Author Topic: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza  (Read 554717 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #650 on: March 28, 2008, 06:41:54 AM »
Peter & Scott, You guys must have really big ovens.

Bryan,

The 18" screen just about fits in my oven with the door closed. The star of this pizza is the toppings, although the size of the pizza itself is impressive. You can use just about any of the versions of the Lehmann dough formulation. You should also be able to use your standard dough formulation of Hecker's, water, salt and yeast and scale it to whatever size you want. I used the 18" screen because the largest pizza my stone can handle is 14". But the combination of the screen and stone works very well to make the larger size. The screen also makes it easy to dress the pizza and not worry about whether you will be able to safely load it into the oven (you'd hate to lose the pizza after all of the work and expense). Just to be on the safe side, and because of the thinness of the skin, I lightly sprayed the screen with some oil spray (canola in my case).

Peter


Offline sankoff

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #651 on: May 27, 2008, 11:43:57 AM »
Peter,

my name is Javier, iīm from Spain. (sorry for my english)
first of all, iīm glad to be part of this community and thanks to you and all members for give me a chance to make good quality pizzas at home.

I always make your hand-kneaded version of Tom Lehmannīs dough recipe: (Reply # 68, page 4) (as a new member, i am not allowed to post messages containing hyperlinks...) :(
because i havenīt bread machine, mixers,... only my hands ;-)

Have a few questions for you....
1- After two or three days into the refrigerator, the dough continue rising... is that normal?
2- Here in Spain, canīt find easily high-gluten flour... so i use high-protein flour.... is that ok?
3- Sometimes, the dough tends to shrink, only sometimes.... i donīt know why.. (I remove it from the refrigerator and bring it to room temperature, where it remained for about 1 1/4 hours)
4- To make two doughs at the same time, i duplicate all of the ingredients, and cut the final ball obtaining two small doughs before removing them into the refrigerator.... is that ok?

thanks :pizza: :pizza: :pizza: :pizza: :pizza:
« Last Edit: May 27, 2008, 01:42:14 PM by sankoff »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #652 on: May 27, 2008, 03:57:08 PM »
Javier,

Your English is fine. This is the link you mentioned: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5674.html#msg5674 (Reply 68). When you reach five posts, you will be able to post links.

I will try to answer your questions in the order you presented them.

1) It is not uncommon for the Lehmann dough to continue to rise after two or three days although the expansion of the dough will slow down with time. The extent of the rise of the dough will depend mostly on the temperature of the dough and the amount of yeast used (I assume you used the amount called for in the Lehmann recipe). In general, the dough will have a tendency to expand more in warm weather than in cold weather. The temperature of your refrigerator will also affect the rate and extent of the expansion of the dough. To keep the dough from rising too much, you can use cold water when making the dough. 

2) I am not familiar with flours available to you in Spain, but if your high-protein flour is like what we call "bread" flour in the U.S., with a protein level of around 12-13%, you should be fine. In fact, many of our members prefer bread flour over high-gluten flour for the Lehmann dough recipe. Some members even prefer using all-purpose flour with the Lehmann recipe. You will want to be sure that you have the correct flour, however. In some places, even outside of the U.S., people sometimes confuse vital wheat gluten for pizza flour. Vital wheat gluten can be added to other flours, but it cannot be used all by itself to make pizza dough. 

3) On occasion, the Lehmann dough will shrink a bit while shaping and stretching the dough ball out to the final desired size. That is quite normal, especially if the dough is not warmed up enough or it is a bit underfermented (not quite "old" enough). If the shrinkage is because the dough has not warmed up enough, I just give it more warmup time. If the shrinkage is because the dough has not fully fermented, I wait a couple of minutes to allow the gluten to relax, and stretch the dough back out again to the final desired size. It is usually unnecessary to have to do this more than once or twice, but it can happen. Just let the dough rest, and try again.

4) The way you made one large dough ball and divided it into two small ones is fine. In fact, I think that is the better method for a cold-fermented (refrigerated) dough like the Lehmann dough.

