Author Topic: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza  (Read 535948 times)

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Offline BeerdedOne

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1000 on: March 23, 2012, 12:49:11 AM »
Thank you!  It's a wonderful dough formulation = :pizza:

Norma, it's just 100% KABF baked in an electric home oven.  I employed a modified autolyse (80% flour + 100% water and yeast) for 20 minutes, followed by 5 minutes of kneading and then slow incorporation of the remaining flour (this is mostly to compensate for the particularities of the KA mixer I use).

I'm still trying to learn how to open dough effectively and with as little handling as necessary.  You can see some obvious flaws in this regard, and, due to the relatively fast cooking time one side of the pizza cooked more than the other (this side was toward the portion of the oven with the vent, which runs hotter).. so I'm going to have to get better at quickly turning the pies as well, as I would like to go hotter and faster with a flour+water+salt+yeast dough.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 12:52:52 AM by BeerdedOne »


Offline MUAATH

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1001 on: June 04, 2012, 07:45:23 AM »
Pete

I looking last updated on NY Pizza recipe
to commercial business please help. Thanks.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1002 on: June 04, 2012, 09:09:31 AM »
Pete

I looking last updated on NY Pizza recipe
to commercial business please help. Thanks.

MUUATH,

To the best of my knowledge, the official commercial Lehmann NY style dough recipe is the one given at the PMQ website at http://pmq.com/tt2/recipe/view/id_151/title_New-York-Style-Pizza/. There is also a slightly different version with less salt that Tom Lehmann donated to this forum, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann_nystyle.php.

You will note that the instructions for both versions mention sugar but the sugar is not shown in the recipes themselves. I believe that that was an oversight. However, Tom has indicated that sugar can be added to the dough when the fermentation period is to be greater than about two days. For such uses, he typically recommends adding 1-2% sugar.

Peter

EDIT (3/22/13): For the updated link to the PMQ recipe, see http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/New-York-Style-Pizza/record/57724/
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 09:30:49 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline MUAATH

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1003 on: July 18, 2012, 07:30:28 AM »
pete

After returning to PMQ website at http://pmq.com/tt2/recipe/view/id_151/title_New-York-Style-Pizza/
I noticed not talk about the stage of fermentation after mixing
Directly to the cooling I need to explain Thanks.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1004 on: July 18, 2012, 08:36:37 AM »
After returning to PMQ website at http://pmq.com/tt2/recipe/view/id_151/title_New-York-Style-Pizza/
I noticed not talk about the stage of fermentation after mixing
Directly to the cooling I need to explain Thanks.

MUAATH,

The instructions that are given for the NY style dough formulation at http://pmq.com/tt2/recipe/view/id_151/title_New-York-Style-Pizza/ are Tom's standard instructions. if you are wondering whether he lets the dough balls rest and ferment for a while before putting them into the cooler, as some pizza operators do to speed up the fermentation process, the answer is no although the dough balls will be at room temperature until they have all been formed and may get a little fermentation activity until the last dough ball has been formed. The formation of the dough balls typically takes around 20 minutes for a normal dough batch.

Tom has written elsewhere on his basic method for making dough. You might want to read his instructions as given at Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7499.msg64554/topicseen.html#msg64554. You might also want to take a look at the videos at and

Peter

EDIT (3/22/13): For the updated link to the PMQ recipe, see http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/New-York-Style-Pizza/record/57724/
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 09:27:32 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pizza De Puta

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1005 on: July 25, 2012, 01:40:52 PM »
We started working on our NY Pizza recipe with the idea of eventually opening business sometime in the future.  This is my 3rd try handling dough so I've only just begun the learning process.  Using one of the recipes here, this pizza is my best so far.  It is done with a 16" recipe but I had to split things into two dough balls to accomdate my Kenmore electric kitchen oven, attached is a picture of one of them, it is a 12" pie.  Temp was set on bake at 500F but I don't think it gets that hot.  The pizza was cooked on a several untreated ceramic 3/8' tiles set on the bottom rack and took about 10 minutes to bake.  This home oven is definitely a limiting factor.

Recipe used:

2 3/4 cups of flour
1 cup water
1 t ADY
1/2 t salt
1 t olive oil
1 t sugar
hydration 63%

Flour used was generic WinCo high gluten pizza flour.  Dough was kneeded by hand for 10 minutes (Kitchenaid mixer in repair shop).  I allowed it to rest for an hour then cut and shaped into two dough balls and refrigerated for 24 hours.  Dough was removed from the refrigerator for two hours prior to baking.  This hydration percentage is much, much easier to work with compared to the others I've tried (58-60%, and 65%) this ratio of flour to water seems to be the sweet spot. Rim brushed with olive oil on the peel. Trader Joes Mozz and Provolone (70:30) and a few pieces of fresh mozz.  Trader Joes pepperoni.  6 in 1 crushed tomatoes made into sauce recipe found on this forum.

