immediately dry up and turn tough. They were still good even after 15 minutes. That means not having to rush to get them to guests as soon as they come out of the oven, although obviously that is when they will be at their very best. I also did not end up preferring one method of dressing the mini rounds over any other. Everything I tried (shreds, slices, etc.) worked out fine.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 06, 2005, 10:18:10 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #291 on: November 06, 2005, 10:06:26 PM »
The baked minis plus tools and a small pizza made from the scrap dough.

« Last Edit: November 06, 2005, 10:10:42 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #292 on: November 06, 2005, 10:20:52 PM »
Great post Peter, and very interesting also ( insert scary music here ) ... and here's why...

my son went to a friend's house today ( he's 7 ) and when he got home he told my wife he had mini-pizzas at his friend's house, and wanted my wife to buy some.  Anyway we were both sitting here and I said to her , hey why don't I make some dough next week and then I'll roll it out, and use a cookie cutter to cut some dough into circles and make mini pizzas !, I thought about it 2 seconds and then said that I would use some one of the large glass kitchen glasses we have that we bought from IKEA.  They are large enough to make a nice sized mini pizza.  Anyway so I said all of that and forgot about it, and all of a sudden your post comes in haha, amazing.

Anyway i'm on my laptop just here in the living room watching Grey's Anatomy with my wife, so tilted the computer around so she could see the pizzas, anyway I said to her isn't that kind of neat that somebody on my pizza forum did that and I was also thinking of that, she wasn't too excited about that part, but I thought it was neat... strange how sometimes 2 people can be thinking of the same thing.

Yup, great little bite size treats !

anyway thanks for the posting , the images are great Peter !

oh and just a little additon, my wife wants to know if you deliver hehehehe, she wants a snack !  ;D

Mark
« Last Edit: November 06, 2005, 10:24:57 PM by canadianbacon »
Pizzamaker, Rib Smoker, HomeBrewer, there's not enough time for a real job.

Offline Wallman

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #293 on: November 20, 2005, 11:39:58 AM »
I've been trying to follow the Lehmann dough recipe. I've had pretty good success IMHO. Since I can't find KASL, I've been using KA bread flour and VWG, using the 16 inch recipe.  I tried to follow it closely, although my measurements were probably not precise since I don't have a very good scale (and my 4 year old was helping so at least a few tablespoons of flour went on the floor, work surface, ceiling, walls, etc.).

I used a stand mixer and kneeded for about 8-10 minutes. The dough temp. was only about 75 F after mixing -- I think the water that went in was roughtly 80-85 F.  The dough set for about 20 hours in the fridge and maybe 2 hours at room temp. before shaping and dressing. 

The dough was very pliable and shaped and tossed easily in about a 15 inch pie (16 won't quite fit on my tiles.  It tasted great, in fact we polished it off in about 10 minutes.  My only question, is does the lower dough temp. and abrievated cold rise make a big difference?  This seemed to work out pretty well, it tasted good to me!

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #294 on: November 20, 2005, 02:00:57 PM »
wallman,

Welcome to the forum. I'm glad that you liked the results from using the KABF (King Arthur bread flour) and the vital wheat gluten (VWG).

Dough temperature can be a factor in the amount and rate of fermentation. Generally speaking, all other things being equal, the higher the dough temperature, the greater the fermentation, and vice versa. This is usually not a problem for the Lehmann dough if you plan to use the dough within say, 24 hours or so, as you did. But when you get to around 48 hours or so, the Lehmann dough can become rather extensible (stretchy) and, especially so, if the dough had a high finished dough temperature when it went into the refrigerator. The high hydration level of a typical Lehmann dough, around 63% in many of the recipes I have posted, will also cause the dough to ferment faster. So, it is useful to keep in mind the factors that influence the amount and rate of fermentation.

When I plan to use a Lehmann dough beyond 24-48 hours, I watch water temperature very carefully to be sure that I get a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F, even to the point of using ice cold water. As an alternative to using colder water, I will sometimes freeze the finished dough (in a container) for about 15-30 minutes (for an amount of dough for a 16-inch pizza) and then place it in the refrigerator compartment of my refrigerator. I also frequently use a metal container to hold the dough, because metal allows the dough to cool down a bit faster. Another tip to slow down the fermentation is to use less yeast. You have to be a bit careful here, however, because if you use too little yeast along with cold water (which yeast doesn't really like) or other temperature-lowering measures, you may find that your dough doesn't ferment properly and it will be sluggish when time comes to use it.

As far as counter rise time is concerned, the general rule is that the dough is ready to use when its internal temperature gets to around 50-55 degrees F. Depending on room temperature, this can take less than an hour to over two hours. Beyond that time, the dough will usually be good for another few hours, depending again on the room temperature. The reason for allowing a reasonable counter time is to minimize the possibility of bubbling or blistering occurring when the pizza is loaded into the oven and baked. Some people like bubbles and will bake their pizzas sooner to get the bubbles.

Looking at your pizza, and especially the crumb, you may want to try reducing the knead time by a few minutes, for example, to about 5-6 minutes at speed 1 or 2 on a KitchenAid mixer, once all of the dough ingredients have come together into a rough mass. The photo of the finished pizza you posted also shows a fairly light crust. Unless this was just a photo issue, you might consider baking the pizza under the broiler for a minute or two after it has been on the tiles, to produce a bit more top crust browning.

