Author Topic: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza  (Read 554068 times)

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Offline Troy T

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #550 on: December 17, 2006, 10:04:09 AM »
Peter,
Could you please explain the cold temperatures and the amount of yeast used.  My house stays 72-74 all year round, no mater what the outside temperature is.  What would you consider the house temperatures vs using higher or normal yeast percentages?  Would not the final dough temperature be the deciding factor since it is a cold ferment?  Also awhile back I read a thread where you discussed a formula to get the correct water temperature for the proper finished dough temperature, can’t seem to find it again, can you please point it out?

Thanks,
Troy


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #551 on: December 17, 2006, 10:37:28 AM »
Troy,

I control water temperature and the amount of yeast I use based on the results I am trying to achieve and also to adjust for seasonal temperature variations. For example, if I want a dough to have a long fermentation, and all else being equal, I usually use colder water, less yeast, or a combination of both. If I want a dough to have a short fermentation, I usually use warmer water, more yeast, or a combination of both. Where I live in Texas, I am subject to seasonal changes in temperature, so as a precautionary measure I will often increase the amount of yeast in a dough formulation in winter, and reduce it in summer. If your room temperature is the same year round, you should be able to use pretty much the same dough formulation year round.

Irrespective of what I do in making my dough, I do pay attention to the finished dough temperature, and do my best to get it in the 70-80 degrees F range. Sometimes it falls a bit out of that range, but not by enough to pose a problem. Close is good enough. I think you will find this article of help in understanding how to control the finished dough temperature of your doughs: http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml. The trickiest part is determining the friction factor for your particular machine since it will vary depending on the machine and model used, dough batch size, machine speeds used, and other related factors. However, once you calculate it for a particular dough batch size, the value is usually close enough to use in a more general way. You can also use a less technical way of determining the proper water temperature based on a series of tests, as noted in the article.

Good luck.

Peter

EDIT (5/15/14): Since the link to the above Lehmann article is no longer operative, see the Wayback Machine link to the same article at http://web.archive.org/web/20070502014430/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml

Offline Troy T

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #552 on: December 20, 2006, 10:34:29 AM »
My first pizza, very good, but far from perfect.
I made my first dough on Sunday using the following recipe;

Flour (100%):          206.35 g  |  7.30 oz | 0.45 lbs
Water (60%):          123.81 g  |  4.40 oz | 0.27 lbs
Oil (1%):                  2.06 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.44 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):           3.61 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.65 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
IDY (0.40%):            0.83 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.27 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Sugar (0%):             0 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0 tsp | 0 tbsp
Total (163.15%):     336.66 g | 11.88 oz | 0.74 lbs | TF = 0.105

All ingredients were measured by weight even the small ones, as I have a ammo reloading scale that measures down to .1 Grains. (1 Gram=15.43 Grains).  I rounded up from the original recipe flour and water weights due to my kitchen scale only weighing in .05 Oz increments.

I mixed the dough in a KA Professional 6 with a C-type dough hook.  The KA mixed the dough in to a ball fairly quickly, the dough was dry so I added about a teaspoon of water.  The mixer did not knead the dough very well at all, I am guessing due to the small batch size, so I kneaded it about 3 minutes by hand.  I could not get the ball smooth as some of the pictures I have seen of finished dough balls.  This one had a few cracks in it…Possibly due to under hydration or under kneading?

After 24 hours in the fridge, I inspected the dough and found it had absorbed the oil and was starting to form a skin.  I applied some more oil and put it back into the fridge. 

Below is a picture of the dough after 48 hours, it had many crevasses and craters in it and again not much like the pictures I have seen in the past for fermented dough. I set the dough on a floured counter with a little on top and covered it with plastic wrap.  It rested 2 hours and had a final temperature of 67 degrees. The dough was very easy to work with.  No other bench flour was needed to from the pizza other than the flour used for resting.

The final results are shown below.  The crust nice and crisp and had a great flavor, the center was somewhat dense and was very chewy.   Over all I thought it was very good for my first attempt.  I did not think it should have been that chewy and I would like the crust to be a little more airy and less dense.  I thought the AP flour made was suppose to make softer crust?  Again I believe it may have had something to due with the kneading or the hydration levels…Any suggestions on this.

Thank you in advance for your comments and suggestions.