My teenage test guinea pigs loved it!
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 02:38:42 PM by Pizza De Puta »
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Offline raj83

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1006 on: August 07, 2012, 04:29:12 AM »
From time to time, I have thought about making a same-day, few-hours pizza dough based on the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation that has been the subject of this thread. It wasn’t until I saw a post recently on the PMQ Think Tank forum, in which the poster asked Tom how to make a few-hours version of his dough formulation (see http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/noframes/read/30245), that I decided to try such a version. As will be noted from the above post, Tom recommends using 2% yeast. Based on what Tom has said before in other places, the 2% refers to fresh yeast, not instant dry yeast (IDY) or active dry yeast (ADY). For instant dry yeast--which is what I have been using--one would need to use about one-third of the 2% number (or one-half for ADY). 

I decided to make both a 2-hour cold fermented dough, with a 1-hour counter warm-up time (3 hours total), and a 2-hour room-temperature only fermented dough (2 hours total). I was somewhat puzzled by the cold fermented version because there is little that happens in a dough from a fermentation standpoint in two hours of refrigeration. Apparently I am not the only one puzzled by this. I recall that pizzanapoletana (Marco) commented on this phenomenon at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1055.msg9357.html#msg9357. The best explanation I can come up with is that the two-hour cold fermentation may be solely for the benefit of pizza operators to allow them to better manage their inventory of dough balls.

I used the same dough formulation for both dough balls, and I tried as best I could to make the dough balls as identically as possible, adhering to the recommendations set forth by Tom Lehmann in the above post. (For the benefit of beginning pizza makers, I might add that I used the basic dough preparation techniques described in Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563).

For test purposes, I elected to make 12” pizzas and to use a pizza screen to bake them. I chose to use the pizza screen because it has been very hot lately in the Dallas area and I wanted to keep the oven time to a minimum--less than one-half hour. I used my KitchenAid stand mixer for mixing and kneading purposes, but any kneading approach should work equally well. And there is no reason why a pizza stone/tiles can’t be used if desired, in which case I would use the normal protocol (temperature and time) for baking the pizzas on stones/tiles.

The dough formulation I used for both doughs was as follows:

100%, High-gluten flour (KASL), 7.14 oz. (202.26 g.), 1 3/4 c. plus 1 t.
63%, Water*, 4.49 oz. (127.42 g.), between 1/2 and 5/8 c.
1.75%, Salt, 0.12 oz. (3.54 g.), 5/8 t.
1%, Oil (extra-virgin olive oil), 0.07 oz. (2.02 g.), a bit less than 1/2 t.
0.7%, Instant dry yeast (IDY), 0.05 oz. (1.42 g.), a bit less than 1/2 t.
* Temp. adjusted to achieve a finished dough temperature of between 85-90 degree F
Total dough weight = 11.88 oz. (336.66 g.)
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105
Note: All measurements U.S./metric standard

I had no problems whatsoever in making the two dough balls or in shaping and stretching them out to 12 inches. Both doughs about doubled in volume by the time they were to be used and both had a nice balance between elasticity and extensibility. It was very easy to toss the skins made from the dough balls. In fact, I think that the dough would make a good choice for one wishing to practice their dough stretching and tossing skills.

Both 12-inch skins were dressed similarly in a simple pepperoni style. Each was baked on the lowest oven rack position of a 450-degrees F preheated oven for about 8 minutes, following which the pizza was moved off of the pizza screen to the middle rack position, where it was baked for about another 5 minutes or so, or until the rim of the crust had turned a nice shade of brown and the cheeses were bubbling and starting to turn brown in spots. The total oven time, from beginning to end, was about one-half hour.

The photos below show the finished pizzas. The first set of photos is for the 3-hour dough; the second set of photos (regrettably under different lighting conditions) is for the 2-hour dough. I thought both turned out quite well but not as well as the typical Lehmann NY style pizzas I make using one or more days of cold fermentation. The crusts had a nice brown color, top and bottom, and were chewy and fairly soft with a breadlike crumb. For my palate, there was not a great deal of crust flavor, although the KASL itself, with its high protein content, contributed some flavor. However, the crusts and pizzas were tasty enough to be able to recommend them to someone who is interested or needs to make a pizza in only a few hours time. As between the 3-hour (cold ferment plus 1 hour warm-up) and the 2-hour version, I would perhaps go with the 2-hour version since I did not detect a big enough difference to warrant the 3-hour version. I might add that the Lehmann post referenced above also talks about a 4-hour cold ferment version using 3 hours of cold fermentation and a 1-hour counter warm-up time. I didn’t try this version but I suspect it will be a bit better than the 3-hour version.

For those who are interested in learning more about short-term doughs, the following items may be of interest: http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/noframes/read/8503 and http://www.pmq.com/lehmann_winter-97-98.shtml. Note, however, that the latter article includes an error. The 7% IDY figure (in the 3d paragraph) should be 0.7%. I did not increase the oil content as suggested in the latter article, but that is something I plan to try in a future effort.