I wish you continued good success.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 27, 2008, 04:11:48 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline sankoff

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #653 on: May 27, 2008, 05:35:45 PM »
Peter,

Thank you for your answers...

The flour i use is 13.10% protein level.... too much?

if there is, also i can make the doug with all-purpose flour.

PD: thanks for your comment about my english.... i will travel to U.S. with friends for a "coast to coast" this summer  ;D ;D
« Last Edit: May 27, 2008, 05:39:02 PM by sankoff »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #654 on: May 27, 2008, 06:01:37 PM »
The flour i use is 13.10% protein level.... too much?
...PD: thanks for your comment about my english.... i will travel to U.S. with friends for a "coast to coast" this summer  ;D ;D

Javier,

That flour should work just fine. In the U.S,. high-gluten flour has a protein content of around 14-14.2%; a good bread flour has around 12.7%. So you are positioned right between these two numbers. In fact, some millers would refer to your flour as a "medium high-gluten" flour.

When you are in the U.S., you should definitely try out a few NY style pizza places. They can be found across the U.S. but, as you might suspect, the most and best ones will be in the NYC area, where you will find both NY "street" style pizzas (often sold by the slice) and the thinner NY "elite" style pizzas. If your plans call for being in NYC, you might do some searching on the forum before you leave for the U.S. to get names of the best and most popular places. You should also sample other styles of pizza that are popular in different parts of the U.S.

Peter

Offline sankoff

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #655 on: May 28, 2008, 04:55:18 AM »
When you are in the U.S., you should definitely try out a few NY style pizza places.

of course i will.... ;D

peter, only one more question:
making lehmannīs recipe, how many days with the dough into the refrigerator do you think are best?? may i wait until the end of rising progress (3 or 4 days)??

thank you.
i will post pics of my pizzas :chef:

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #656 on: May 28, 2008, 08:22:56 AM »
peter, only one more question:
making lehmannīs recipe, how many days with the dough into the refrigerator do you think are best?? may i wait until the end of rising progress (3 or 4 days)??

Javier,

If you make a normal Lehmann style dough following the usual instructions, three or four days is pushing it a bit, especially if you didn't add any sugar to the dough to keep the yeast well fed. The only way to know for sure in your case is to test the dough for your particular conditions and see what happens. I have made Lehmann doughs that have lasted a lot longer than three or four days but I had to take special steps not normally used with a Lehmann dough to get the dough to last that long.

Peter

Offline Fingerstyle

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #657 on: June 15, 2008, 12:23:21 PM »
Peter,

Thank you so much for the amazing research and careful documentation you've shared here. Your posts are a treasure trove of helpful information. Your summary roadmap is very handy too!

I've been pretty happy with  JerryMac's 1 day, but found myself wanting more robust crust flavor. So, I was intrigued with your post #175 and gave it a try yesterday. I deviated by doubling the recipe, substituting Giusto's Unbleached Ultimate Performer, risen with Goldrush sourdough  rye preferment.

The high dough volume made proper mixing problematic - it took a lot of pulsing to arrive at a ball, perhaps building too much gluten prior to autolyse. Next time I will stick with your original quantities and make two batches.

After the autolyse in the (KA) food processor bowl, the dough volume/consistency was no longer pulse-able so I moved ingredients over to the KA mixer. Adding the oil eased hook kneading a bit. After pushing it down off the hook several times, I hand kneaded for a few minutes. Final dough temp was 72 deg. F.

To my surprise/delight, ten hours later the dough had nearly tripled in volume.  I portioned four  pieces. The first I stretched very unevenly, and had several thin areas and tears. I figured I'd  just be more careful with the others and reball and try the first again later. The dough was surprisingly elastic. With a short rest at ~10" diameter, stretching it into a 13" "round" was facilitated (the advantage of round container ball storage again clearly demonstrated) .