Troy

Offline dinks

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #553 on: December 20, 2006, 11:15:03 AM »
TROY-T.
   Good morning to you. Troy, I am responding because you asked for comments & suggestions. One reason you expierenced a dense dough as opposed to a airy dough mass is  because the ratio of salt & yeast is not proper.
Let me explain, You are using .4% yeast & 1.75% salt. That equats to almost 5X the amount of yeast.  As you know Troy, salt does 2 things in a yeasted lean bread dough. It provides flavor & 2nd, it controls the yeast activity & also I might add it helps control bacteria growth as well. When the salt came into contact with the yeast before the yeast began it's activity the salt began to destoy the minimum amount of yeast that you employed. Hence  your dough mass was dense. Troy as you further know, salt requires hydration your hydration amount is proper but the large amount of salt used more than it's share of hydration because of the excess amount. I believe your recipe is a viable pizza recipe. However, humor me Troy, increase the yeast slightly to 5/8ths (.625)% off the flour. Reduce the salt amount to twice the yeast amount in weight. One more thing Troy, please consider adding the salt during the last 4 minutes of mixing. I will tell you why. First of all this is the way the world class bakers do it & for a reason... besides the reasons as aforemention, when salt is added to the dough mass it has a tendency to "TIGHTEN" up the dough mass, hence the why of the MIXER didn't mix the dough very well. There is nothing wrong with your mixer that a proper mixing proceedure cannot help. One more thing, The reason your dough didn't handle well at the beginning is your dough gluten was suffering due to the battle of the salt & yeast.
But Troy as you know as it slowly ferments the gluten begins to become stronger that is part & parcel of the fermentation sequence, hence the why it began to handle better as time went on. Troy I am finished now. I hope you will try my suggestions. Good luck to you my friend & enjoy the rest of the day.

  ~DINKS.

Offline November

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #554 on: December 20, 2006, 11:42:15 AM »
dinks,

Are you sure your 2:1 ratio isn't for ADY?  The ADY equivalent of Troy's posted formula is about 2:1.  It seems like Troy is using a fairly normal amount to me.

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #555 on: December 20, 2006, 03:09:11 PM »
Dinks,

As I have reported before, possibly before you became a member of the forum, on the Lehmann thread I have always tried to be faithful to the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation in my adaptation of that formulation to a home environment. The Lehmann dough formulation is essentially the one posted at the Recipe Bank at the PMQ.com website at http://www.pmq.com/recipe/view_recipe.php?id=52.

From time to time I have deviated from the Lehmann dough formulation and/or the instructions largely for experimental purposes, but by and large I have tried to follow the instructions given by Tom Lehmann in making doughs based on his formulation. For example, the instructions call for adding the salt to the water and adding the yeast (e.g., IDY) to the flour. When I do this, I thoroughly dissolve the salt in the water so that it gets its hydration from the water rather than from fluids from the yeast cells themselves. This is a common approach, and one that pizzanapoletana (Marco) stressed to me and others some time ago as being the proper way to deal with the salt in relation to the yeast. It is also the approach that has been used for time immemorial in Naples with Neapolitan doughs. Since the IDY is dispersed in the flour, it does not get immediate and direct contact with the salt. It might even begin rehydration by virtue of being exposed to moisture in the flour before the flour and yeast are added to the water.

As for the relative quantities of yeast and salt, I have used as little as 0.17% IDY with 1.75% salt. I am sure that on some occasion I used even less yeast. I described one Lehmann experiment I conducted using 0.17% IDY, with very good results, at
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17956.html#msg17956 (Reply 280). I have long theorized that the high percentage of salt in relation to the yeast in the Lehmann dough formulation, along with regulating the finished dough temperature, was intentional--to keep the dough balls from rising too much in the dough boxes or dough trays while under refrigeration. As you know, salt acts as a regulator of the fermentation process and its use at fairly high levels helps restrain volume growth of the dough. Keeping the dough balls compact and slow fermenting seems to be consistent with the dough management and inventory practices commonly used by pizza operators.

Troy should by all means try using more yeast as you suggest, or even less salt, although I don’t deem the present ratio to be out of order based on my experimentation with the Lehmann dough formulation. I once by mistake tripled the recited amount of IDY in the basic Lehmann dough formulation and got very good results. So I know that using more yeast works. Troy might also try adding the salt late in the dough making process, as you also suggest. I have done this on occasion when using the classic Professor Calvel autolyse method that you some time ago described to me. I have even reported on my results from doing this elsewhere in this thread. Many of our members are very fond of using autolyse of similar rest periods when making their doughs, including the Lehmann doughs, so it is clearly an option that Troy might want to consider once he feels he is ready to tackle that aspect of his dough preparation.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #556 on: December 20, 2006, 04:30:58 PM »
Troy,

By and large, I think your maiden effort with the Lehmann dough formulation turned out quite well. This leads me to believe that using bread flour may be something you may want to consider in a future effort.