Peter
EDIT: See the Tom Lehmann Q&A on emergency dough at http://www.pmq.com/mag/200708/lehmann.php in lieu of the dead PMQ link given above.




Hi Peter,
I made pizza with this measurements given above. the dough was very sticky. The kind of flour i get in india is not of same quality.
Also i did 2 hour counter fermentation. Even after that dough was very sticky so i added bit more flour. And then made pizza out of it
it turned out well though but not like yours.
Also , wanted to know that does high gluten flour absorb more water.

Next time i am planning to make pizza with hydration levels of 57% and 24 hour cold rise

Thanks

Any help would be appreciated.

Raj

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1007 on: August 07, 2012, 08:05:45 AM »
Also , wanted to know that does high gluten flour absorb more water.

Raj,

Yes, high-gluten flour can absorb more water than a lower protein flour. For example, a typical high-gluten flour in the U.S. might have a rated absorption value of about 63% whereas a typical all-purpose flour in the U.S. might have a rated absorption value of around 60%. However, both flours can be used under the proper circumstances with higher (but not much higher) or lower hydration values.

As I was reading your post, I remembered that there was a member by the name of VarunS, also from India, who reported over at the PMQ Think Tank on problems he was having with what was a minor variation of Tom Lehmann's basic NY style dough formulation. In his case, he was using a fairly low protein all-purpose flour supplemented with vital wheat gluten (VWG), and he was also using a small amount of sugar and a cold fermentation of the dough. You can read Varun's PMQTT post, as well as Tom Lehmann's reply thereto, starting at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=73538#p73538. As you will note from Tom's reply, he suggested lowering the hydration value of the dough formulation that VarunS was using, and he adjusted the VWG and related water requirement to produce an "effective" hydration value that, by my calculation, was about 57%. That is a common hydration value for a basic NY style dough as prepared commercially. It is also the number that you mentioned in your post and are considering for your next attempt. If you can determine the protein content of the flour you have been using, that information might allow you to fine tune the hydration value to use. If the hydration value you end up using does not solve the problem and you continue to have a wet and sticky dough, then it is possible that the flour you have been using has high levels of damaged starch. I don't know if that is a problem in India but it is quite common in many countries outside of the U.S.

While it is not necessary for you to use VWG, it is a common option that is frequently used outside of the U.S. where high-gluten or other high-protein flours are not readily available. If you need any help with coming up with a final "emergency" dough formulation for your application using VWG, let me know. When I use VWG to supplement an existing flour, I use the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ to calculate how much VWG is needed to achieve the desired total protein content of the flour blend. VarunS used 15%, which I believe is too high, but the final amount would be up to you. In your case, you might try using your flour without the VWG and decide later whether it is worth trying out a VWG version.

Please feel free to report back with your results, whatever you decide to do. That is how we all learn.

Peter 

Offline lennyk

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1008 on: August 15, 2012, 07:50:32 AM »
Hi Peter,

those shops where you see guys throwing and spinning large discs, would those be 58% also ?

Where I come from(Trinidad) our higher gluten bread flour is at the limit with 58-60% and not "throwable"

Lennard


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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1009 on: August 15, 2012, 10:05:13 AM »
those shops where you see guys throwing and spinning large discs, would those be 58% also ?

Where I come from(Trinidad) our higher gluten bread flour is at the limit with 58-60% and not "throwable"

Lennard,

There are some pizza operators in the U.S. who are able to throw and spin large skins (e.g., 16" and larger) made with a hydration value above about 60%, independent of the type of flour, but they are likely to be skilled operators who have extensive experience. If the workers who make the pizzas are unskilled at working with high hydration doughs, including throwing and spinning the skins, or who may not hold their jobs for long, then it is likely that the dough hydration will be below 60%. If the skins are on the small side (e.g., 14" and lower), then it is more likely that both experienced and inexperienced workers can make the skins and throw and toss them. However, most NY style pizza places aren't likely to make only small pizzas, hence the need for more experienced workers.

Peter

Offline MrPibbs

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1010 on: August 18, 2012, 07:11:03 AM »
Pete,  this is my first "real" post.  I have spent so much time reading so many great suggestions here...I thought I would try making my first two pizzas using your exact formula in post #1, right down to weighing all the ingredients, KASL,  starting water temp at about 110F so it ended up at 82F after put in oiled bowl and refrigerated.  I even ordered the two types of tomato sauces to make this blend: http://www.escalon.net/recipes/Pizza_Sauces/classic-pizza-sauce-1 which tastes glorious.  Also ordered 5 lbs of Grande East Coast Mozzarella.  As far as I knew, I was good to go.

After a day in the frig, I began the process, and was able to slap & sag the dough out to a 16" size...but I decided to put it on one of the $6 aluminum screens, and of course forgot to coat it with oil before putting in 550F oven with stone.  So, although that one cooked well and tasted great, it was a mess trying to scrape it off the screen.