Anticipating a very extensible dough I conclude I over-kneaded, as I found the dough  somewhat  difficult to handle. That notwithstanding, the finished pies, topped with drained, pulsed Muir Glen tomato, Fresh mozz, and pepperoni were quite good. Moderate spring, nice tooth too. Baked at 650 in a Villa Roma LBE.

PS by the time I finished baking the third pie the reformed ball 1 "looked" ready to cooperate - it wasn't. Rather than refire and bake a one-off later, I reluctantly rolled it, To my relief it too developed a cornice, but not as high as the hand formed. I forgot to use the rubber bands on the roller trick (to obtain an even thickness) though my eyeballing roll worked fine.

I think this recipe is a great "one-day" and the timing works much better for me than does the JerryMac. I have to admit though, the flavor developed in a 3 day fridge ferment is still more to my liking.

Thank you again! Looking forward to more of your great posts.

Vic
"... I say we ride some gravity." - Patrick Rizzo

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #658 on: June 15, 2008, 01:12:36 PM »
Vic,

I'm glad to hear that you were able to get good results with the dough formulation I posted at Reply 175 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg12748.html#msg12748. That was a highly unusual dough formulation because it was based on using a cold, unrefreshed starter right out of the refrigerator and also cold water to make the "preferment" dough to use the next day after an overnight room temperature fermentation. No doubt my starter was not as active as it should have been, which perhaps accounted for the low rise of the finished dough ball. I might add that these days I would use the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html to do all of the number crunching. At the time I posted Reply 175, the tool did not even exist. It wasn't even a gleam in my eye. Today, I almost can't function without the different tools that now exist at the forum at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_tools.html, including the Lehmann dough calculating tool that was named in honor of Tom Lehmann, and also member November's creative tools at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/. I can now do things that I couldn't have done before, and much more quickly and with greater confidence in my results.

You indicated that you reworked one or more of the dough balls before shaping and stretching. That is something that I do not advocate that people do because it will cause the gluten matrix to tighten up and cause the dough to become overly elastic and prone to the formation of tears and thin spots. If you allow the dough balls to relax, the gluten structure will eventually soften up and enable the dough to be usable but it can sometimes take hours for this to happen and, even then, the dough may not be of as high a quality as a dough that is gently handled and not reworked or re-kneaded. Subjecting the "bucky" dough to a small amount of heat, as in a preheated oven at around 100-125 degrees F, will help speed up the process of making the gluten and dough more manageable.

The Lehmann thread was a labor of love, and it taught me a good part of what I know about pizza making. That has allowed me to speak from personal experience rather than from what I might have read somewhere along the way. I think my diagnostic, predictive, and design skills also got better from all the experiments I conducted on the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation that started the whole thread.

Peter

« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 11:33:01 AM by Pete-zza »


Offline Fingerstyle

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #659 on: June 15, 2008, 03:53:15 PM »
Peter,

My next iteration of your post #175 dough will use the preferment tool, FP-sized small batches, and final ball proof in individual round containers.

My hat's off to you and Mike for the calculators. I've been using both Lehmann and Preferment tools with great results.  As you suggested, I used the preferment tool for a whole wheat Leahy no-knead formulation. Works great. I'm on the fifth batch now, each better than the previous, albeit no longer "no-knead".

I'm going to try to go back to using a food processor for pizza dough. I used the Cuisinart FP exclusively years ago (before I got a KA Pro6 mixer for high capacity / heavy bread dough) and was always surprised at the dough quality and quick process time. I've got a larger KA FP now, and since it doesn't slice well (main reason I bought it)  :-[ it will be good to get some use of the larger work bowl.