I also think you put your finger on some of the causes of the stiffness in the dough. Looking at your photos, the crevices and cracks in your dough are typical of those often found in doughs that are under-hydrated, that is, don’t contain enough water in relation to the amount of flour. If that was the problem in your case, then the simple solution is to just increase the amount of water. To modify the Lehmann dough formulation to achieve this objective, you can visit the Lehmann dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html and reenter the baker’s percents you last used but change the hydration percent to something above the 60% you used. Even then, you might find that you need more water to get the desired finished dough consistency and feel at the end of the dough making process.

Note also that at this time of year, doughs can also turn out a bit drier because of room temperature and humidity factors. Tom Lehmann discussed this aspect of dough making in a PMQ article at http://www.pmq.com/mag/2006march/lehmann.php. Remember also that even when one accurately measures out ingredients, there is frequently a need to make minor adjustments in the mixer bowl. BTW, I wouldn’t become too preoccupied with trying to weigh out the lightweight ingredients like salt, yeast and oil (and sugar, if used). I, too, have a special scale for weighing out small quantities of lightweight ingredients but I have discovered that the volume measurements recited in the Lehmann data are quite accurate. Weighing out the flour and water should be sufficient for your purposes.

If you’d like, you can also alter the Lehmann dough formulation to produce a smaller dough ball weight that, when used to make the same size pizza you made, can have a thinner finished crust. The easy way to do this using the Lehmann tool is to use a smaller thickness factor. For example, you might try using 0.095-0.10. I can't promise you that the crust will be less chewy. That is a crust characteristic that is common with the Lehmann NY style. Using a higher protein flour usually increases the chewiness of the crust. But it may not be as noticeable if you use a thinner crust.

Like you, I have difficulties making small amounts of dough using my KitchenAid stand mixer with the C-hook. For this reason, I have been experimenting lately with alternative approaches to prepare my pizza doughs (including Lehmann doughs), which I have discussed at this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33251.html#msg33251. I am not proposing that you abandon your current approach in favor of the one I have been testing, but there are some simple measures that you can take that I think will improve the hydration and quality of your dough. For example, using sifted flour and the whisk and flat beater attachments of your KitchenAid mixer can improve the handling qualities of the dough, even at high hydration levels. I discovered also that I can dispense with the flat beater attachment and finish the kneading process by hand, in the bowl and on the work surface. If someone doesn't have a stand mixer, the action of the whisk can be replaced by an electric hand mixer operated at low speed.

Peter

EDIT (3/22/13): For the Wayback Machine link to the Lehmann PMQ article, see http://web.archive.org/web/20110824144931/http://pmq.com/mag/2006march/lehmann.php
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 11:32:47 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline chiguy

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #557 on: December 20, 2006, 06:54:05 PM »
 Troy t,
The cracks you see in the dough ball are caused by the lack of kneading.  A 3 minutes hand knead will not be enough to develop a uniform gluten structure. The lack of gluten structure is also when you see bubbles form in the dough ball.
 As lehmann has explained the dough should be mixed until it has a smooth satin appearance. I think you have done a nice job but you will need too increase the mix time or the hand knead time at the very least 5-10 minutes. Also it may help to incorporate a bowl rest/autolyse in the mixing process.     Chiguy

Offline joebot

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #558 on: December 21, 2006, 08:29:27 PM »
Ok, little problem with lehmanns style last weekend. I made up 2 -12 inch - Lehmann recipe for two 12-inch pizzas
Flour (100%), KASL high-gluten, 14.30 oz. (3 c. plus 3 T. plus 1 t.)
Water (63%), 9.01 oz. (1 1/8 c.)
Salt (1.75%), 0.25 oz. (a bit over 1 1/4 t.)
Oil (1%), 0.14 oz. (7/8 t.)
IDY (0.25%), 0.04 oz. (a bit over 1/3 t.)
Total dough ball weight = 23.74 oz.
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105
 
the dough looked fine and was mixed for about 10 minutes on 2nd speed, i included a 20 min autolyse and the dough rested in the fridge  for 24 hours before being taken out and left to warm for 2 hours. When I tried to handle the dough it was sticky, soupy and tried to get away from me - it stretched out and was very slack. So did I over work the dough,under work it or what? The dough ball was about 78° when it went in the fridge, and I used the method that Pete-zza posted for mixing in the thread fo the NY Lehmann style pizzas. The dough used was HG from Eagle mills that I get from a baker down the street.
 Thanks for any help or ideas.