Attempt #2 last night I coated my working table with cornmeal, to stretch it with the back of my hands--again a pretty decent result.  Having learned my lesson with the &%$#% screen, I decided this time to lay the dough on my 16" wide aluminum peel, because my wood peel is only 12 inches wide.  I also liberally dusted it with cornmeal.  Didn't check to see if it slid. Added sauce and cheese, again paying no attention to see if it slid on the peel.  It looked glorious..now just slide this baby onto the oven stone...or so I thought.

That dough was practically glued onto that paddle.  The only way I could get it loose was to scrape with a spatula, fold over, force it over onto the stone, and try to unfold it with the spatula.  Sauce and cheese leaked and baked onto the 16" stone, and my wife and I tried to pretend it turned out somewhat OK.  I was flying around trying to get this mess onto the stone like a monkey getting an alien butt probe!  I was crushed at the result, not to mention numerous burns screwing around inside of the 550F oven which probably dropped to 300F by the time I shoveled what was left onto the stone.

I think I'm going to have to make my next attempt putting the dough on parchment (? oiled ?) and building toppings.  I also ordered a 17" wide wood peel.

I love your dough recipe, but so far it has made a grown man cry.  I don't want to give up though.

I wonder how much of the Grande cheese flavor is lost from my Foodsaver vacuum sealing in 1/2 gallon Ball widemouth jars & freezing--5 lbs is just to much to use up quickly enough kept in frig.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 07:22:50 AM by MrPibbs »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1011 on: August 18, 2012, 08:27:30 AM »
MrPibbs,

Using a metal peel with a 16" skin with a hydration of 65%, and even with the liberal use of cornmeal, is tempting fate :-D. For the NY style, and especially in the larger sizes, you really want to use a wooden peel. A pizza screen can be used with a 16" skin but the screen has to be well seasoned and you have to work fast so that the dressed pizza does not have a chance to stick to the screen. You can minimize this possibility by using a sheet of parchment paper, as you noted. Once the pizza sets up in the oven, you can remove the sheet of parchment paper and either let the pizza finish baking on the screen, or on your preheated pizza stone, or alone on an oven rack. If you use parchment paper, you might want to trim it to the size and shape of your screen so that there is no way for the parchment paper to catch fire in the oven.

Until you get the 17" wooden peel, you might want to keep in mind that an amount of dough for a single 16" pizza can be used to make two approximately 12" pizzas. That would allow you to use your present wooden peel.

Eventually, you might also want to lower the hydration level of your dough, especially if you have not had a lot of experience working with high hydration doughs. For newbies, I sometimes suggest starting with a hydration of around 58%, even with the high-gluten flours, and gradually work up to higher hydration levels once experience and confidence are gained in working with wetter doughs.

I'm sure that in good course you will overcome the obstacles that got in your way this time.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1012 on: August 18, 2012, 01:39:01 PM »
Mr Pibbs,
I truly hope this never happens to you again...but if it does a good emergency plan to keep in mind is that turning it into a Calzone is much better than a total disaster/mess... ;)
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline MrPibbs

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1013 on: August 18, 2012, 07:00:28 PM »
Peter, all excellent suggestions.  Bob, thanks for your support too.

I don't know how to toss/spin a pizza, but have watched some YouTube videos that make it look possible.  The draping over back of both hands made into a fist and popping it up and rotating while stretching out actually worked surprisingly well.  Ended up with just a couple BB size holes that I patched with some extra edge dough.

Appreciate the moral support.

Offline MrPibbs

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1014 on: August 19, 2012, 12:31:06 AM »
Peter, as a new member having spent at least 8-10 hours reading a lot of your posts, how do we repay all your kindness help?  The multitude of your posts, indexing, formulas, the priceless information, helping people out, and what must have taken you over a thousand hours of writing is just unbelievable.

Saying thank you seems woefully inadequate.  Really, I'm stunned at the contribution.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1015 on: August 19, 2012, 12:51:32 AM »
Peter, as a new member having spent at least 8-10 hours reading a lot of your posts, how do we repay all your kindness help?  The multitude of your posts, indexing, formulas, the priceless information, helping people out, and what must have taken you over a thousand hours of writing is just unbelievable.

Saying thank you seems woefully inadequate.  Really, I'm stunned at the contribution.
I hear the man has a penchant for Chateau Mouton-Rothschild..circa....well,judge according to your pocketbook..... 8)
J/K....Peter is much too humble of a man to even consider gratuity....(darn it!)
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 12:53:14 AM by Chicago Bob »
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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1016 on: August 20, 2012, 07:58:29 AM »
Peter, as a new member having spent at least 8-10 hours reading a lot of your posts, how do we repay all your kindness help?  The multitude of your posts, indexing, formulas, the priceless information, helping people out, and what must have taken you over a thousand hours of writing is just unbelievable.

Saying thank you seems woefully inadequate.  Really, I'm stunned at the contribution.

MrPibbs,

If I've helped you, just saying thank you is enough. You were very generous with your praise, and I appreciate that.