Thanks again,

Vic
"... I say we ride some gravity." - Patrick Rizzo

Offline petesopizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #660 on: June 25, 2008, 12:17:10 PM »
Latest this AM

2.5 tbs gluten
2 3/4 cups flour (King Arthur AP)
1.5 tsp salt
1 tsp idy
1 1/4cup H2O

Mixed H20 with 1/4 of the flour, salt, yeast, gluten mix (all sifted together)
20 Minute Autolyse

"Added Remainder of flour mix"

10 minute #1 speed kitchen aid mix had to add 1/4 c more flour
5 more minutes on #2
Formed balls oiled and threw in fridge for 2 day cold ferment
« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 12:25:35 PM by petesopizza »
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Offline petesopizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #661 on: June 25, 2008, 12:21:23 PM »
Does anyone make a S hook attachment for the Kitchen Aid mixer?
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Offline petesopizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #662 on: June 26, 2008, 11:53:49 AM »
24 hours

very active cold fermentation I popped a few bubbles
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Offline pcampbell

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #663 on: June 27, 2008, 05:20:03 PM »
Does anyone make a S hook attachment for the Kitchen Aid mixer?

Which KitchenAid mixer? It won't fit on anything "below" a Pro 5 Plus.  Er Villa Roma put it on one mixer in between (I believe a model that is no longer solder).  It will not fit (length wise) on the Artisan mixer.
Patrick

Offline petesopizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #664 on: July 29, 2008, 08:15:06 PM »
What are the leading causes of elasticity (spring  back)? My dough always seems to want to return to ball form :)

My Latest:
Flour 3 1/2 Cups  KAAP
H2O 1 1/3 Cups
IDY 1 1/2 Tsp
Kosher Salt 3/4 Tsp 

Using Kitchen-Aid mixer
Mix 2c flour and all the water and mix on 1 for 5 minutes
Let sit for 20 minutes
Mix the remaining flour and yeast mix for 1 minute on 1
Add salt and mix for 20 minutes on 1

Throw in the fridge for 24 hours then pull an hour before cooking

Tastes great I just wish I could solve the elasticity problem
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Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #665 on: July 29, 2008, 09:55:39 PM »
Petes,  try just kneading less,  a lot less. maybe 5 and 5. -marc

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #666 on: July 29, 2008, 11:18:27 PM »
petesopizza,

I believe Marc is correct and that the problem is overkneading of the dough. This matter has been discussed before on the forum on several occasions, even in this thread, but you may want to take a look at this post and the links referenced therein: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5083.msg43133.html#msg43133 (Reply 6).

Peter


Offline petesopizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #667 on: July 29, 2008, 11:33:56 PM »
The problem is that with shorter knead times the dough tears when I pull off a piece and test it while kneading (like in the leahmann video)
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #668 on: July 29, 2008, 11:49:54 PM »
The problem is that with shorter knead times the dough tears when I pull off a piece and test it while kneading (like in the leahmann video)

petesopizza,

I recently reminded another member that the Lehmann video is with respect to a dough made using a commercial mixer. Our standard KitchenAid stand mixers are no match for commercial mixers and our doughs will not be anywhere as good as those that are made using commercial mixers. So, while it may be possible to develop a simple home test to check the dough in the bowl, I do not bother. I take the dough out of the bowl as soon as it is smooth but a bit tacky. Sometimes the dough will have a cottage cheese look at the outer surface but as Evelyne Slomon mentioned in the post referenced in my last reply, that is quite normal.

Peter

Offline thatonegirl

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #669 on: August 20, 2008, 12:53:45 AM »
Has anyone else out there tried this formula with Bread Flour rather than the high gluten flour? I decided to try Bread Flour and I like it so much better! It had a crispier outside and a soft and chewy inside...just what I've been looking for! This has become mine and my husband's favorite pizza thus far!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #670 on: August 20, 2008, 10:40:45 AM »
Has anyone else out there tried this formula with Bread Flour rather than the high gluten flour? I decided to try Bread Flour and I like it so much better! It had a crispier outside and a soft and chewy inside...just what I've been looking for! This has become mine and my husband's favorite pizza thus far!