 
 Joe   


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #559 on: December 21, 2006, 09:34:40 PM »
Joe,

Did you use weight or volume measurements and, if volume measurements were used, how did you measure out the flour and water using your measuring cups? I used to convert weight measurements of flour to volume measurements as an accommodation to those who did not use scales but I was subsequently informed that I tend to have a light hand in making those types of conversions. Hence, I have stopped the practice of making those conversions. Instead, one would be better advised to use member November's mass/volume tool at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/.

Apart from the above possibility, and assuming that you did not make an error in measuring out the flour and water, which can easily happen if volume measurements were used, it is possible that your hydration level was too high in relation to the flour you used. From what I have been able to determine, the Eagle Mills flour is a ConAgra bread flour made from hard white wheat. It is intended for artisan type breads, and pizza dough is not among the specified applications listed at the ConAgra website. Most high-gluten flours are made of hard red spring wheat. Like the KASL, ConAgra's high-gluten flours are made from hard red spring wheat and are specified for use in making pizza doughs and other bread products. I don't know the absorption rate of the Eagle Mills flour but I would guess that it is maybe a few percent lower than the 63% hydration you used. Next time I would lower the hydration percent if you plan to continue to use the Eagle Mills flour. If you use the Lehmann dough calculator you should be able to recalculate the ingredient quantities so that the total dough weight remains the same. 

You also indicated that you kneaded the dough at speed 2 for ten minutes and that the finished dough temperature was 78 degrees F. It's possible that the dough fermented at a faster rate because of the elevated finished dough temperature but if you put the dough promptly into the refrigerator it should have held up well enough to be workable in normal fashion after 24 hours. Over time I have gravitated toward shorter overall knead times at lower mixer speeds but I don't think what you did was the source of the problem you experienced.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 11:37:33 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline joebot

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #560 on: December 22, 2006, 07:00:44 AM »
Joe,

Did you use weight or volume measurements and, if volume measurements were used, how did you measure out the flour and water using your measuring cups? I used to convert weight measurements of flour to volume measurements as an accommodation to those who did not use scales but I was subsequently informed that I tend to have a light hand in making those types of conversions. Hence, I have stopped the practice of making those conversions. Instead, one would be better advised to use member November's mass/volume tool at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/.

Apart from the above possibility, and assuming that you did not make an error in measuring out the flour and water, which can easily happen if volume measurements were used, it is possible that your hydration level was too high in relation to the flour you used. From what I have been able to determine, the Eagle Mills flour is a ConAgra bread flour made from hard white wheat. It is intended for artisan type breads, and pizza dough is not among the specified applications listed at the ConAgra website. Most high-gluten flours are made of hard red spring wheat. Like the KASL, ConAgra's high-gluten flours are made from hard red spring wheat and are specified for use in making pizza doughs and other bread products. I don't know the absorption rate of the Eagle Mills flour but I would guess that it is maybe a few percent lower than the 63% hydration you used. Next time I would lower the hydration percent if you plan to continue to use the Eagle Mills flour. If you use the Lehmann dough calculator you should be able to recalculate the ingredient quantities so that the total dough weight remains the same. 

You also indicated that you kneaded the dough at speed 2 for ten minutes and that the finished dough temperature was 78 degrees F. It's possible that the dough fermented at a faster rate because of the elevated finished dough temperature but if you put the dough promptly into the refrigerator it should have held up well enough to be workable in normal fashion after 24 hours. Over time I have gravitated toward shorter overall knead times at lower mixer speeds but I don't think what you did was the source of the problem you experienced.

Peter


Oops yea, I finally got a 11 lb digital scale a few weeks ago, I weighed the water and the flour and used tsps/Tbsps, for the yeast and salt etc. So do you think that I'd be better off just using KABF for making any of the NY style doughs instead of the other stuff?
Thanks for the help Pete!
 
  Joe   
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 11:38:41 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #561 on: December 22, 2006, 09:12:43 AM »
Joe,

It's up to you whether you should switch to the KABF, but until you get a better fix on the problem I think I would just reformulate the Lehmann dough recipe using less water (lower hydration percent) but still using your Eagle Mills flour. You might also take a look at this post: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563 (Reply 8). That post describes the way I was using my KitchenAid mixer before I started experimenting with alternative mixing methods recently. The post is silent on mix/knead times because those times vary depending on dough batch size, among other factors. The key thing is to strive to get the finished dough characteristics described in the post.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #562 on: December 24, 2006, 03:51:31 PM »
For those Lehmann dough fans who do not have a stand mixer but have an electric hand mixer, a sieve (or flour sifter), and don't mind doing a few minutes of hand kneading, I recently achieved very good results using just those two implements (plus a bowl and spoon). Details and photos are presented at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg36489.html#msg36489 (Reply 30).