Peter


Offline Signus

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Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1017 on: August 20, 2012, 09:05:02 PM »
It recently dawned on me that of all the techniques I have used to test out the dough for Tom L.'s NY style pizza dough recipe, there was one that I completely neglected--hand kneading. Also, my focus had been on the larger-sized pizzas that are characteristic of the New York style. I suspect also that in the back of my mind was King Arthur Flour's admonition that a dough made with a high-gluten flour, such as its Sir Lancelot flour, should "be kneaded by a mixer, processor, or bread machine, to fully develop its gluten." The last part of this admonition gave me pause to wonder what would happen if I hand-kneaded a dough using the KA Sir Lancelot flour but did so gently, without a desire to fully develop the gluten (along the lines recommended by Tom L.), and if I just reduced the size of the dough ball so that it would not be a physical chore to knead it. With these thoughts in mind, I attempted an experiment based on these premises.  

For purposes of the hand-kneading experiment, I decided on a dough ball weight that would be sufficient to produce a thin NY style dough with a diameter of about 12 inches. Using the expression W = Pi (i.e., 3.14) x 6 x 6 x 0.10 (the thickness factor for a thin pizza), I calculated a value for W (dough weight) of a bit over 11.30 ounces. I concluded that such a weight would enable one to make a pizza on a standard size pizza stone (or tiles), or on a 12-inch pizza screen. Little else would be required in the way of pizza making equipment (except, perhaps, a calculator ;D).  




  Flour (100%), KASL high-gluten, 6.80 oz. (about 1 5/8 c.)
  Water (63%), 4.30 oz. (about 5/8 c.)
  Salt (1.75%), 0.12 oz. (about 5/8 t.)
  Oil (1%), 0.07 oz. (about 1/2 t.)
  IDY (0.25%), 0.02 oz. (about 3/16 t.)

To hand knead the dough using the above recipe, I had basically two methods to choose from--the countertop method or the bowl method.  I chose the bowl method because it is simple and less messy. However, for those who prefer the countertop method, this is my suggested approach. Combine all of the dry ingredients on a work surface, including the salt, and form into a mound. Make a well in the center of the mound, and gradually add the water to the center of the mound. Using the fingers or a fork, draw the flour mixture into the water. When all the water and flour have been combined, the dough mass should then be kneaded for about a minute or two. If the dough mass seems dry, that's OK and don't be tempted to add more water. It takes time for the flour to be hydrated by the water. Then add the oil and knead that into the dough, for about 2 minutes, and continue kneading for about another 2 or 3 minutes. (If the flour and water were not weighed, it may be necessary to add more of one or the other--a little bit at a time--to get a dough of the correct texture and feel.) The dough will be sufficiently kneaded and ready for refrigeration when it is shaped into a round ball and the outer surface is smooth (i.e., without tears) and shiny. If it isn't, continue kneading, gently, until it is.  

It will be noted that I instructed that the salt be combined with all the other dry ingredients before adding the liquid ingredients. Doing so serves to slow down the oxidation of the flour and preserves the color and certain flavor and color enhancing vitamins (mainly carotenoids) in the flour. However, if an autolyse (rest period) is desired, as described in a previous post in this thread, the salt can be added later in the dough kneading process. However, trying to combine salt with an already-kneaded dough is a lot harder to do by hand than by a machine. The dough will separate and develop tears. However, this is a temporary condition and is overcome by simply kneading the dough until the salt is fully incorporated and the dough is smooth and elastic.  

As indicated above, I chose to use the bowl method to make the dough. I combined all of the dry ingredients in one bowl and put the water into another bowl. I gradually added the flour mixture to the water and stirred it with a spoon until the ingredients started to come together in a rough mass. I then put the dough mass onto a very lightly floured work surface and continued kneading until all of the flour had been taken up into the dough ball. I then added the oil and kneaded that into the dough ball, about a minute or two. I then continued kneading for an additional few minutes until the dough ball was smooth and shiny, with no tears. Once I reached that stage, I flattened the dough ball into a disk (to get the dough to cool faster), oiled the dough, put it into a plastic storage bag, and then into the refrigerator. I left the storage bag open for about 1 hour, to allow any moisture on the dough to evaporate, and then closed the bag for the rest of the duration in the refrigerator.

To be faithful to Tom L.'s NY style dough recipe in making the dough ball as described above, I temperature adjusted the water to achieve a finished dough temperature of 80 degrees F.  Unlike machines like stand mixers, food processors, and even bread machines, hand-kneading adds very little frictional heat to a dough--maybe 1 degree F. So, for a desired finished dough temperature of 80 degrees F, the water temperature will be close to room (and flour) temperature. For the temperature conditions that prevailed in my kitchen, the water temperature I needed was around 79 degrees F. (For those interested in the specific calculation methodology, visit some of my earlier postings in which the methodology is discussed in detail). The finished dough ball had a temperature of 80 degrees F. Its weight was 11.30 ounces (pretty much as calculated).