thatonegirl,

There are many members, including me, who have practiced the basic Lehmann NY style dough recipe using bread flour instead of high-gluten flour. In fact, many prefer the use of bread flour over high-gluten flour for this recipe. Also, if you go back into history before high-gluten flours became popular for pizza dough, the flour that the old masters used in New York City was either all-purpose flour or bread flour (Evelyne Slomon's popular book, The Pizza Book, published in 1984, chronicles the work of the early masters with the NY style). The Lehmann recipe is actually quite close to what the old masters used but updated to use dry yeast instead of fresh yeast, high-gluten flour instead of the earlier flours, and a bit of oil. The dough preparation and management methods were also altered to adapt the recipe to commercial applications by allowing cold fermentation, rather than a room-temperature fermentation, which is what the old masters used before refrigerators were invented and became commercially available. I think it is the classic nature of the Lehmann recipe that appeals to our members. Also, it is very versatile, as you can see from the Lehmann Roadmap at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1453.msg13193.html#msg13193. The creation and availability of the Lehmann dough calculating tool (named in honor of Tom Lehmann and his recipe) at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html also opened up new opportunities for users to make all kinds of pizzas based on the basic recipe. That tool alone significantly increased the popularity of the Lehmann recipe.

In my case, I use the King Arthur bread flour because of its slightly higher protein content (12.7%) over competing brands. Also, its absorption rate, 62% +/- 2%, is close enough to the absorption rate of high-gluten flour (around 63%) such that it can be substituted for the high-gluten flour without having to change the hydration rate or anything else.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 10:52:11 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Park.Pizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #671 on: August 21, 2008, 01:33:05 PM »
Pete,

You are a wonderful source for information on pizza. How do you retain all that information? Where do get the time.

Best wishes,

Tim ;D
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #672 on: August 21, 2008, 02:34:00 PM »
Tim,

Thanks for the kind words.

In answer to your questions, I would say that it basically comes down to having been blessed with a pretty good memory, and being detail oriented by nature. Also, I have learned through experience and practice how to become a better searcher--whether it is on this forum or using the commercial search engines--so I can usually find what I am looking for. Do this enough times and read what you find carefully, and you will develop a broad and comprehensive database of information. Also, since I like all kinds and styles of pizzas, and make just about all of them, I also learn from those experiences. Hopefully, all of these things have helped me become better organized and efficient, so it doesn't take me much time to crank out responses on the forum. In this regard, one of the best things I ever did was to take a course on typing in high school.

Peter

Offline thatonegirl

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #673 on: August 22, 2008, 01:34:31 PM »
Pete,

I use the King Arthur bread flour for this recipe as well. I love it! In fact I have two dough balls in the fridge right now for tonight, along with a DKM's chicago style :) Having the fam over to reap the benefits of my talents I now have from using this forum  ;D

Offline petesopizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #674 on: August 26, 2008, 11:12:07 PM »
Latest:

For my latest pizza adventure I have focused on texture and I am where I want to be.

3+ C        (King Arthur AP Flour stored in freezer)
1 5/8 C     (Britta Filtered Water as cold as my tap will get)
.5 tsp      (f'mans Bread Machine Yeast)
1  tsp      (Mortens Kosher Salt)
1  Tbs     (Domino Brown Sugar)

I mix 1 5/8 Cups water (Britta filtered) with the salt, brown sugar, and 2 C flour. Mix with KA paddle for 2 minutes then let autolyse for 20. Then I add 1 more cup flour and start a 6 minute mixing cycle with the dough hook. After 1 minute I add the yeast ten continue to add flour by the 1/8th C until it is barely sticking to the bottom and not at all the sides of the bowl (Tornadoing I call it). after 6 minutes I remove it from the hook and let it rest in the bowl for 10 minutes. Then I ball it and coat it with olive oil and let it cold ferment for 48-72 hours. When I am going to use it I pull it out and let it warm up for 45 minutes while my oven clean cycle it revving up (latch disabled by myself). When I am ready to put the pie in I turn off the oven so the broil doesn't come on and toss it in. I pull it by site when it appears done and this is usually about 4 minutes.

My only concern is adding flavor. If I try to add more salt it tastes too salty. Does olive oil contribute to a more flavorful dough? What do you do to make a more flavorful dough?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 11:14:08 PM by petesopizza »
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