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #563 on: January 06, 2007, 11:00:00 AM »
Today, as part of my continuing experiments using the new KitchenAid dough making method to make Lehmann NY style pizzas (among others), I described the latest experiment in which I used non-rehydrated active dry yeast (ADY). The post in which the results are presented is at Reply 35 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg37060.html#msg37060. Apart from using the new method, the sequencing of ingredients was as I normally use with a Lehmann dough but for the addition of the (non-rehydrated) ADY at the end of the dough making process rather than in hydrated form at the beginning of the process. The dough lasted around 6 1/3 days before using, with very good results. A representative photo is shown below.

Peter

Offline turbosundance

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #564 on: January 06, 2007, 11:50:19 AM »
Speaking of KitchenAids, I just recently modified my old bread maker so that I could turn the kneading paddle on and off with a switch.  I'm planning to use this machine to knead my dough in the future.  When I fist started making pizza dough I used to use the bread maker but was never vewry good .  The bread maker would always warm the dough I could never control when it would knead.  It always seemed to overknead the dough and it rose way too quickly.

Anyway, do you think that my modified bread machine would make a good kitchen aid substitute? 
Ryan

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #565 on: January 06, 2007, 04:12:12 PM »
turbosundance,

The basic Lehmann dough recipe is a commercial recipe that is intended to be used to make dough that is slightly underkneaded and, ideally, has a finished dough temperature when it goes into the cooler of 80-85 degrees F (the corresponding number for a home refrigerator is between 75-80 degree F, but favoring the 75 degree number).

As I see it, a shortcoming of many bread makers is that they have pre-heat cycles and knead the dough too long and, in the process, create a lot of heat such that the finished dough temperature can far exceed the recommended range. That isn’t necessarily fatal but it can shorten the useful life of the dough and the finished crust can be soft and breadlike rather than chewy with “tooth” to it. That said, there are bread makers that apparently have a special pizza dough cycle (although I have never investigated what it really is), and in some machines the heat can be turned off during kneading. My bread maker (a Zojirushi) does not have either feature. So, to create a dough that was slightly underkneaded and with a finished dough temperature in the desired range, I had to take measures to reduce the amount of kneading and reduce the heat. In case you are interested, I discussed the measures I took at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5486.html#msg5486 (Reply 51) and at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17113.html#msg17113 (Reply 260). Maybe some of these measures will work in your case, or perhaps they may not be necessary at all. You will have to experiment with your bread machine to see whether the results require taking measures such as I took with my machine.

Peter

Offline turbosundance

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #566 on: January 06, 2007, 06:46:55 PM »
I actually used the machine to make some dough this morning.  It worked great.  MY bread makekr doesn't have a pizza dough cycle so it would always make finished dough temperature way too high and it would over knead if I forgot about it.  It'a an old breadmaker that I never use for anything else other than making pizza dough so I decided to make some changes.  I ripped out all the controls and the heating element.  Now I just have a switch on the top of the machien that turns on the paddle.  I  just have to make sure I time the dough and dont over knead it.
Ryan


Offline November

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #567 on: January 06, 2007, 10:16:48 PM »
Converted breadmakers can certainly be very good for kneading pizza dough.  After all, they're built specialized for kneading dough.  Having control over the temperature and amount of kneading is all you need.

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Offline Troy T

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #568 on: January 12, 2007, 12:21:11 PM »
Thanks everyone for the responses. 
I finally got a chance to give this another try this week.  I used KA Bread flour this time, and changed the hydration to the standard 63%.  I was able to make a height adjustment to my KA mixer to get the C-hook closer to the bowl.  It did good job this time at kneading this small 12” batch.  The final dough temperature was 77 had no cracks in it like last time. I did make one mistake I used about 1/2 -3/4 tsp more oil then what was called for.  This will teach me not to measure ingredients over the bowl.   The one problem I had was when I removed the dough from the fridge 49 hours later it raised about 25% and had a couple of large bubbles on top, lots of small ones on bottom and was stuck to the bowl.  I did coat the bowl with oil and I also coated my hands with oil and rubbed it all over the ball before placing it in the bowl. What would cause this? I did check my fridge temperature and it is 34 (I like my beer very cold).  Is this temperature to low? Any suggestions on this?