Peter

Offline Wallman

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #295 on: November 20, 2005, 03:29:44 PM »
Pete,
Thanks for the tips.  I really enjoy your suggestions and recipes. The crust on the pizza was pretty light, I last pizza I did (last week) was a little over cooked, so I pulled this one quickly. I'll try the shorter mix time and the broiler idea. I have also found brushing a little olive oil around the rim of the crust makes it brown up quickly. I did a longer mix in order to try and get the dough temp. up to 80, but after 10 minutes it was only at 75.  I don't think I need to worry too much about dough temp. for holding the dough. I can barely wait 24 hours to make and eat the pizza let alone 48 or longer.  Our family ritual is Thursday dough making, Friday pizza baking, my four year old is an enthusiastic kneeder! :)

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #296 on: November 20, 2005, 06:16:51 PM »
wallman,

Tom Lehmann says you shouldn't knead to temperature, i.e., a desired finished dough temperature. You knead only to the point where the dough achieves the desired finished condition.

Peter

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #297 on: November 21, 2005, 12:01:48 PM »
Recently, I experimented with a new way to bake a Lehmann pizza. Instead of using a pizza stone or tiles or any other such arrangement, I used a bed of rocks. A preheated bed of rocks to be more exact. The idea came to me recently when I was at a local Middle Eastern grocery/bakery looking to buy some freshly made pita breads. When I asked the owner if he could show me how they made the pita breads, he obligingly took me over to a Bakers Pride oven. In the oven was a large rectangular tray filled with rocks arranged in what appeared to be a single layer. I was told that the oven is heated to 650 degrees F and the preshaped pita doughs are baked on top of the preheated bed of rocks. I believe that the arrangement I saw is intended to simulate a version of a Middle Eastern oven called a taboon (which also appears in the name of the bakery). A light bulb went off in my head and I wondered whether this technique would work to bake a pizza.

So I went back home, and rounded up a bunch of rocks from my backyard, and washed and dried them. I tried to get rocks of roughly equal size, just as I saw in the bakery. Some were round and some were angular. Since I didn’t have a large rectangular metal tray, I chose to use a flat 14-inch round metal pizza pan. For this pizza, I decided to use an amount of dough sufficient to make a 9-inch pizza since I figured that I would be able to deposit it safely on top of the 14-inch pan. To make the dough, I used a food processor. I did this because it does a better job of kneading a small amount of dough (6.70 ounces) than does a KitchenAid mixer.

The dough was cold fermented for around 24 hours and brought to room temperature to warm up for about two hours prior to shaping and dressing. The dough handled easily and was shaped and stretched to 9 inches. I’m not sure whether I posted a Lehmann dough recipe for a 9-inch before, but this is the formulation I used:

Lehmann NY Style Dough Recipe for 9-inch Pizza
100%, King Arthur Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour, 4.03 oz. (114.25 g.), (3/4 c. + 3 T. + 2 t.)
63%, Water (room temperature), 2.54 oz. (72.01 g.), (a bit over 1/3 c.)
1.75%, Salt, 0.07 oz. (1.99 g.), (3/8 t.)
1%, Oil, 0.04 oz. (1.13 g.), (1/4 t.)
0.25%, Instant dry yeast (IDY), 0.01 oz. (0.28 g.), (about 80% of a 1/8-t. measuring spoon)
Total dough weight = 6.70 oz.
Thickness factor = 0.105
Finished dough temperature = 81 degrees F

For the pizza, I used a 6-in-1 tomato sauce with Penzeys pizza seasoning, some partially-cooked Italian sausage (removed from its casing), roasted red peppers, some caramelized Vidalia onions, pepperoni, and a mixture of fresh mozzarella cheese pieces and shredded processed mozzarella cheese. I would say that the pizza was fairly aggressively dressed. It was baked on the bed of rocks, which I had preheated for about an hour on the lowest oven rack position at around 500-550 degrees F. It took about 6 to 7 minutes for the pizza to bake, more or less in line with the time it usually takes to bake a Lehmann dough on a pizza stone.

The preheated bed of rocks approach worked very well. The pizza was surprisingly very tasty. The slices did look a bit odd, with wavelike dimples in the bottom as a result of the dough settling into the interstices of the bed of rocks during baking.  But the crust was chewy, and crunchy and crispy at the rim, with good crust flavor. In retrospect, it occurs to me that if I had used a much bigger pan I could have used more rocks and made a much bigger pizza. I still haven’t figured out all of the implications and potential applications for the bed of rocks arrangement that I used, apart from the fact that it works and is far cheaper than a pizza stone (but maybe equivalent to tiles when the pan cost is factored in). I will have to attempt a larger pizza sometime to see how it compares to one baked on a pizza stone.

In the series of photos below I have shown the rock arrangement I used, and examples of the finished pizza and slices.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 21, 2005, 12:11:43 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #298 on: November 21, 2005, 12:07:30 PM »
And slices...


Offline mmarston

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #299 on: November 21, 2005, 12:22:31 PM »
I've got it! A combination Sauna and Pizza Oven
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