About 24 hours after I placed the dough ball into the refrigerator, I removed it from the refrigerator and brought it to room temperature, where it remained for about 1 1/4 hours in preparation for shaping and dressing. The dough handled very nicely. It had good extensibility (stretch) and, surprisingly, some elasticity (springback). In fact, the elasticity, which I prefer along with good extensibility (the dough tosses easier), was greater than most of the doughs I have made using machines. I had no trouble whatsoever in shaping the dough.  

The shaped dough was finished and dressed in a simple pepperoni style, using 6-in-1 tomatoes, dried oregano and basil, crushed rep pepper flakes, Hormel pepperoni slices, a combination of deli mozzarella and provolone cheeses, a few squirts of a good olive oil, and freshly-grated Parmigiano-Reggiano cheese and fresh basil (added after baking). The pizza was baked for about 7 minutes on a pizza stone that had been preheated for about 1 hour at about 500-550 degrees F. The pizza was delicious. It had the usual characteristics of a NY style pizza, except that it was smaller. Also, the crust was a little bit crunchier, quite possibly because of its smaller mass.

The photo below shows the finished product (with a slice photo in the following post). The pizza crust did exhibit some bubbling, which surprised me since the dough had been allowed to sit for a little bit over an hour before shaping and dressing. I think it may have been because the dough was a light mass compared with the much larger dough balls I have made previously for NY style pizzas, and colder when it emerged from the refrigerator. Letting the small dough ball sit for another hour might be a good idea (or use docking).

What the above experiment says to me is that it is possible to make a very good small NY style pizza without a major investment in stand mixers, food processors, or bread machines. I do believe, however, that a good kitchen scale is a worthwhile investment--even for the beginning pizza maker--especially for weighing the flour and water, which make up the bulk of the dough and whose relative weights and measurements are important to making good pizza doughs. And, obviously, a pizza stone, tiles or a pizza screen, and a paddle (peel) are prerequisites if pizza making is to become a regular routine. Hand kneading will also teach you a great deal about doughs. Once that has been mastered and you want to move on to even greater pizza challenges, then you can think about fancier gear.

Peter
  


  

I just tried this recipe at home using KA all purpose flower. Now I'm not sure if it was the flower, or a horrible oversight of mine, but it didn't come out at all like I'm used to.

I've only ever attempted deep dish and the Mellow Mushroom clone doughs before now but... for this recipe I just couldn't get a dough ball to form. I doubt checked and I'm sure I used the right amount of flower, and I slowly added it into a bowl of water. However, when the time came to start hand kneading it just kept sticking to my hands. I added more flour trying to get it to come together, and then I added the oil, but nothing helped. It is STILL insanely stick and I can't manage it at all. It's not a ball, its just a moist blob at the bottom of the bowl. Based off that description, can anyone tell me what I probably did wrong? Only thing I can think of is grossly miscalculate the flour.
For the dough formulation itself, I decided on a relatively high hydration percentage, 63%, and an instant dry yeast (IDY) percentage of 0.25%. Using the mathematical techniques and weight-volume conversions as described in previous postings in this thread, I arrived at the following recipe formulation (including baker's percents):

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1018 on: August 21, 2012, 09:12:00 AM »
Signus,

Assuming that you did not make any measurement errors with the flour or water, part of the difficulty you experienced may have been because you used the King Arthur all-purpose flour (KAAP) instead of a high-gluten flour like the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour (KASL). The KASL flour has a rated absorption value of 63%, whereas it is only 60% for the KAAP. You could still have gotten the KAAP to absorb the added water but you would have had to use "stretch and fold" or "slap and fold" techniques as are often used to make bread dough (more on this below).

Some time after I posted the material you quoted, I put together a more detailed list of steps to follow to make a hand kneaded dough. Those steps are set forth in Reply 65 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg63786/topicseen.html#msg63786. In that post, I did not discuss using "stretch and fold" or "slap and fold" techniques since the instructions presumed that the amount of water was essentially correct for the type of flour being used. However, as mentioned above, such techniques can be used when you are trying to force more water into a dough than suggested by the flour type. If you would like to see a video showing such techniques, see the following video starting at about 1:10 in the video. However, I should mention that with the NY style of dough you don't want to overknead or overwork the dough. I cite the video just to show you how a lot of water can be incorporated in a dough that uses a flour that may not have a correspondingly high rated absorption value.

http://www.gourmet.com/magazine/video/2008/03/bertinet_sweetdough.html

Peter

EDIT (4/17/15): Updated the Gourmet/Bertinet video link

Offline Signus

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1019 on: August 21, 2012, 05:57:55 PM »
Signus,

Assuming that you did not make any measurement errors with the flour or water, part of the difficulty you experienced may have been because you used the King Arthur all-purpose flour (KAAP) instead of a high-gluten flour like the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour (KASL). The KASL flour has a rated absorption value of 63%, whereas it is only 60% for the KAAP. You could still have gotten the KAAP to absorb the added water but you would have had to use "stretch and fold" or "slap and fold" techniques as are often used to make bread dough (more on this below).