I was skeptical at first of using the bread flour because when I used the AP flour is turned out very chewy and did not want it any chewier.  How ever with the problems encountered, the crust was not that chewy at all, not only was this the best crust I have ever made but was one of the best I ever had!   I can not compare it to anything due to the fact I have never had a NY style Pizza before.  Would the extra oil I mistakenly added have anything to do with the crust chew? The dough was not greasy at all.

Sorry no pictures this time, this pizza was made while watching the BCS Bowl.

Troy

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #569 on: January 12, 2007, 08:24:40 PM »
Troy,

Maybe my memory is faulty, but I can't recall ever having bubbles form on a Lehmann dough within a two-day period. Your refrigerator is on the cool side as home refrigerators go, but commercial coolers operate at similar temperatures without a problem. And your finished dough temperature was not out of whack. Usually bubbles form in the surface of the dough because of overfermentation, or excessive yeast, or something like that. But 49 hours isn't out of line, and especially at the finished dough temperature you achieved and the cool refrigerator compartment where you kept your dough.

The amount of oil you used shouldn't have been a problem. It was too little to produce any really noticeable effects on the pizza. It might have contributed a bit of tenderness to the crust but I don't think that adding an additional 1/2-3/4 t. would have had a significant impact.

When a dough sticks to its container, it is sometimes due to the release of water from the dough and the dough becoming slack and soft. But that usually occurs because of overfermentation. You would know because the dough becomes very extensible and hard to handle. You didn't mention anything along those lines, so I am at a loss to explain what happened in your case.

Peter

Offline SemperFi

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #570 on: January 19, 2007, 04:34:26 PM »
Well,

I finally got my scale today, and Lordy, my dough balls are way too heavy.  What should weigh in at 11.31oz is topping the scales at 21+.  I least now I know why my 12" pizzas seem to be too dough heavy.  But I do wonder, how much cheese (weight wise) is considered correct for a 12" pie?  And if I was going to dress the pie with other toppings, is there a comfortable range to shoot for to not over top the pie.  I know its subjective, but was wondering if anyone has input.

Adam
Adam

Offline November

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #571 on: January 19, 2007, 04:48:16 PM »
Adam,

It is rather subjective, but it's also important as you mentioned not to overdress your pizza.  I use 280g for a 14" with two toppings, so if I were making a 12" with two toppings, I would use around 194g.

- red.november

Offline SemperFi

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #572 on: January 19, 2007, 04:50:06 PM »
Thank you November,

one last question, how about sauce?  I know that NY style is on the drier side.  Adam
Adam

Offline November

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #573 on: January 19, 2007, 05:02:14 PM »
Adam,

I think that's even more subjective.  It depends a lot on the consistency of the sauce too.  If it's a thick sauce, it may be hard to spread out very thin.  If it's a thin sauce, you really have no choice but to spread it thin.  I use one medium ladle's worth (74 cc) or 78 g of sauce, so for a 12" I would use around 51 cc or 54 g.  I don't use these proportions to follow any particular style though.  It's just what I came up with for various reasons.

- red.november

EDIT: thick/thin
« Last Edit: January 19, 2007, 05:05:05 PM by November »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #574 on: January 19, 2007, 05:49:40 PM »
Adam,

As November has indicated, there are no hard and fast rules on how much cheese (or sauce) to use, although pizza operators pay much closer attention to the amount of cheese to use because it is much more expensive than their sauces. The cheese question came up recently at the PMQ Think Tank and the answers that several pizza operators gave for the 12” pizza size ranged from 5 ounces to 8-9 ounces. Some professionals use the so-called Burke portioning guide to determine how to portion cheese, sauce and toppings on pizzas, based on whether you have a light, moderate or heavy hand. You can see an abbreviated chart on the right hand side of this page: http://www.bellissimofoods.com/pdfs/bb_0504_f.pdf. To get the complete Burke guide, it can be downloaded from the pizzamarketplace website at http://www.pizzamarketplace.com/specialpub.php?i=18. You will have to fill in a form to get the guide. I haven’t seen the latest version of the Burke guide, but please note that the earlier version erroneously gave portions for pepperoni in ounces rather than in pieces (slices), at page 23.

I also found that a Lehmann dough can hold a fair amount of toppings without succumbing to the weight. I noted this characteristic in the last paragraph of this post earlier in this thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg6541.html#msg6541 (Reply 82).

Peter


 

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