Some time after I posted the material you quoted, I put together a more detailed list of steps to follow to make a hand kneaded dough. Those steps are set forth in Reply 65 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg63786/topicseen.html#msg63786. In that post, I did not discuss using "stretch and fold" or "slap and fold" techniques since the instructions presumed that the amount of water was essentially correct for the type of flour being used. However, as mentioned above, such techniques can be used when you are trying to force more water into a dough than suggested by the flour type. If you would like to see a video showing such techniques, see http://www.gourmet.com/magazine/video/2008/03/bertinet_sweetdough, starting at about 1:10 in the video. However, I should mention that with the NY style of dough you don't want to overknead or overwork the dough. I cite the video just to show you how a lot of water can be incorporated in a dough that uses a flour that may not have a correspondingly high rated absorption value.

Peter

As always Peter, thank you a lot. I'm going to go out and look for flour that fits better with the recipe. The dough did stick quite like the video you linked. With this info I should be able to make it through.

Offline MrPibbs

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1020 on: August 28, 2012, 03:49:31 AM »
Peter you did help....very much.

I took your advice and made the next batch as two 12" pizzas, made sure they slid on the peel at every stage, and they were so good, if my stomach was big enough, I could have eaten 10 of them !!!   ;D

I did use some of the Grande East Coast blend that I had frozen since my last "debacle," and it did perform & taste just fine.  I like to use my FoodSaver vacuum, and for things like flour, shredded cheese, etc., I either use the old 6-8 Quart polycarbonite plastic FoodSaver (Talia) containers, or just use 1 or 2 qt. Ball widemouth jars and the Foodsaver widemouth attachment to get a nice vacuum seal...so maybe that helped preserve the flavor.

My kitchen oven has a max measured heat of 500°F, so I decided in the interim, to splurge on Willard's 2Stone grill for my 36,000 BTU Weber Spirit E-310 gas grill.  I measured a 710°F temp after 15-20 mins, just off the stone using my Fluke 179 DMM temp probe.  Lucky for me it measures up to 750°F (400°C).  It was very well cooked in about 5-6 mins; some charring for character at about 7 mins.

Offline Signus

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1021 on: October 31, 2012, 02:57:19 PM »
This is a question regarding the recipe I used on the last page:

  Flour (100%), KASL high-gluten, 6.80 oz. (about 1 5/8 c.)
  Water (63%), 4.30 oz. (about 5/8 c.)
  Salt (1.75%), 0.12 oz. (about 5/8 t.)
  Oil (1%), 0.07 oz. (about 1/2 t.)
  IDY (0.25%), 0.02 oz. (about 3/16 t.)

with hand mixing. It was a delicious pizza and came out really well once I got the correct flower. But it was a little overly crispy. It didn't burn, but it didn't bend like most NY pizza I've seen. Is this due to the fact that it is only 12''? (the size of my pizza stone, so can't get around that) or are there any techniques to make it a bit chewier instead of crisp on the bottom? Thanks!

Offline giulio.fabris

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1022 on: November 19, 2012, 03:05:42 PM »
Hi all,

I've been following this great forum for about a year now, learning and focusing mainly on the Pizzarium thread.
I think the pizza resulting from that kind of workflow has become my abnsolute favourite but recently I've started thinking "ok you've been baking this stuff like crazy for a year now, let's try something new!".
The second pizza type which caught my interest was the NY style, which seemed viable for my electric oven.
So after reading up a bit, yesterday I've decided to give this pizza style a try and I wanted to share the results with you.
I have to admit that I was quite worried because I'm used to a strong rising with the usual pizza I make and this dough hadn't risen a lot at all, so I thought it was going to the trash but luckily it was not the case.  :-D
Anyway since I didn't want to waste any ingredients I topped it very lightly with some basic tomato sauce and some fresh caciotta, adding some capers and anchovies once out of the oven.
I would have liked it more browned but maybe it's because I don't have a pizza stone. Or should I cook it more (I cooked it for 10 minutes at 480F).
For a first try I think it was quite good actually!  :) Very different from my usual pies, more pizza-like (less bready).

The dough was a little too much elastic (while spreading it out), any suggestion about how to counter that?

The recipe I used for two pizzas was as follows:

0 flour 385g
water 242g
IDY 1,5 g
salt 7,3g
oil 11,1g
sugar 4,2g

Offline mistachy

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1023 on: January 05, 2013, 07:42:21 AM »
My plan of attack to improve upon my Mexican all-purpose Lehmann NY style dough was fourfold. I would use a basic Lehmann dough recipe (in this case, for a 12-inch test pizza) but (1) I would use all-purpose flour (Mexican), (2) a lower hydration level, (3) vital wheat gluten, and (4) dried dairy whey. I have written before on using vital wheat gluten to increase the protein content of bread flour, and I have written before on using dairy whey to improve the coloration of crusts based on using Italian 00 flours, which tend naturally to be quite light in color. But, until the most recent experiment, I had not before used either vital wheat gluten or dairy whey with all-purpose flour in a Lehmann dough recipe. I will hasten to point out that neither is original with me. Both vital wheat gluten and dairy whey are used from time to time by professional pizza operators to achieve the unique qualities offered by these ingredients. The finished crust will not absolutely mimic one based on using a high-gluten flour, but the crust will be denser, chewier and crunchier than a crust based only on all-purpose flour and with a more pronounced degree of coloration. Both vital wheat gluten and dried dairy whey are relatively inexpensive ingredients and fairly widely available (I found both at Whole Foods).

The recipe I created to perform the most recent experiment was as follows (together with baker’s percents):

100%, All-purpose flour (I used Mexican but U.S. all-purpose flour can be used as well), 7.15 oz. (1 3/4 c. plus 4 t.)
60%, water (temp. adjusted to achieve a finished dough temp. of 80 degrees F), 4.29 oz. (a bit more than 1/2 c.)
1.75%, Salt, 0.13 oz. (a bit more than 5/8 t.)
1%, Oil, 0.07 oz. (a bit less than 1/2 t.)
0.25%, IDY, 0.018 oz. (1/6 t.)
3%, Dairy whey, 0.22 oz. (a bit more than 1 t.)
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105

It will be noted that the above formulation does not reflect the use of vital wheat gluten. For those who are interested in these sorts of things, in order to make the all-purpose flour behave more like high-gluten flour from a protein standpoint (once enhanced with the vital wheat gluten), it is necessary to first determine the difference in protein content between the two flours. Using 14.2% as the benchmark for the high-gluten flour (the protein level of the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour), I subtracted the protein content of the all-purpose flour, 11.5%, from 14.2%. This yielded a difference of 2.7%. Each 1% of vital wheat gluten, by weight of flour, added to the all-purpose flour increases the protein content by 0.6%. In our case, the percent of vital wheat gluten that is required to be added to the all-purpose flour is equal to 2.7 divided by 0.6 (4.5%) times the weight of flour in the above recipe (7.15 oz.), or about 0.32 oz. Using the conversion data on the package of vital wheat gluten, this translates to a bit more than 1 tablespoon of vital wheat gluten. Because the vital wheat gluten is dry, it is also necessary to compensate for this by increasing the amount of water in the recipe by 1.5 times the weight of the vital wheat gluten added. This is about 1 tablespoon. For all intents and purposes, it will be sufficient to just add about a tablespoon or more of vital wheat gluten for a 12-inch size pizza and increase it proportionately for larger sizes. Likewise with the dairy whey. Absolute precision is not necessary. What is especially nice for me is that the vital wheat gluten and dairy whey are lightweight and only small amounts are necessary. This means I can easily bring these ingredients with me to Mexico on future trips.

The dough was prepared in a straightforward manner. The salt was dissolved in the water (at about 74 degrees F), and the flour, yeast, vital wheat gluten and dairy whey were combined and gradually added to the water/salt mixture and mixed at speed 1 of my KitchenAid mixer, for about 2 minutes. The oil was then added and kneaded into the dough, and the kneading continued for about another 6-7 minutes at speed 2. After about 30 seconds of final hand kneading and shaping, the finished dough ball was coated lightly with oil and placed in the refrigerator in a covered container. The finished dough weight was 12.40 ounces, and the finished dough temperature was 80 degrees F. The dough remained in the refrigerator for about 26 hours, following which it was brought to room temperature for about 2 hours in preparation for shaping. The dough handled extremely well, with a nice balance between extensibility (stretchiness) and elasticity (springback). I attribute the good handing qualities of the dough to the addition of the dairy whey. This is a quality I previously noted and reported on when I used dairy whey in experiments with the Italian Caputo 00 flour.

Once the dough was stretched out to 12 inches, it was placed on a 12-inch pizza screen and dressed in a standard pepperoni style. The pizza was baked on the lowest oven rack position of the oven, which had been preheated for about 10 minutes at 500-550 degrees F. No pizza stone was used at all. The total bake time was about 8 minutes. The photos below show the finished product.

The pizza was very good, and one that, after many prior unsuccessful attempts, am prepared to recommend to those who wish to try out a Lehmann dough recipe but do not have access to high-gluten flour. The crust was chewy, crunchy, yet it was light in texture with a nice crumb structure with holes of random sizes. The crust was also considerably darker than those I made in Mexico. There’s no doubt in my mind that the vital wheat gluten and the dairy whey were responsible for the improvements. I don’t want to suggest that the results will be indistinguishable from a crust made with high-gluten flour. What I am prepared to say is that the pizza will be considerably better than one using only all-purpose flour—in just about all respects--to the point where many may not notice the difference. I also hope that fellow member jeancarlo, who recently opened a pizzeria in El Grullo, Mexico will read this post and test out the above recipe (if he can locate supplies of vital wheat gluten and dairy whey) to see if it is suitable for Mexicans craving a NY style pizza.

Peter

I wish i could see the bottom of that crust

Offline alluree

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1024 on: February 21, 2013, 06:09:20 PM »
Any recipe Tom L for 24h fermentation? seeu


 

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